What cables we are responsible for...

Hey all

I was on the phone last night to try and get my line reset and to get my replacement HH4 that was requested 5 days ago where nothing was done then.

For some reason BT India hung up on me when I was explaining the issue, everything was in a calm peaceful manner, so maybe they knocked the hang-up button, who knows.

So I phoned again where I was presented with an automated messaged stating that there is a detected fault on the line and that they will do an automated line test that required me to hang up, so I did.

I got an automated phone call saying that there is no fault on my line and that we can request for an engineer to visit to check everything including wiring.

This is where it goes bad, they say that "ALL" internal wiring is our responsibility and if misused we will be charged £130.

How is that fair when the stupid engineer installed the [censored] cable between the BT80 and the NTE5a Master Socket under our carpet under the door frame, its stupid, of course that cable is going to get damaged over time.

So due to that engineer being [censored] lazy to go round the door frame we would have to foot the £130 due to the cable falling apart due to ware and tear and people walking over it, my mother is disabled and has been for many years now so a wheel chair is used.

The way I see it, if we are responsible for it then I am just going to replace the whole [censored] thing myself.

I have the reel of cable and Gel Crimps.

Paul

Edited by PaulKirby (Sun 28-Feb-16 23:12:04)

It is the grand order of [censored] covering ...

If they don't warn you that some things may evoke a charge then many more people would complain saying "Well no one told us we might get charged".

If I had to be pedantic I'd say the interpretation is that since the cabling is internal to your property you have some responsibility not to damage it. (This goes for external cabling too if attached to the wall)

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

It is the grand order of [censored] covering ...

If they don't warn you that some things may evoke a charge then many more people would complain saying "Well no one told us we might get charged".

If I had to be pedantic I'd say the interpretation is that since the cabling is internal to your property you have some responsibility not to damage it. (This goes for external cabling too if attached to the wall)

Well the [censored] word was blood with a y at the end.

And yes I understand what you are saying, but its the fault of the engineer that tucked the cable under the carpet, its been there about 3 to 5 years now and the outer sheath has fallen apart and the wires in places are no longer twisted, so in my eyes that's not missed used and is in fact wear and tear, is my mother suppose to bunny hop her wheel chair over it.

I might phone the BT Executive switchboard on Monday to enquire about it and what can be done about it, because I don't think we should have to pay due to the engineers incompetence.

Don't get me wrong I have no issues with BT Engineers, due to we have had many BT Engineers visits over the years and they all have been fine apart from this one engineer.

Paul

If BT decide to send out an engineer to resolve the cable issue for free, what are the chances of them relocating the boxes to another room at the front of the house that the cable goes by, like the front room up stairs, due to like I have already stated in other posts that we are very close to getting our FTTP completed (about 50 months delay) and where that needs at least one or two power sockets near the master socket, and not having any near where it is now.

And by moving it to the empty room up stairs front room which does have power sockets available and also easy access our phone extension and LAN.

I would hate for loads of fibre cables to be installed downstairs so that it reaches a power socket for a wheel chair wheel or somebody to step on it breaking the fibre.

Paul

3 to 5 years - how long do you expect them to warranty a cable for?

The cable is on the customer side of the NTE so you can replace it yourself - it is your cable.

Get some Cat5 cable, connect pins 2 and 5 at the NTE faceplate to the same pair (most people use the blue pair). Run the cable around whatever route is most suitable and connect the other end to the extension socket using the same wires on the 2 and 5.

All cabling beyond the NTE5 is customer responsibility. BT installed it as part of another job but any warranty would have long run out.

In reply to a post by ian72:

3 to 5 years - how long do you expect them to warranty a cable for?

The cable is on the customer side of the NTE so you can replace it yourself - it is your cable.

Get some Cat5 cable, connect pins 2 and 5 at the NTE faceplate to the same pair (most people use the blue pair). Run the cable around whatever route is most suitable and connect the other end to the extension socket using the same wires on the 2 and 5.

All cabling beyond the NTE5 is customer responsibility. BT installed it as part of another job but any warranty would have long run out.

Its the cable between the BT80 and the NTE5A.

I am aware cables coming off the NTE5A is ours, but its the cable going into it that is falling apart.

Paul

Ah, sorry - misread your post. In that case they are the responsibility of BT and therefore should be replaced at their cost. They will warn their "could" be a charge "if" it is your internal cabling - but if this is the only part they replace then they are not entitled to charge.

In reply to a post by ian72:

Ah, sorry - misread your post. In that case they are the responsibility of BT and therefore should be replaced at their cost. They will warn their "could" be a charge "if" it is your internal cabling - but if this is the only part they replace then they are not entitled to charge.

Yeah, its the only cable that I haven't touched, all cables leaving the NTE5A are CAT5e cables including the data cable going upstairs to the middle of the house.

I just didn't want to get blamed for their cable due to it falling apart.

As for getting it relocated to a more convenient location like the upstairs front room where our other line is located, due to it might be awkward to do due to wall units etc.
I will find out when I phone their executive switchboard later today.

Paul

Ah, you meant a block terminal. I thought it was some sort of router or hub. BT is definitely responsible for the wiring from that to the back of the master socket.

Basically you're responsible for anything AFTER the NTE, hence network termination equipment. It is the end of the Openreach network.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Ah, you meant a block terminal. I thought it was some sort of router or hub. BT is definitely responsible for the wiring from that to the back of the master socket.

Yeah, the line comes into our house into a BT80B (i.e. block terminal) then to another BT80B from there it goes to the NTE5A Master Socket.

Like I have said in another post, the last engineer we had a while back was sent to re-wire the line coming into our house due to our council buried the BT80B junction box in the new window frame, this was down to they wasn't allowed to touch it.

Anyhow the cable was too short so engineer added another BT80B and joined them together so that they didn't have to touch any wiring.

Hence why I would like it relocated.

Paul

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

BT is definitely responsible for the wiring from that to the back of the master socket.

Ah, get this I just phoned BT and got passed onto the overseas team, I explained to them that the cable between the junction box (BT80B) and the Master Socket (NTE5A) had been installed under the carpet back around 2000 when we had Home Choice installed and that due to it being installed and tucked under the carpet it has got damaged due to wear and tear.
The BT Guy said if they send out an engineer and if the faulty/damaged cable is inside our house we will be charged £129.99.

I then tried to explain how can we be responsible for a 10 to 15 year old cable that was badly installed by their engineer, and that is BT's property, I also said all wiring up to and going into the master socket is BT's responsibility and not ours, especially if its wear and tear.
The BT Guy said that he understands and then repeats himself again.

I phoned the direct line to Lee Jones, Executive Level Complaints only number I had access to at the time, I left my details, so now waiting for them to phone back.

This just isn't right that we will get charged for something that we are not allowed to even touch and that was also badly installed in the first place.

Paul

Ultimately it will come down to "did you deliberately, knowingly and wilfully" damage the BT equipment?

For example, if you keep running the vacuum cleaner into a master socket and it breaks - yes they are right to charge you. If you use a bolster chisel to push the cable behind the architrave and it splits, or when using a blow lamp to melt the cable, then yes you should be charged.

However, if in your case, BT installed the cable under the carpet and you have no choice but to walk across it then I believe they should not charge.

Well I have just found out that Home Choice started around 2000 so it was installed then.
We didn't even know they installed it under the carpet at first to a couple of years later when we had an issue on the line and the engineer had to hunt out the cable, strangely they did nothing to rectify the install and just fixed the fault and just left the cable there.

It was only several years later we started to notice the outer sheath cracking to a point where we can see the wires (if I recall there was 2 twisted pairs) and that the twisted pairs are starting to un-twist, so we have tried our best to limit this from getting worse by placing a small doorway rubber ramp either side of the cable, sadly I think the damage is already done.

I have yet to hear anything back from Lee Jones, Executive Level Complaints about this, so tomorrow I will be sending him an email and also sending a carbon copy to my local MP.

BT Need to be correct and not say you be charged if the damage/fault is in our house that they are responsible for, even though I said BT are responsible up to the NTE5A back plate, where they repeat that we will be charged etc..

What is annoying is my mother is disabled and has days where she requires a wheel chair to get about and that my father has not long been released from hospital with septicaemia and also requires operations on both of his knees and has also had to used the wheel chair or a walker, so in my eyes BT are expecting them to bunny hop or jump over the wires under the carpet, I don't think so.

Even the last engineer that was sent here to re-install the BT80B (white block terminal) in our living room (about 3 foot from the floor) and due to the cable not reaching they installed a second BT80B small white box on our skirting board and added a cable between them just so that he didn't have to touch the damaged/warn out cable.

So we cannot risk asking for an engineer visit until we 100% know and has been confirmed by BT that we will not be charged for the repair and to have the overseas quote what they did on the phone makes it more confusing.

Like you said, if it was damaged by the vac banging and breaking the master socket or maybe kids yanking on the cables then yeah I expect to pay for a repair, but this isn't our fault.

Paul

Oh that was fun, just got a call from the manager of the overseas BT Support guy.

Even he couldn't fully answer my question whether we will be charged for an engineer visit to replace the faulty cable resulted by their engineers back in 2000 installing the cable under the carpet.

I asked him a few times if we will be charged and not a clear answer.

I was told that I will be getting a call from BT Complaints some time tomorrow, not too sure if its about this or our issues getting our FTTP install sorted, I guess I will have to wait and see.

The overseas support guys manager said that he will phone back on the 2nd to see what needs to be done, but until I am guaranteed that we won't be charged for that engineers stupidity back then, we cannot risk it, just in case we are charged the £129.99

Paul

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

This just isn't right that we will get charged for something that we are not allowed to even touch and that was also badly installed in the first place.

Paul

Is it in writing that you WILL be charged. No its a case of might be. Seems to be the norm that they say you could/will be charged. Just to put you off.

Just get the fault fixed and argue the point afterwards.

In reply to a post by JohnR:

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

This just isn't right that we will get charged for something that we are not allowed to even touch and that was also badly installed in the first place.

Paul

Is it in writing that you WILL be charged. No its a case of might be. Seems to be the norm that they say you could/will be charged. Just to put you off.

Just get the fault fixed and argue the point afterwards.

Well in the first phone call I wasn't told I could be charged, I was told that I would be charged, and in the call back they just wouldn't confirm either way.

But I might just see what happens in the scheduled phone calls over the next couple of days.

I will be taking pictures of it now on how it looks, that way I could dispute that we are not at fault.

But yeah I will have to have a word with my parents due to they are the bill payer of the line and see what they think.

But yeah, this issue really needs to get resolved, its been going on and off for the last several years.

Paul

Well the [censored] word was blood with a y at the end.

..... dear me no , that weren't it at all.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Well the [censored] word was blood with a y at the end.

..... dear me no , that weren't it at all.

Oh, I thought you was asking what the censored word was

It was late and I was tired.

Paul

Edited by PaulKirby (Mon 29-Feb-16 21:29:15)

I guess it was a word the Americans spell differently?

At the end of the day only one person will decide if you are going to be charged. That will be the person that turns up to do the work....

So make sure tea & bickies are laid out

Call center staff can only tell you what they have been told to advise customers.

Remind me Paul, what actual fault is this damaged cable causing ?

And front line CSEs are under a LOT of pressure to put TRCs in . If its as OP says i would not put a TRC in but i think most would.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Remind me Paul, what actual fault is this damaged cable causing ?

Well its not too much of an issue atm, I am not too sure if the separating/untwisting of wires are the contributing factor of that noise on our line that we get now and then, but the noise on the line could be caused outside due to bad weather and water getting in on the lines.

Basically we would like for the cable from the BT80 to the Master Socket to be installed correctly around the door frame and not under the carpet etc, due to it will get to a point where the wire may/will break.

Or better still have it relocated to a more suitable location that has access to both the phone extensions and our data extension.
This way where the BT80 and the NTE5a will be very close together there would be not much to go wrong with BT's side in our home.

This along with the noise on the line that we get every now and then I think is a contributing factor that is killing our broadband connection.

But where its not best to report it as a broadband connection issue to get it fixed I was more hoping for it to be reported as a phone line issue, however its an intermittent issue due to its fine some times and then goes to hell and is very bad where a single phone call on the line kills the broadband connection like it did Nov-Dec 2015 where about 1 min in you can hear the HH4 syncing up and over time the connection drops to nearly nothing where we have to phone BT to have our line reset like I did last week.

I just want that cable sorted, along with the new HH4 so that I can rule those out as the cause of the line issues.

I think BT overseas told me yesterday that we are due a phone call today from the exec complaints team, which I probably won't even get, but I am also due a call from the support tomorrow (2nd March) to see where we go from there.

But this will be all irrelevant if they finally get around to finishing off our FTTP so that we can order it, we will be asking for it to all be relocated upstairs as part of the install where there is a couple of power sockets and an easy access to the phone extensions and our LAN.

Due to there is no power sockets near the master socket.

I read in the openreach install docs and the upstairs front room is one of the idea spots for where it can enter the home.

I am even happy to buy both the BT80B and NTE5A boxes and install them where

I would like it located and all the engineer would need to do is go up a ladder and poke the line trough the wall, the place I would like it is right by the window where the line is attached to our wall, hell I will even drill the hole for them.

Then all they would need to do is check the 2 wires are ok either end of the very short CW 1308 cable and sign it off as ok and job done, we will also have a nice cup of Tea and a couple of Jammie Dodgers waiting for them.

Paul

BT will only replace it free if they believe it is causing a current fault. And BT charge for relocating sockets. So, unless you have a known fault that BT put down to the wire then you will pay for getting this wire replaced or the socket moved.

I assumed you had an actual definite problem with the wire but it sounds like it is your diagnosis rather than BTs. As it is intermittent you are in the land of hoping BT come out when it is failing.

In reply to a post by ian72:

As it is intermittent you are in the land of hoping BT come out when it is failing.

This is exactly it

Paul