Is BT lying to me in this chat transcript?

Long story short I have 6mbit ADSL with Virgin. A BT salesperson I chatted with today is implying that ADSL with them will be better. Is this true? I thought the limiting factor was the quality of the line between me and the exchange. Which will be the same regardless of the provider.

Long story long see chat transcript below:

Diana: Hi

Diana: How may I assist you with your order today?

Mark: I want to get BT infinity, according to http://www.samknows.com/broadband/broadband_checker?... my exchange is enabled.

Mark: But when I try to order it says the package is not available for me.

Diana: May I please have your Telephone Number, Postal Code and Door Number / House Name to check availability?

Mark: <REDACTED>

Mark: <REDACTED>

Diana: I have done a check and the estimated connection speed available at your address is 11Mb.

Diana: Unfortunately BT Infinity isn't available in your area as of yet. Unfortunately there isn't a date listed when you can expect it, so I cannot check when it will be available, but there should be updates coming soon.    

Diana: We are trying to upgrade the whole of the UK by the end of 2015, so hopefully there would be a date available soon.  

Mark: I currently have 6mbit from virgin

Mark: Would switching to BT improve this or is my line limit likely 6mbit?

Diana: I have done a check and the estimated connection speed available at your address is 11Mb.

Diana: This is 4Mb faster then what you get now.

Mark: But is that guaranteed or could I end up in a contract and still receive the 6 mbit (or less)?

Diana: No provider is allowed to guarantee speeds, however our estimates are accurate.

Mark: OK and what would my monthly cost be (including line rental)? I pay virgin 25.98 currently, for unlimited download.

Diana: We've got some great packages available today, would you like me to run through some options with you in order to find the best one for you?

Mark: Sure, I only require unlimited internet. No other extras.

Diana: No TV?>

Mark: No thanks

Diana: I would recommend our Totally Unlimited Broadband  and Weekend Calls package for you.

Diana: This package includes the BT Home Hub 4 with download speed of up to 16Mbps. You will also get free access to BT Sport, BT Smart Talk and BT Cloud Apps.

Diana: This package is £8 a month for the first 6 months and £16 a month thereafter plus line rental. There is also a one off £6.95 delivery charge which can be added on to the first bill.

Diana: A £100 Sainsbury's Voucher is provided with this offer.

Mark: And line rental is?

Diana: The line rental is £15.99 monthly - alternatively you can pay up front with line rental discount for £159.84 - this gives you 12 months line rental for the price of 10.

Mark: So after 6 months I would pay 31.99/month

Mark: More than virgin

Mark: I would switch but have concerns my speeds wont improve

Diana: Yes.

Diana: Ok, what causes the concern?

Mark: That i will be stuck in a contract, paying more for the same speed.

Diana: Ok, but I explained the speed would be 4Mb more then what you get now? I do not understand where the doubt and concern has come from.

Mark: Because you can't guarantee any speed, and my understanding is that limits are due to physical properties of the line.

Diana: As mentioned, no provider can guarantee speeds, they are not allowed to due to the nature of broadband. It never remains at one consistent speed. Maybe you need time to have a think. Is there anything else I can help with today?

Mark: You are right virgin do not guarantee a speed either. I have received 6 mbit pretty consistently over this line however, will you not use the same technology, hence offer comparable speeds? Or is there a technical advantage to BT that I am not aware of?

Diana: Virgin use different lines to BT.

Mark: OK. Also, if BT infinity became available during my contract, would there be a penalty for switching?

Diana: You can upgrade to Infinity when available without penalty.

Mark: Great, thanks I will have a think about this.

Use this checker to check your phone number and then the Full Address check www.dslchecker.bt.com

Most of that sort of makes sense, except for a bit at the end where she got mixed up. Virgin ADSL does not use different lines to BT.

However it is possible you are on an "up to 8mbps" service from VM, which could feasibly give you 6Mbps or so actual throughput. If you are able to get the line stats from your modem/router that should be easily detected.

A possible but less certain check would be to run the BT Performance Test, (ignore ll the red instructions for now), and continue to the Further Diagnostics at the bottom of the initial results page. Copy and paste the full contents of both the down and up results text boxes. We don't need to see the graphics.

If you put your phone number into this checker you should see estimates from the same database as the BT Retail one she is using is based on. Please copy and paste the estimates table, and the line above it but editing out your phone number.

I don't have a telephone number.

As far as I'm aware Virgin and BT use the same network (BT Wholesale) though you might be on a LLU (Local Loop Unbundled), exchange..

BT will have better priority on its network over Virgin's ADSL service (if it is on BT Wholesale that is)

But personally I wouldn't bother with BT as it seems quite expensive for what it is, I have had experience with BT and other ADSL services myself and in some cases BT can be worse.

The fact is its all dependant on your location from the exchange, and what exchange your on.

Some exchanges depend on the BT Wholesale network to provide services and this can become congested at busy periods.

If you are looking to switch provider and want a good service and cheaper price, may I suggest plus.net as they use BT's network (and are part of the BT Group company) and they do unlimited broadband & line rental from around £25 per month (not including any offers)

Or if Virgin cable is available I'm sure you could get a very good deal from them for just broadband...

click on the address checker option and enter your full address

So use the full address checker http://dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/ADSLChecker.AddressOutput

In reply to a post by marksmith155:

I don't have a telephone number.

?????
If you are on ADSL then you are getting that through a telephone line, and that telephone line has a number and a working phone service.

Are you really on ADSL? Or are you on VM Cable and your 6Mbps is actually 6 MegaBytes per second?

The connection stats on my router are:

Modem
ADSL Firmware Version 3.4.4.1.0.1
Modem Status Connected
DownStream Connection Speed 6648 Kbps
UpStream Connection Speed 1088 Kbps
VPI 0
VCI 38


The results of the wholesale broadband performance test are:

Down: 5.49
Up: 0.91
Latency: 201.13

What are your line statistics for your line?

Yeah the modem is connected to the phone line, with a filter. I don't have a phone connected and virgin certainly didn't tell me if I have a telephone number. I only use it for internet.

WBC ADSL 2+ Up to 11 -- 6.5 to 15 Available
WBC ADSL 2+ Annex M Up to 11 Up to 1 6.5 to 15 Available
ADSL Max Up to 6 -- 5 to 8 Available
WBC Fixed Rate 2 -- -- Available
Fixed Rate 2 -- -- Available
Other Offerings
Copper Multicast -- -- -- Available

Now you know where she got the 11 from

Edited by deleted (Tue 10-Jun-14 19:32:58)

in this case BT are correct (to a point) but I think you have a fault on your line from what I saw of your latency and with that range you could easily obtain 8mbps

Edited by mlmclaren (Tue 10-Jun-14 19:34:18)

Yeah used to be on virgin cable. They were awesome. Since moving here this was all I could get.

If I moved to plus.net and in a month my exchange gets BT infinity will they be able to offer me a comparable package or would I be better just sitting tight on virgin so I can jump as soon as it is available?

Plus.net could offer you fibre yes and it would be cheaper than BT too.

Interesting. Thanks.

As the others have said then, please use your full address in either BatBoy's or my checker. Don't use just the postcode.

Could you also see the attenuation and noise margin figures with those stats, and perhaps the mode. (ADSL, ADSL2+, G.992.n). It rather looks as though you are on ADSL2+ but with something on your line causing a low speed.

We need those estimate results, and also the other stats I've just asked for . That's because the full stats tell us what you should get, even more accurately than the estimators do. That in turn tells us if there is something clobbering your actual connection speed. In which case we may be able to help you fix it.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 10-Jun-14 19:39:07)

As you don't want TV, Plusnet would be fine.

Note according to that checker, there is no FTTC coming soon to your cabinet. Try this: http://fttc-check.alc.im

Edited by deleted (Tue 10-Jun-14 19:38:42)

We need to find out why he has under 7Mbps though.

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

in this case BT are correct (to a point) but I think you have a fault on your line from what I saw of your latency

Or it could be Peak Time Throttling on Virgin National.

Just thought i would mention that plus.net have an offer on at the minute http://www.plus.net/home-broadband/

that wouldn't give him a latency of 200+ms though surely?

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

BT will have better priority on its network over Virgin's ADSL service (if it is on BT Wholesale that is)

Pardon? Are you implying that BT Retail gets a better service from BT Wholesale than other ISPs?

If you have proof of that you should contact Ofcom. If it turned out to be true BT would get a serious shouting at. That would pretty much be a violation of all that Ofcom holds holy.

Full address results: http://i.imgur.com/rzMxaq3.png

And more stats from my router: http://i.imgur.com/XYRqZG2.png

Maybe he's on wifi?

I'm sorry if I'm wrong but I have always been under the impression that BT's broadband products always dominated priority over any other ISP using the "BT Wholesale Network"

If I'm wrong, I apologise

Throttling would not affect connection speed, hence why seeing the attenuation and noise margin figures will help to see if its just a line issue for why they are getting just 6.5 Meg.

The fact connection has a high upload points to it being C&W LLU which is what Virgin used where available.

And also contrary to what one posted suggested BT Retail does not get preferential treatment at exchanges, if there was evidence of this Sky and TalkTalk who combined have more customers than BT would be making a big fuss in the courts.

Very true!

I am. I know the test specifically said to use ethernet, but am on a mac with no adapter.

When I had virgin cable in my last house I got 50mbit over wifi no bother. I don't care about tiny pings but I do want more throughput

From these stats you should be getting at least 10mbps sync, your lines speed profile may be stuck.

Either you have a line/wiring problem or Virgin has capped the ADSL connection speeds

http://www.coolwebhome.co.uk/calc/index.php?param=RG... shows that you should be able to get 13000Kbps to 16200Kbps on a good clean line.

switching ISP will probably help you at the moment to save money and achieve a better connection.

and with Virgin soon to sell off there national ADSL service it could be a step in the right direction.

The difference is down to what the various providers buy in terms of capacity, he who spends the most gets the most.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Throttling would not affect connection speed,

No-one said it would, the question was regardling latency.

That I know already, and i'm thinking that Virgin don't have as much capacity as BT....

No guarantee; but connect a corded phone to the appropriate socket at the NTE - the box where the Land Line Phone Line comes in to your home.

If you hear Dialling Tone, dial 17070

That may or may NOT give you the Land Line Phone Number associated with that line.


Then if you do get the automated response, select Option 2, Quiet Line Test.

If you hear any untoward noise, apart from a very low volume hum, the n you should report it to your Land Line PHONE Supplier, as a PHONE Line problem - avoiding mentioning Broadband.

That is about the only way you may get results, repairs etc.

You may never normally use that Land Line - BUT if you are receiving Broadband over that Land line, this is the way to proceed.

And if you have any intentions of upgrading to FTTC, if and when available, it is even more essential that the Land Line is "clean" and "fit for purpose".

---------------------

If there were no untoward noises, reconnect your "normal" internal phone extensions; and repeat that QLT again.

If you hear untoward noises NOW, then you have to track down the source/s etc and sort out your internal wiring - your responsibility.

Right. We are making progress .

There is definitely something up with your connection. The 30.6dB attenuation with a 6dB noise margin should easily give you the estimated 11Mbps. So we need to see if we can find a simple cause, as otherwise there is a high possibility that a migration will not improve things.

(Incidentally I think you may need to find the telephone number in order to migrate. Do you in fact have any sort of landline handset? In most cases plugging one into the dangly filter and dialling 17070 Option 2 will tell you the number).

Have a read first of this page. Then this one.

In particular, do you have a Sky box on the line?

They generally don't as they have abandoned the national ADSL service, and never really did buy enough capacity, which is very different to BT getting preference.

Sensible throttling should also not affect latency to the point of it being 200ms either.

Good job we found out it was wifi

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

They generally don't as they have abandoned the national ADSL service, and never really did buy enough capacity, which is very different to BT getting preference.

That is mainly what I meant, though i apologise for not explaining that when I first submitted the post.

As we can see now, it's not Virgin National, it's LLU.

WiFi should only impact latency by 1 to 5 ms usually.

How do we know its LLU?

My thoughts too..

Mainly because of the upstream. Looks like your initial thought of it being a line fault is correct

Because its more than 448kbps, I think some customers can get 1mb upstreams on Virgin too.

Well I've seen enough of them, Normally the extensions or old equipment, like NTE, Micro Filter.... causes issue.

Also most LLU providers in my experience end up jumping the SNR up when there's a fault like this, where wholesale is more stubborn.

Thought I would post a link for instructions to rule out your wiring at home disrupting your service...

http://bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/13567...

Please not instead of plugging in a phone, plug in your ADSL Modem/Router!!

Edited by mlmclaren (Tue 10-Jun-14 20:15:38)

Also if your trying to get your phone number, try logging into your Virgin Media account and it will surely be listed on there somewhere.

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

That is mainly what I meant, though i apologise for not explaining that when I first submitted the post.

Phew. Or..I dunno. Maybe it'd be fun to watch the fireworks

From those stats you should be getting 12-13 Meg sync speed even.

Get hold of any phone handset and dial 1470 17070. It will tell you your phone no. as 'Your circuit is defined as ...'.

The BT chat was accurate except that she mixed up Virgin ADSL with Virgin Cable near the end.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

From those stats you should be getting 12-13 Meg sync speed even.

you don't get ADSL2+ on Virgin ADSL unless you pay extra for it, it's most likely only ADSL
I forget where it shows that in the web ui on a Netgear router, might have to use telnet

Even if its JUST ADSL G.DMT mode, then we would expect a higher sync closer to the full 8 Meg sync at that attenuation

I'd just move to BT. Better speed, and the chance to grab infinity when/if becomes available.

Moved back to them at start of year, and have best ever speeds.

In reply to a post by bmn0:

it's most likely only ADSL

That's right! That's why I added 3dB to OP's attn. for my ADSL2+ estimate. I wanted to verify the veracity of BT's chat, which is subject of this thread.

If he were on ADSL2+ already then my estimate would be more like 15 Meg.

In reply to a post by bmn0:

you don't get ADSL2+ on Virgin ADSL unless you pay extra for it, it's most likely only ADSL

1088kbps upstream sync?

In reply to a post by jroadley:

I'd just move to BT. Better speed ....

How/Why will he get better speed?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by jroadley:

I'd just move to BT. Better speed ....

How/Why will he get better speed?

I also agree with this...

I helped a customer of mine switch from O2 to BT and they lost nearly 5mb download and 0.2mb upload and there attenuation became higher... then they switched to sky and there attenuation came down a bit but not as much as much as there O2 connection was and they gained an extra 0.8mbps over BT...

If the OP was to move then surely it would be to someone who could match or better the deal he currently gets... hence my suggestion of plus.net... and the switch would also be easier as he can use his own router from the start date saving him postage costs and the user can also switch to an FTTC product once enabled.

The same How/Why applies. We have not established why he isn't getting high speeds already. Until we do that, or at least rule out everything we can, migrating would be a simple leap in the dark. Not even a leap of faith.

One thing I'd like to know is what router or modem are you using. The stats page makes no mention of modulation type which makes me wonder if it doesn't support ADSL2+ in which case 6M might be right for a good line.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The same How/Why applies. We have not established why he isn't getting high speeds already. Until we do that, or at least rule out everything we can, migrating would be a simple leap in the dark. Not even a leap of faith.

I couldn't agree more.... My apologies for going off topic.

Looks like a Netgear.

It might be a DGN1000 as Virgin did supply these a while back.... or it could be a DG834 but what version?

It is a Netgear DGN1000. Firmware version V2.1.00.19_VG

ADSL 2+ capable then..

Go into the routers web GUI (192.168.x.x)

The navigate Setup > ADSL Settings and then tell us what the DSL Mode is....

It should be Auto (multi-mode), select ADSL2+ and it will then resync the line with the exchange... then check your line speed again...

Also just in case hers the documentation on your router: http://documentation.netgear.com/dgn1000/enu/202-105...

Edited by mlmclaren (Fri 13-Jun-14 13:47:31)