Jumpers(again!)

Does having jumpers in place on your line reduce the broadband speed you get?

Edit:
Sorry, I didn't spot the newbie label.

Welcome to the forums.

A more helpful answer is that any such effect will be minor. At worst they add double the cable distance between the PCP (phone cabinet) and the FTTC cabinet to your distance from the exchange.
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That's a woolly question. Here's my line details:-

Telephone Number 0161xxxxxxx on Exchange STEPPING HILL is served by Cabinet nn

FTTC Range A (Clean) 60 39.8 16.3 9.9 -- Available
FTTC Range B (Impacted) 50.6 30 15.8 7.2 -- Available
WBC ADSL 2+ Up to 4 -- 2.5 to 6.5 Available
WBC ADSL 2+ Annex M Up to 4 Up to 0.5 2.5 to 6.5 Available
ADSL Max Up to 3 -- 2 to 6 Available
WBC Fixed Rate 1 -- -- Available
Fixed Rate 1 -- -- Available
Other Offerings
FTTP on Demand 330 30 -- Available
Fibre Multicast -- -- -- Available
Copper Multicast -- -- -- Available

For all ADSL and WBC Fibre to the Cabinet (FTTC or WBC SOGEA) services, the stable line rate will be determined during the first 10 days of service usage.

This line has jumpers in place.

They add considerably to my broadband speed.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 28-Oct-15 22:42:04)

OK I'll try again then

Does having jumpers in place make my line 'impacted' (ie. do jumpers prevent a line from being 'clean') and hence slower than it would be if it were 'clean'?

No. Jumpers are fine, they don't affect you at all. Ignore them.

As BatBoy says. No, they will not make it "unclean".

I hope I did my edit before you read my post? You may have missed it - so I apologise for my levity if you did.

Thanks for re-assurance re jumpers - I was looking for a reason why my line is 'impacted' delivering a downstream line rate of 18.7 in the 'impacted range of 24.9 to 12.5 (compared to a 'clean' range of 32.4 to 22.4).

It's the jumpers that connect your line to the link between the PCP and FTTP cabinets. Without them you don't get FTTC.

Was your FTTC a self-install? If so, please can you tell us which socket in the house it is connected to.

Though you are correct Bob, every line has jumpers in place, exchange and cab jumpers, whether PSTN, ADSL or FTTC.

I have no idea why this is still on the availability checker! It's confusing for people and totally irrelevant

All it means is if the line has jumpers left in place then these need to be removed before ADSL can be ordered.

Conversely, it also means that if the person orders FTTC a visit to the cabinet might not be required as the jumpers are already in place to the fibre cabinet.

Could it be that those "jumpers" are connecting the original E-side directly to the original D-side totally within the PCP, thus shorting out the more-recent links to the FTTC and back, the latter possibly being simply cut and isolated within the PCP?

That is the line has been upgraded to FTTC/VDSL some time in the past; and to re-establish ADSL connections, short jumpers within the PCP have been used to return to the original "straight-through" PCP connections to permit ADSL functions to be resumed or started?

If it has been done that way, there would be no need to visit the PCP (and/or the FTTC) to install ADSL.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

Could it be that those "jumpers" are connecting the original E-side directly to the original D-side totally within the PCP, thus shorting out the more-recent links to the FTTC and back, the latter possibly being simply cut and isolated within the PCP?

That is the line has been upgraded to FTTC/VDSL some time in the past; and to re-establish ADSL connections, short jumpers within the PCP have been used to return to the original "straight-through" PCP connections to permit ADSL functions to be resumed or started?

If it has been done that way, there would be no need to visit the PCP (and/or the FTTC) to install ADSL.

But what you've described is just the usual setup on the PCP. It's how it's always been, prior to FTTC.

So there would be no reason to mention that setup on the availability checker. If someone is on ADSL and changes providers, moves into a new home, whatever, provided OR are confident the routing is correct there is no need for a PCP visit.

It's only when a line either goes to FTTC or goes from FTTC back to ADSL that someone needs to go to the PCP.

In effect we are in agreement, as your final line also describes what I had in mind-

"It's only when a line either goes to FTTC or GOES FROM FTTC BACK TO ADSL that someone needs to go to the PCP."

If the the line has been in effect patched back from VDSL to provide ADSL, then it may be thought necessary to record that patching "jumpers" have been installed.

But such patching "jumpers" are surely rare - how many users have requested such a reversal, unless the VDSL performance has been very poor, one possibility being FTTC/VDSL line length to the user.

I know what it means for sure as its my job What you describe as patching jumpers are just the norm though, every line needs jumpers apart from one specific, rare situation.

But yes it often happens (FTTC jumpers being removed). People don't really care if something is FTTC or ADSL, so they'll often switch between the two based on what deal is around at the time. Rented houses will often switch between the two technologies too.

Your second paragraph is particularly interesting, as I do not recollect seeing any reports covering that aspect, changing relatively frequently between FTTC/VDSL and ADSL.

Any more details of the actual wiring changes etc?

Prior to now, my impression was that it was relatively rare, particularly considering the low over-all upgrade to VDSL, the last BT report back in June 2015 gave a figure of 19% following on from 13% about November 2014.

And "my" local FTTC, about 10 M from my front door and lounge window, only had 48 Filter-Links in it, about 17% from installation and RFS in March 2014, with a second batch of 48 added in May 2015, as I spoke to the lad doing it, out of a back-plane for 288.

Although I have never worked for a telephone company/organisation, I did do the Telephone Boys course (Telecomms Principles 1,2 &3, Radio 1 &2, Elementary Telecomms Practice etc - Mr Rance of GPO Telephones was main Lecturer) at the Heriot Watt in the 1950s, as being the nearest in content to my RADAR/Radio Apprenticeship with Ferranti.

So Risers and Jumpers were familiar terms to me.

Some people just go with whatever is a good deal at the time then move on after 12 months to the next good package. Also as I mentioned before there's always loads of rental places.

What do you want to know about the wiring?

It being confirmed that jumpers are used to re-establish the direct connection through the PCP to move back to ADSL, I am trying to establish if there would be any need to identify in the records that they are present - as it would appear, in principle, that to upgrade a second or subsequent time to FTTC/VDSL would require no more effort and instruction notes than the first time.


Could it be that there is some conflict with any records associated with the FTTC, such as that the actual Filter/Link location in the Back-Plane may be in the middle of already in-use F/Ls, rather than at the present "last one" on the assumption that there have been later upgrades for other users, so a very specific, original, FTTC to PCP Link Pair has to be used?

For example, assuming that the original FTTC F/L allocated to the User's Line had been #12, that some other upgrades for other users had been implemented up to, say, #19, the general expectation would be that #20 would be used on the next consecutive upgrade.

When that user down-graded back to ADSL, would F/L # 12 now be left unused; but still be "allocated"?

Later the user (or new occupant of the house), now wanting to move back up from ADSL to VDSL, would his line be re-linked to F/L # 12 because of the earlier upgrade; or ...?

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I was present at "my" PCP when my upgrade from ADSL to VDSL was carried out, from just as the confirmation of the Line Number was coming through, to when the PCP work was finished; and I returned "over the road" to my house to swap the Bright Boxes etc.

I'll try and answer as best I can buy it is quite complex.

Openreach definitely need to know if jumpers are in place to the DSLAM. When someone stops paying for their FTTC we leave the jumpers in place by default. If that line is jumpered through to port 12 of the DSLAM then that port will just become deactivated but the jumper will still exist. There may be a gap of a few weeks (say if someone is struggling to pay a bill or something). If that house then orders broadband again and it's an FTTC connection the system just goes in and reactivates port 12 and virtually maps it to the service they've ordered. So there's no reason for an engineer to go to the cabinet in that situation, even if they switch to another provider-so long as they stay on an FTTC service. Of course if that house were to order ADSL then a cabinet visit would be required to remove the line from port 12. If the cabinet is full and someone else orders FTTC in that gap where we have it deactivated then the system would grab port 12 for that line instead.

I think that illustrates the scenario you asked about anyway. All ports are technically the same, we can just virtually tweak what they actually do, remotely.

It's also useful to know if left in FTTC jumpers are present when a new line is being built. An old pre connected line from the cabinet to random point in the network may be used but a spare line might be used from the exchange to the cabinet. It's useful to know if either of these have left in FTTC jumpers before trying to connect the two to provide service. The system alerts the engineer to any left in FTTC jumpers.

As I say, there's multiple reasons why OR engineers need to know what the FTTC jumpers are doing but there's absolutely no reason that CPs or the general public do!

MOrning Icarus.

Agreed that "the general public" does not need to know such details normally; but I think that it is reasonable to assume that we making use of TBB, have a greater interest than normal, in what goes on "behind the scenes".

Otherwise, what would be the "raison d'etre" for TBB?


Thank you for the additional details.

Oh I know, I expect people on TBB to be interested! I don't, however, understand why information about jumpers is on the BTW Availability Checker. That's what I was talking about, not TBB.

Hopefully the additional info made sense anyway, sometimes this stuff is hard to describe!

Because the BTW checker was probably never originally intended for public information, but is one of the few things BT Group has not yet decided to withdraw from such access.

As such, it displays the information held on the relevant part of the database. Simples .

When I first had broadband from ProdigyNet, they had an enquiry screen that gave all the DSLAM (and MSAN when they came along) details for any exchange. This included the cards installed and the number of free and used ports on each.

That got withdrawn from their help menus after a while.

It's strange how they added the line about jumpers fairly recently. Almost as if it has become suddenly relevant, but it hasn't!

Agreed about it being hard to describe!

But finding ways to do so, keeps the brain active; and should also lead to greater personal understanding for everyone involved - myself included.

It's strange how they added the line about jumpers fairly recently. Almost as if it has become suddenly relevant, but it hasn't!

It's a public service they provide, gives the saddo's summat (else) to fret over.

Oi!

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

Prior to now, my impression was that it was relatively rare, particularly considering the low over-all upgrade to VDSL, the last BT report back in June 2015 gave a figure of 19% following on from 13% about November 2014.

You have to remember that some areas have had FTTC for 6 years now - and uptake levels in those areas are likely to be much higher than in more recently enabled ones such as yours.

BT's recent results (this week) gave a figure of 5 million FTTC/P installs with 24 million premises passed - or an average of 21%

Agreed that one would expect earlier FTTCs to have a higher level of utilisation - but just look at the latest figure you quote an, average of 21 % over 6 years, say 3.5% per year, so about 30 years to get 100%, total, less the 6 years gone, so about 24 years to reach something like the 100% goal, for 24 million "passed" premises.

Or to view it another way, 13% in about November 2014 to 21% in October 2015, so 8% in 11 months.

Say 0.7% per month, or 8.4% per year, with 79% left to upgrade, so about 9 years to get 100%

Either way, it looks a very slow rate of upgrade, considering the investment being made even today.

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Also given the widespread advertising and "hype" about broadband, I. would have expected that more recently installed FTTCs would have been relatively "flooded" with applications for upgrades, "to catch up with theJoneses".

I assume you have seen the various inquiries on TBB asking "When am I going to get Broadband?"; but it seems that actual individual upgrades when FTTCs become available are relatively few.

I was speaking to a near-neighbour about 3 months back.

He said he and his wife were not interested in upgrading; but because of visiting family, he had decided to do so. Otherwise, he felt that ADSL was more than fast enough for his uses and his wife's - they had no complaints about the ADSL service - don't know ISP.

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Again it is about 5 weeks since I have seen any work being carried out at the PCP.

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The area covered by our FTTC & PCP is relatively affluent; and certainly not poor.

I also check other parts of the country that I am acquainted with, on the TBB Broadband Map (Top-Left) and the speed results on there seem to accord with the low level of upgrade, even in unexpected areas.

A friend in Milton Keynes with the academics of the OU etc, within that town, can not get broadband and is running with ADSL around 2.5 Mbps - and he like myself worked in senior technical positions in the electronics and aerospace industries.

Another aspect I had overlooked.

TBB's Broadband Map (Link at top-left) progressively omits data more than some months old, say 4 months for simplicity.

So all the Tests plotted on that Map are relatively (very) RECENT, to possibly within the LAST WEEK, so certainly not ancient history.

Try assessing those that are likely to be ADSL rather than VDSL, based on the Speed Ranges that they fall in to.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

Agreed that one would expect earlier FTTCs to have a higher level of utilisation - but just look at the latest figure you quote an, average of 21 % over 6 years, say 3.5% per year, so about 30 years to get 100%, total, less the 6 years gone, so about 24 years to reach something like the 100% goal, for 24 million "passed" premises.

Or to view it another way, 13% in about November 2014 to 21% in October 2015, so 8% in 11 months.

With respect,you are looking at it the wrong way - its now 21% of a bigger footprint than 13% of a smaller figure a year ago - as availability continues to increase so uptake is higher than you suggest - and remember its customer driven (some will not want fibre - some don't even have internet/computers at home) + this all excludes customers who use Virgin Media (or wireless instead)

Hence, you will have areas where switches between adsl/fttc are common - especially those with a high percentage of students or other tenants.

Also given the widespread advertising and "hype" about broadband, I. would have expected that more recently installed FTTCs would have been relatively "flooded" with applications for upgrades, "to catch up with theJoneses".

ispreview.co.uk has information which shows the uptake of the BDUK areas over time which you can see here, here and here

Uptake tends to start quite slowly and increase as people see/learn about FTTC from immediate neighbours/friends (and ISPs start marketing in those areas) - not everyone is as keen as you may imagine - the demographic of this site are not typical users.

I assume you have seen the various inquiries on TBB asking "When am I going to get Broadband?"; but it seems that actual individual upgrades when FTTCs become available are relatively few.

Yes, consumers in the UK seem to be very price sensitive - this is not BT's fault and the low prices to an extent deter further investment into faster products.

A friend in Milton Keynes with the academics of the OU etc, within that town, can not get broadband and is running with ADSL around 2.5 Mbps - and he like myself worked in senior technical positions in the electronics and aerospace industries.

From the ADSL rollout,I recall Milton Keynes has its own unique issues over where the existing exchanges where when the city was built + the fact that it had a BT cable system which was sold to Virgin. One of the reasons it has been used by Openreach to test the deployment of newer technologies and also has some FTTP..

Edited by gt94sss2 (Sun 01-Nov-15 15:57:34)