Terminating BT phone line account.

The BT T&C for home line rental say:

"Ending the service

Once we have provided the service, you may tell us to stop providing it at any time by giving us 30 days' notice. We will accept notice via a range of methods including phone, e-mail, online chat and in writing. You can contact us to give notice using any of the contact details set out on your last BT bill or any other means of contact we have given you, for that purpose. If you are switching to another provider through an approved process, the notice you must give us will be 14 days. We can stop providing the service to you by giving you 28 days' written notice."

So what counts as 'switching to another provider through an approved process'?

Would this include porting the phone number to a VOIP provider?

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

So what counts as 'switching to another provider through an approved process'?

Would this include porting the phone number to a VOIP provider?

Not sure about VOIP, but as I understand it "approved process" means any migration process performed by Openreach (E.g. WLR -> WLR or WLR <-> MPF).

How is your broadband provided? The line in question, or a different one?

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 26-May-14 16:25:49)

Make sure that the VOIP provider gives access to the Emergency Services, particularly 999.

Keep in mind that the physical phone line, "copper", remains the property of OPENREACH BT generally (very few exceptions); and a Line Rental will be paid "somehow".

Also that OR BT will continue to be involved in its maintenance.

I would expect those types of transfer to be included but as the T&C use the words "approved process" I would like to argue that porting to a VOIP provider should be included as (AIUI) an Ofcom procedure.

If BT want to charge me 30 days rental, they should at least leave the line working, either for out going calls or with a new number for both outgoing and incoming calls. -IMHO

At the moment the line just gets killed when the port take place. I will terminate the existing ADSL service before I request the port just in case this causes a problem.

I'm getting confused.

Do you have a second broadband service/line on which you will be using the VOIP with this ported number?

Emergency calls can be made and I have now registered my address, so than you for making that point.

I plan to cease using my copper phone line completely. Surprisingly I found 'Vodafone' written of the manhole cover to which I hope to be indirectly connected.

How I contact the VOIP provider is not relevant to the question, but it it helps I can tell you that it won't be via my existing copper line.

My question is not about the VOIP. It is about your broadband . How that will be supplied.

Robertos is asking that question for good reasons.

Unless you have FTTP (Fibre To The Premises); or VIRGIN connections or similar, the likelihood is that your (future) Broadband including VOIP will continue to use OR BT copper, from your home to the existing PCP (with a short length of new "copper" to link to the FTTC), so that a (full) Line Rental will continue to be paid to the appropriate part of BT.

That Line Rental may not be obvious in the (new) ISP's billing - but it will be there!

I believe you are confusing ceasing a landline rental, with its attendant phone no., with porting the phone no. to a VOIP provider.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

I would like to argue that porting to a VOIP provider should be included as (AIUI) an Ofcom procedure.

BT's T&Cs are talking about switching the line rental to another provider through an approved process NOT porting just phone no. to another provider whether through an approved OFCOM process or not. You are not switching the line rental to another provider; you intend to cease it altogether.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

If BT want to charge me 30 days rental, they should at least leave the line working, either for outgoing calls or with a new number for both outgoing and incoming calls. -IMHO

It's not a Q of what BT wants. You have contractually agreed to give BT 30 days notice of ceasing the line rental. Beyond that they have no obligations to you. It is their line; they do with it whatever they will.

At the back of all this is that BT realises that when you switch line rental to another provider, the BT Group still receives the revenue from it, which they don't when you just port just phone no. to VOIP and cease the line rental.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

I believe you are confusing ceasing a landline rental, with its attendant phone no., with porting the phone no. to a VOIP provider

No confusion. It does appear that if I port the number then the line is ceased immediately. Presumably I would then have to pay 30 or maybe 14 days rental for a line that I can not use. There does not appear to be a way of avoiding this. If I were just to request a termination then I could use the line up to the end of the 30 days.

See http://www.voipfone.co.uk/PB_Porting_Numbers.php

BT's T&Cs are talking about switching the line rental to another provider through an approved process NOT porting just phone no. to another provider whether through an approved OFCOM process or not. You are not switching the line rental to another provider; you intend to cease it altogether.

That may well the the intention, but can you point to anything in the T&C which justifies the point that you make.

It's not a Q of what BT wants.

I would presume that BT's T&C bear some relationship to what they want.

At the back of all this is that BT realises that when you switch line rental to another provider, the BT Group still receives the revenue from it, which they don't when you just port just phone no. to VOIP and cease the line rental.

I expect you are right but are the T&Cs written in a way that exactly achieves this objective. They just use the words "If you are switching to another provider through an approved process"

To state the bleeding obvious, to use VoIP you need an Internet connection. The usual method is via a landline where your choice of providers are many, through a wireless connection or a satellite service. I suppose you could always piggy back onto someone else's service as well.

There are VoIP providers who give a full in/out service and others that only provide an out service. Some support emergency service calling, like 999, and other's don't. Some VoIP providers will allow an existing number to be used on their system and some can't or won't.

To successfully port a number into VoIP it must currently be connected to a landline and in an operational state. Ask a VoIP provider who provides a full service, with or without emergency functionality, to port the number in and your desires will be granted by proving a copy of your last bill.

Several things to bear in mind. 1) If your broadband service is not working, then voice calls via VoIP are not available. 2) If the power supply goes down, then you are in a communication blackout that may last for a considerable period of time. However in some cases an auto divert to another number for incoming calls is available. 3) Porting a number back to a landline or another VoIP provider may be impossible to achieve. 4) The speed of your connection plays an important part in the quality of calls in progress. 5) You might need to configure your router to be VoIP friendly. 6) Having a fixed landline for voice services is not to be sneezed at when surrounded with abnormal circumstances and the emergency services are required,especially if you are not in a coherent state of mind.

All other things considered, VoIP is very good, it, can save you a small fortune in call charges and has an array of extra features that are free. Think of you fixed line just as an insurance policy; you may never need it but when the chips are down, it's a godsend.

Just for the record, an emergency situation in our village saw ALL services lost except for the plain old telephone system, the only trouble being that few people had a basic telephone! Do have one of these connected toy your line just in case.

Indeed, but my point was that you don't need this info to answer my original question.

I do indeed have plans and I will be disappointed if I don't get a 100 fold increase in performance. I will believe I will get this service when the man with a digger gets a bit closer to my house.

If you want to show how clever you are, stop asking silly questions and refusing to answer perfectly sensible questions.

Good luck with your VOIP over the ether.

You snotty git!

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

To state the bleeding obvious, to use VoIP you need an Internet connection.

Why are you telling me this?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

To state the bleeding obvious, to use VoIP you need an Internet connection.

Why are you telling me this?

The response just happens to be in that position in this thread and was intended to bring the conversation back on track for the OP's to consider the points mentioned. Using VoIP requires a broadband service and it wasn't clear how the OP was getting that service. For sure, the number could be ported to VoIP but without the fundamentals in place it would be a pretty pointless exercise.

My entry could have been taken in the spirit it was intended but you decided to take umbrage. Why eludes me.

Thanks, I plan to use Voipfone. The requirement for power is certainly an issue if I discontinue my Pots line. I plan a standby power supply. My mobile phones will work from a car battery so I have some fall back arrangements. Last year my phone line was repaired 4 times, so it is not as if that was a perfect service.

Surprisingly I found 'Vodafone' written of the manhole cover to which I hope to be indirectly connected.

It doesn't go through there

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

To state the bleeding obvious, to use VoIP you need an Internet connection.

Why are you telling me this?

The response just happens to be in that position in this thread and was intended to bring the conversation back on track for the OP's to consider the points mentioned. Using VoIP requires a broadband service and it wasn't clear how the OP was getting that service. For sure, the number could be ported to VoIP but without the fundamentals in place it would be a pretty pointless exercise.

My entry could have been taken in the spirit it was intended but you decided to take umbrage. Why eludes me.

While I was penning my earlier response additionally information came to hand which leads me to conclude that the OP is probably switching to VM or FTTP neither of which require a landline. While the OP doesn't wish to divulge how he is about to get his internet connection, I don't understand; it would have been helpful to know!

Anyhow, as previously mention, VoIP has its pro and cons and is more than adequate, with more bells and whistles the average punter is ever likely to use but the service may not be there when you really need it. Therefore a back up landline remains a sensible adjunct.

So, what will be the carrier system for your VOIP data stream?

Could be, but for FTTP landline rental (which has a POTS phone number associated) is payable.

I'm sure the OP is misunderstanding something, but as he is being uncooperative it is difficult to find out what.

I didn't see any mention of FTTC/FTTP on the Voipfone website, just:-

Voipfone�s broadband service is capable of providing speeds of up to 24mb down and1.3mb up and is designed to work with our voice service � if you use our telephony service you will get the best out of it by using our broadband too

but maybe their site is out of date.

Does a check ...

Voipfone Broadband is available on this line with estimated speed of 4000 Kbps down and maximum upload speeds of 1000 Kbps. For full details of all the features available in this package, please see below you may also find package 2 to be more beneficial depending on your requirements.

Package 1: Voipfone Standard £22 Per Month Package 2: Voipfone Pro £35 Per Month

FTTC is available on that line, but not apparently from them.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 26-May-14 22:22:47)

For sure the service provider has a connection to what appears to be a Vodafone manhole, and a recent email implied that I would make use of this connection. I suppose the cables underneath this cover might be used by 3rd parties. I will inquire.

I wonder if we are talking C & W here?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I'm sure the OP is misunderstanding something,

It is clear from your posts that you think that. Why not work on the basis that this is not the case?

I am just trying to minimize my change over costs. It some ways it is surprising that BT and maybe Plusnet don't offer a residential line free VOIP service.

I would have used Sipgate as I have had a little used account with them for some years. Unfortunately Sipgate will no longer let you port numbers to their residential type accounts, I think as a consequence of some changes that Ofcom made about a year ago.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I'm sure the OP is misunderstanding something,

It is clear from your posts that you think that. Why not work on the basis that this is not the case?

Similarly why don't you work on the basis that it may be the case? Also that most of us here, certainly myself, are trying to help.

It is very common for people to ask the wrong question, because they don't understand their situation. All you had to do was answer a couple of simple questions (not just from me) to show this is not the case with you.

It all looks iffy to me.

OK, I see! Porting your # to VOIP provider ceases the landline immediately is just the way the system works. Can you not give BT 30 days notice and get VOIP provider to port # say 5 days from the end? Is that too risky?

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

That may well the the intention, but can you point to anything in the T&C which justifies the point that you make.

That 'Ending the Service' is a blanket T&C for each & every service you have with BT, one of which is the BT Telephony service which includes as the major component:

In reference to www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerOrders/control/termsandcondi...:

installation or takeover and rental of a fixed BT telephone line that may be provided using copper or fibre technology depending on where you live;

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

It some ways it is surprising that BT and maybe Plusnet don't offer a residential line free VOIP service.

How can they? They need a physical line to get the Net to & from your VOIP phone. You are really asking for BB w/out line rental. That's just not offered in UK or its just bundled up, but we do have fairly cheap BB compared with other countries which might do this.

Incidentally PN did once do VOIP phone only: Broadband Phone (VoIP).

Yet another one! They are coming thick and fast this holiday.

School's out for the Whitsun !

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

How can they? They need a physical line to get the Net to & from your VOIP phone. You are really asking for BB w/out line rental. That's just not offered in UK or its just bundled up, but we do have fairly cheap BB compared with other countries which might do this.

Just like other VOIP providers! Just provide the VOIP service without the physical connection. I presume they BT have a VOIP service for their FTTP customers.

My impression is that most VOIP is business orientated. (Skype aside) I don't know how these customers make their internet connections.

Incidentally PN did once do VOIP phone only: Broadband Phone (VoIP).

Were Plusnet to still do this I would consider them. Fortunately they don't take that approach with their email service so I may well remain an email only customer,

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

Just like other VOIP providers! Just provide the VOIP service without the physical connection.

I don't know what you mean by that. Please expound?

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

Just like other VOIP providers! Just provide the VOIP service without the physical connection.

Now that would be something. I've read back through this thread carefully as I fail to see how you will get VOIP to work on your Broadband service if you cut the existing phone line out of the equation.
Unless you have cable (Virgin) or FTTP you have to have some sort of telephone line connected for broadband to be provided over that. If you are thinking you can stop paying for the phone line and use VOIP you still need to connect to the VOIP service somehow.
I have VOIP via Sipgate, as I didn't transfer an existing number over but took a new one. Using a Camrivox UTA-151 connected to my router I do not need the computer on for it to work, but do need an Internet connection.
The Internet connection still includes line rental costs, even though I do not use the house landline.The majority of outgoing calls are made via mobile, as I have a good contract with unlimited minutes. I've tried using VOIP via the mobile but call quality is terrible due to the lag.
I had a business line with BT and took their Internet too on a project I worked on a few years ago. As part of the deal we get a second number, starting 05, which was VOIP via the router. Quite simply, it could not work without a phone line to carry the broadband.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

4) The speed of your connection plays an important part in the quality of calls in progress.

How much speed do you really need to make a good quality call.

Just for the record, an emergency situation in our village saw ALL services lost except for the plain old telephone system, the only trouble being that few people had a basic telephone! Do have one of these connected toy your line just in case.

Fortunately the BT branded phone I have will make and receive calls without power, despite what BT told me before I bought it.

I meant accounts like Sipgate and Voipfone offer now. They offer a VOIP service, clearly to access these services you need an connection to the Internet.

The retail customers that use the above services might also use a BT service were it available.

I actually have the BT SmartTalk application on my mobile phone which is an IP service.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

They offer a VOIP service, clearly to access these services you need an connection to the Internet.

So you will be retaining some sort of landline to access the Voipfone VOIP service and paying some sort of rental for it?

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

4) The speed of your connection plays an important part in the quality of calls in progress.

How much speed do you really need to make a good quality call.

My real life experience is that if a VoIP call is the only activity on your connection then the most modest of an internet service provision will suffice. Other traffic can serious impact on the quality of the call. You can limit that issue by giving greater priority to VoIP traffic through tweaks in your router but the only effective way to have a "nice" call every time, all the time, is a connection in excess of 1 Mbps up.

Our small office of five staff, and their VoIP phone and heavy internet usage is excellent on a FTTC service that has around 50 Mbps down and 8,5 Mbps up.

A real expert will probably come along soon to additionally respond to your question.

It could be using Gigaclear or B4rn in which case it would be pure fibre with no "additional" line rental.

Thanks. I have always struggled to make VOIP calls, but then I have never had a decent IP connection.

Ah - I was forgetting voipfone don't require you to take their broadband. Just like you to.

Gigaclear.

The prize is some pictures of the progress so far: http://ultrafastunderriver.com/

That answers the majority of the questions raised earlier then...

I just wish I could answer your original question but don't use VoIP. My guess though is you are terminating the landline and transferring the number. The contract is on the landline which you are not migrating anywhere else and therefore standard 30 days applies.

As someone else suggested see if the VoIP provider can delay taking the number over until near the end of the notice period and then that limits the amount of time you are paying for a line that you can't use.

So the line rental is bundled in but works out about the same:

In reference to www.gigaclear.com/home-use/:

Typical Monthly Cost Comparison
Item Wired Monthly Cost Range Gigaclear fibre costs
Broadband £12 � £24 .............................. £37
Line Rental £15.40 � £15.99 .................. £0.00

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

Thanks. I have always struggled to make VOIP calls, but then I have never had a decent IP connection.

Well I guess things are about to change dramatically for you that overcomes that issue. Usually having a new internet connection from any supplier will give a predicted speeds; do you know what they were?

I extensively use hosted VoIP from three different companies across a number of geographical locations ain the UK and abroad and very happy with the financial savings being made If my mobile latches onto a router, then call quality is generally fine for VoIP. I can also receive calls to my mobile which has an 01252 xxxxxx number.

Yes, I just get a bare internet connection.

I could order the service with Vonage VOIP. Vonage is a separate company and would cost be a few pounds more per month than Voipfone.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

Gigaclear.

The prize is some pictures of the progress so far: http://ultrafastunderriver.com/

Right then, we all have a clearer picture of what you are doing. Leave your landline in a working order and allow the VoIP provider to acquire the number for the VoIP service in his own time frame and take a hit on the chin for line rental payable for no service for a week or two.. Don't assume porting can be done in just a few days; it might, but expect it to take around 14 days to achieve. There is next to no down time during the switch over.

If you haven't settled on a hosted VoIP provider, I would like to recommend www.callmaster.co.uk - I also use Zen and DrayTEL

I had my BT phone line rental with IDNET and ported it to Sipgate.

It took a couple of weeks from the initial request and I received a full refund on the rental period not used.

I'm not sure about other providers but Sipgate allow the number to be diverted to a mobile when the internet connection is down which to my mind takes care of reliability concerns.

This is rather a strange thread given approximately four million people in this country have an internet connection which is not a phone line and anyway VOIP DID numbers can be used without internet to divert to other phones or mobiles. AIUI the only way to transfer a BT number was to cease the line. So all in all this appears to be a common use case.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

OK, I see! Porting your # to VOIP provider ceases the landline immediately is just the way the system works. Can you not give BT 30 days notice and get VOIP provider to port # say 5 days from the end? Is that too risky?

I have done that with mobile phone contracts. However from what I have learned, if I give BT the 30 days notice, they will block any number porting.

I expect I will also have to pay for the call package, call minder and caller display.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

I expect I will also have to pay for the call package, call minder and caller display.

You can cancel those, almost instantaneously I believe, beforehand via your MyBT for those not in contract.

Thanks, that does appear to be the case for the latter two. AIUI if I change the calling plan to one where there is no charge I get locked into a 12 month contract.

It may have been mentioned somewhere, that when you terminate the line there is likely to be one or two days total downtime where it will appear to be out of service and nothing can be done. I have just been through it today - and I want to move my PSTN to a BT VOIP line (number already owned), so no change of provider! You can however, dictate the day that the port takes place on - anytime within the notice period.

Edited by MHC (Wed 28-May-14 15:57:55)

Thanks for the warning.

I specified today as the termination date ...

10:00 - line has "gone" and calling it gets, "No longer in service"

I'll wait and see when it comes back as a VOIP connection.


edit to add:

The VOIP overlay happened at 11:00 - just had to speak with BT to get the CLI changed to reflect the geographic 01xxx number rather than 056xx.

Asked them about the timescales. Apparently t can be done that quickly if the notification filters through the various systems quickly and the VOIP provider acts immediately. Some however, only do their updates once a day which could lead to a longer downtime.

Now to get a Cisco interface working on the lines - I can then use DECT handsets.

Edited by MHC (Fri 30-May-14 11:43:09)

Thanks. I was waiting for a 2nd post!