This line has jumpers in place

I notice the BT Wholesale DSL checker www.dslchecker.bt.com has started declaring "This line has jumpers in place.". Does anyone know what this means and why it's important?

Might this be of some help?

In reference to www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/aboutus/glossary.do:

LIJs

Left in Jumper(s). A process in which a Public Switched Telephone Network (PSTN) line pair is only switched off in software, and remembered, so that software can switch on again when required. The jumper wire pair at the Main Distribution Frame (MDF) is left in place, instead of having to be removed.

A bit more poking around shows this is related to LLU provision.

Of the phone numbers I have checked, those on a non-BT telephone service have left in jumpers and those on BT have not.

Edited by caffn8me (Sun 17-May-15 08:48:43)

My follow that page

Added:
+ This line does not have left in jumpers.

I also wondered what that meant

the edit to my original post should explain it

My BT line has it though.

Is it possible that the jumpers previously connected ADSL service and were left in place when the line was moved to FTTC?

In reply to a post by caffn8me:

Is it possible that the jumpers previously connected ADSL service and were left in place when the line was moved to FTTC?

Yes. That's exactly what it means, left in jumpers in the cabinet from when the line had previously been FTTC.

If someone orders ADSL these will need removing by an engineer before the service will work. I'm not sure why the public need to know this though.

So it means the line has FTTC on it?

My BT line has this as well. Very curious as to what it means, and what (if any) affect it has on the line.

Sorry to disappoint! My line gives: This line has jumpers in place.

My line has only ever been BT ... I have had the number for 35 years and always with BT and never migrated to anyone else.

Ditto... although not 35 years.

Just had a look and:-

This line does not have left in jumpers.

No FTTC or LLU available from my 20CN exchange (EO) just ADSL.

My adsl line has 'This line does not have left in jumpers.'

My fibre line has 'This line has jumpers in place.'

Both with Zen for broadband & phone.

FYI

(A general response).

I think several people have been confused by Icaras's post.

In reply to a post by Icaras:

In reply to a post by caffn8me:

Is it possible that the jumpers previously connected ADSL service and were left in place when the line was moved to FTTC?

Yes. That's exactly what it means, left in jumpers in the cabinet from when the line had previously been FTTC.

If someone orders ADSL these will need removing by an engineer before the service will work. I'm not sure why the public need to know this though.

I think he meant to say either "from when the line had previously been ADSLx" or "from when the line had been upgraded to FTTC". Both mean the same, but I think he might have started with the second, changed it to the first, and made a mistake in the editing.

I too have the "This line has jumpers in place". BT Retail line and FTTC from Plusnet.

All the previous posts follow the pattern suggested by my version of his post.

Mine says "This line does not have left in jumpers." it only seems to be displayed when checking by a phone number and not by address.

I assume this gets changed when you get put on FTTC for easy switch back to ADSLx.

Still currently ADSLx and has always been that, although we have partly installed FTTP with all hardware in the Pit/Chamber and up pole just no blown fibre, been that way for a few years now, but is now due to be completed soon I hope.

Paul

Edited by PaulKirby (Sun 17-May-15 12:11:43)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

(A general response).

I think several people have been confused by Icaras's post.

In reply to a post by Icaras:

In reply to a post by caffn8me:

Is it possible that the jumpers previously connected ADSL service and were left in place when the line was moved to FTTC?

Yes. That's exactly what it means, left in jumpers in the cabinet from when the line had previously been FTTC.

If someone orders ADSL these will need removing by an engineer before the service will work. I'm not sure why the public need to know this though.

I think he meant to say either "from when the line had previously been ADSLx" or "from when the line had been upgraded to FTTC". Both mean the same, but I think he might have started with the second, changed it to the first, and made a mistake in the editing.

I too have the "This line has jumpers in place". BT Retail line and FTTC from Plusnet.

All the previous posts follow the pattern suggested by my version of his post.

No I didn't mention ADSL jumpers. It's hard to explain because it's not something that the public should have any knowledge of, it isn't necessary.

We call the wires in the cabinet linking to the FTTC tie pairs "jumpers". So if the checker says your line has jumpers it means you probably currently have an FTTC connection.

Alternatively, it means your physical line in the cabinet still has left in FTTC jumpers. These will stop ADSL from working as your line is still connected to the fibre cabinet. These "left in FTTC jumpers" need removing before ADSL will work. I know exactly what I'm trying to say but it's hard to explain, if there's anything you don't understand I'll do my best to clarify for you.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

So it means the line has FTTC on it?

No, it means that your line is physically connected by jumpers to the FTTC cabinet. So the previous person who used your E-side (the cable from the exchange to the cabinet), or your D-side (the cable from the cabinet to your house) had an active FTTC service.

Edited by deleted (Sun 17-May-15 12:53:31)

I am seeing jumpers in place message on a line that has an active VDSL connection.

I also see a message saying:
"This line does not have left in jumpers."
On a line that never had FTTC but does have adslMax.

Tom - www.mouselike.org

Edited by deleted (Sun 17-May-15 12:57:49)

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I notice the BT Wholesale DSL checker www.dslchecker.bt.com has started declaring "This line has jumpers in place.". Does anyone know what this means and why it's important?

Mine also says FTTP on Demand is available. Does that mean it is or that the checker has not been updated to reflect that new orders are not being taken?

Edited by Andrue (Sun 17-May-15 13:10:20)

I know it's difficult, but "That's exactly what it means, left in jumpers in the cabinet from when the line had previously been FTTC" is what has caused confusion.

That says the message "jumpers are in place" occurs only after FTTC has been removed.

My change to that says it occurs when FTTC is present.

What I think you are now saying is that my version is always true, and your version also true until the jumpers are removed to allow ADSLx. A line that has never had FTTC won't have jumpers in place.

Isn't yours a different question altogether, and not related to the quote you give? FTTPoD hasn't been mentioned in the thread.

Anyway, AIUI the "Available" never went away on the BTW checker. But I haven't seen any mention of orders being taken again by Openreach.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Anyway, AIUI the "Available" never went away on the BTW checker. But I haven't seen any mention of orders being taken again by Openreach.

You probably won't see FTTPod come back until G.FAST is fully available and people on that which want the fibre installed the last little bit from the pit/chamber by pole into the building, that is when you will probably be able to buy that option.

But I maybe wrong, but that's what it looks like to me.

Paul

Changes on fibre rollout as part of g.fast and a fod2 product after trials

Edited by MrSaffron (Mon 18-May-15 09:25:45)

It's nothing to do with whether a line is LLU or not.

Instead of having to send an engineer to the cabinet to physically remove the jumpers when someone cancels FTTC or moves house, Openreach are now disabling the FTTC port remotely.

This means that if the user ever wants to take a new FTTC service in the future or someone else takes over the line, then the service can be reactivated without an engineer visit.

Of course this is provided that there are spare ports at the fibre cab. If the fibre cabinet reaches capacity, such lines are liable to have their jumpers disconnected.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I know it's difficult, but "That's exactly what it means, left in jumpers in the cabinet from when the line had previously been FTTC" is what has caused confusion.

That says the message "jumpers are in place" occurs only after FTTC has been removed.

My change to that says it occurs when FTTC is present.

What I think you are now saying is that my version is always true, and your version also true until the jumpers are removed to allow ADSLx. A line that has never had FTTC won't have jumpers in place.

Yeah you're right! A line that has never had ADSL will not have the left in jumpers message.

When someone cancels FTTC OR leave the jumpers in place, the thinking is that the next service on the line is likely to be FTTC again, so no one would need to go to the cabinet and it can all be done remotely. If however the next order after the FTTC cancellation is ADSL then a visit to the cabinet is required to remove those jumpers.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Changes on fibre rollout as part of g.fast and a fid2 product after trials

Ok, I am aware of G.Fast but what's FID2?
Is it for degrade/error detection etc ?

Paul

In reply to a post by Icaras:

Yeah you're right! A line that has never had ADSL FTTC(?) will not have the left in jumpers message.

Never had FTTC and I have the jumper message.

Across has it right .... and I agree with his 'why the public need to know this' comment as well.

A touchscreen typo FoD2

In reply to a post by Banger:

Never had FTTC and I have the jumper message.

That they are in place, or that they are not? What exactly does it say?

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 18-May-15 13:09:52)

To be fair Bob, this is a storm in a tea cup.

If required, they will be used, if not required they will be recovered. Most provision tasks have a note on them these days stating to check for FTTC jumpers. If not checked, then this could leave the punter with no adsl service.

As mentioned, why this needs to be on a checker the public use is beyond me.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

As mentioned, why this needs to be on a checker the public use is beyond me.

I suggest you ask BT Wholesale.

CBA Batboy

Looks like you'll never know, then.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

To be fair Bob, this is a storm in a tea cup.

If required, they will be used, if not required they will be recovered. Most provision tasks have a note on them these days stating to check for FTTC jumpers. If not checked, then this could leave the punter with no adsl service.

As mentioned, why this needs to be on a checker the public use is beyond me.

I think it could be that many ISP checkers work from the same database, and it could be useful information for their provisioning teams. There may even be a BT Wholesale "installation" price implication.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 18-May-15 15:01:10)

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

A touchscreen typo FoD2

Oooh
I gather that would be for the last little bit of copper replacement?

Paul

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by Banger:

Never had FTTC and I have the jumper message.

That they are in place, or that they are not? What exactly does it say?

Your wooly jumpers are not in place as its summer.

That's what we'd expect then. Your original post could have meant yours said they were in place.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by Icaras:

Yeah you're right! A line that has never had ADSL FTTC(?) will not have the left in jumpers message.

What the hell is wrong with me at the moment?! Haha yeah that's what I meant!

A line that has never had FTTC will not have the left in jumpers message.

At last we completely agree .

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

At last we completely agree .

Well I'm sure we always did! I need to remember proof read before hitting continue

In reply to a post by troublegum:

Instead of having to send an engineer to the cabinet to physically remove the jumpers when someone cancels FTTC or moves house, Openreach are now disabling the FTTC port remotely.

This means that if the user ever wants to take a new FTTC service in the future or someone else takes over the line, then the service can be reactivated without an engineer visit.

Of course this is provided that there are spare ports at the fibre cab. If the fibre cabinet reaches capacity, such lines are liable to have their jumpers disconnected.

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I'm trying to understand this left in jumpers concept. I'm not quite sure I understand the last paragraph, if someone can help please. From my understanding, the left in jumpers in the green cab/pcp are needed for FTTC to work, so why would the jumpers from the PCP be disconnected if the fibre cab reaches capacity? Thanks.

Left in FTTC jumpers go to an allocated DSLAM port.

If all the other DSLAM ports are in use/allocated to customers working services, then there are no spare ports for any new services that might need connecting.
However, if there are lines running though a DSLAM port which is not used, ie the line is stopped, and/or the DSL service is no longer required, then Openreach visit the cab and make the original line a straight DEL , then use the newly freed up port to provide service to the new customer.

The above is usually done on the same job instructions, so the engineer’s notes might say ‘recover jumpers from line XXXXXXXXX , to reuse on line YYYYYYYYYY’

Hope this explanation helps.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Left in FTTC jumpers go to an allocated DSLAM port.

If all the other DSLAM ports are in use/allocated to customers working services, then there are no spare ports for any new services that might need connecting.
However, if there are lines running though a DSLAM port which is not used, ie the line is stopped, and/or the DSL service is no longer required, then Openreach visit the cab and make the original line a straight DEL , then use the newly freed up port to provide service to the new customer.

The above is usually done on the same job instructions, so the engineer’s notes might say ‘recover jumpers from line XXXXXXXXX , to reuse on line YYYYYYYYYY’

Hope this explanation helps.

That really does help, I now get it. Thanks so much!

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The above is usually done on the same job instructions, so the engineer’s notes might say ‘recover jumpers from line XXXXXXXXX , to reuse on line YYYYYYYYYY’

Which is all well and good until the engineer actually removes the jumpers from line ZZZZZZZZ. Though apparently if they do that too often they will get the sack. Engineer did that to my brother recently and after diagnosing the problem with him and launching into an explanation I got a "don't bother I know all about it". Turns out he had a tribunal hearing (he is an Employment Judge) where an engineer was sacked for doing this too often.

Hopefully with FTTP this is going to be far less likely as there should be a lot less moving of splices about.

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

Hopefully with FTTP this is going to be far less likely as there should be a lot less moving of splices about.

Should be never. Once spliced that’s it, a permanent connection has been made. If they envisaged it to be an “cross-connect” then those connections would be presented on connectors allowing patching.

I suspect there might be "spare" fibres than helpful engineers move people to if there are faults. So while should be less it won't be zero.

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The above is usually done on the same job instructions, so the engineer’s notes might say ‘recover jumpers from line XXXXXXXXX , to reuse on line YYYYYYYYYY’

Which is all well and good until the engineer actually removes the jumpers from line ZZZZZZZZ. Though apparently if they do that too often they will get the sack. Engineer did that to my brother recently and after diagnosing the problem with him and launching into an explanation I got a "don't bother I know all about it". Turns out he had a tribunal hearing (he is an Employment Judge) where an engineer was sacked for doing this too often.

Hopefully with FTTP this is going to be far less likely as there should be a lot less moving of splices about.

But why would an engineer recover jumpers from line ZZZZZZZZZ if his job notes say to recover from line XXXXXXXXX?

In reply to a post by psayam:

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The above is usually done on the same job instructions, so the engineer’s notes might say ‘recover jumpers from line XXXXXXXXX , to reuse on line YYYYYYYYYY’

Which is all well and good until the engineer actually removes the jumpers from line ZZZZZZZZ. Though apparently if they do that too often they will get the sack. Engineer did that to my brother recently and after diagnosing the problem with him and launching into an explanation I got a "don't bother I know all about it". Turns out he had a tribunal hearing (he is an Employment Judge) where an engineer was sacked for doing this too often.

Hopefully with FTTP this is going to be far less likely as there should be a lot less moving of splices about.

But why would an engineer recover jumpers from line ZZZZZZZZZ if his job notes say to recover from line XXXXXXXXX?

Same reason why the postman might put the neighbours post in your box, or someone calls you up and it’s a wrong number.

As per what Gary says, plus a question. Have you ever seen inside some of the older PCPs? It's amazing how rarely they get things wrong. Especially on a freezing cold day in rain and a gale.

Still not sure i'm getting how the jumpers from the pcp connect into the dslam. So in a normal adsl setup, I understand the twisted pair would come from the exchange into the pcp's e-side and then leave from the pcp's d-side to the customer.

But with fttc, we obviously have fibe optic coming into the dslam, but this is where things get murky for me. What route is taken here? Also exactly where is the vdsl signal injected? Thanks.

The line is intercepted in the PCP, a tie pair is connected to the E side and takes it into the DSLAM where the VDSL is inserted, then another tie pair takes line back to the PCP where it connects to the D side pair and to the end user.

(Adding for the questioner).

With a patch panel in the PCP permanently connected to the DSLAM, so the engineer doesn't need to access the FTTC cabinet. This being one of the reasons some very old PCPs were re-shelled, to make room for the patch panel.