BT voice-only line problems

Not sure if this is the correct forum, but...

I found out yesterday that some elderly friends, he's 91 and she's 90 in 2 months and currently in hospital, have had problems with their telephone line for 3 years. There's no broadband involved. I'm assured that they're with BT.

Someone can ring their number and get different outcomes depending on who knows what: number temporarily unavailable, ringing tone but phone doesn't ring, unobtainable, whatever. BT engineers have been out 4 times and have said everything's ok. Clearly it isn't. I don't have chapter and verse on each and every problem, when and how long. But essentially it's totally unpredictable and therefore, arguably unusable.

The fact that the engineers have been perhaps suggests that the home wiring is ok, so presumably could be a cabinet or exchange issue. Oddly I've just put their phone number in SamKnows and it has no data for it.

Any suggestions on how to progress this.

Does the broadband checker recognise the number?

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 07-Jun-16 21:31:38)

No,

There is no data available for this number. This could be either because it is not a BT line or it is a new BT number that has just been provided. Most new numbers will appear on the checker 24 hours after BT has installed the line..

I'll double check when I can that it's a BT line, may be a few days, but when we visited her in hospital yesterday she said it was BT.

It's an 0161 612 xxxx number. Don't know which CP may nominally own that number.

Edited by cheshire_man (Tue 07-Jun-16 21:50:59)

I wonder how they got the engineers out. If by dialling 151 then if a non-BT line I think it goes to the actual provider. They might have moved to the Post Office in the past, which IIRC was BT Wholesale White label, but is now TalkTalk. I don't remember Tesco's history on the subject.

Who do they pay the line rental to? And you do they pay for phone calls?

There is a chance its a BT line but with a CPS provider over the top.

Engineers will usually verify to the master socket, and thus may not have gone checked whether the phone itself is the cause of the issue.

so presumably could be a cabinet or exchange issue.

It's not going to be the cabinet, nothing funky happens in the cabinet on a standard DEL, it's just a big joint.

If I had to be pushed, *maybe* duff exchange equipment, but tricky to prove.

There is a harsh question to be asked here, all these reported problems, are they just anecdotal from the couple, or have independent 3rd parties actually experienced them ?

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

so presumably could be a cabinet or exchange issue.

It's not going to be the cabinet, nothing funky happens in the cabinet on a standard DEL, it's just a big joint.

Fair enough.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

There is a harsh question to be asked here, all these reported problems, are they just anecdotal from the couple, or have independent 3rd parties actually experienced them ?

Yes, I have, and I know of others.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Who do they pay the line rental to? And you do they pay for phone calls?

I'll ask the question next time I see her. May be a few days.

Yes, I have, and I know of others.

OK, good ..... sorry to have suggested the notion, but it does happen.

So that takes me back to my original diagnosis, a problem with the LIC in the exchange.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Yes, I have, and I know of others.

OK, good ..... sorry to have suggested the notion, but it does happen.

So that takes me back to my original diagnosis, a problem with the LIC in the exchange.

My awareness of the problem arose because I'd tried to ring her husband Monday teatime to see how she was, I repeatedly got This number is temporarily unavailable, that was from my (BT) land line; I got unobtainable when trying from my mobile. So I rang the hospital ward to check she was able to be visited. While visiting her I mentioned the problem I'd had and she said they'd had phone problems for 3 years.

Oddly some other friends arrived while we were there and said they'd rung her husband before coming and got through. So whatever the fault it would seem to be intermittent - often the hardest of faults to trace IME.

In reply to a post by cheshire_man:

Not sure if this is the correct forum, but...

I found out yesterday that some elderly friends, he's 91 and she's 90 in 2 months and currently in hospital, have had problems with their telephone line for 3 years. There's no broadband involved. I'm assured that they're with BT.

Someone can ring their number and get different outcomes depending on who knows what: number temporarily unavailable, ringing tone but phone doesn't ring, unobtainable, whatever. BT engineers have been out 4 times and have said everything's ok. Clearly it isn't. I don't have chapter and verse on each and every problem, when and how long. But essentially it's totally unpredictable and therefore, arguably unusable.

The fact that the engineers have been perhaps suggests that the home wiring is ok, so presumably could be a cabinet or exchange issue. Oddly I've just put their phone number in SamKnows and it has no data for it.

Any suggestions on how to progress this.

I have exactly the same problem! BT engineers said everything was okay. The issue appeared only a couple of days ago... I'll keep calling BT guys then. Let us know when you find a solution.

I've just rung to find out who they pay the bill to... and got This number is temporarily out of order, we're sorry for any inconvenience. Tried again and again, same result.

This is a crazy situation for a couple of almost or actual nonagenarians, one of whom is in hospital.

I've no idea if they're registered with BT as elderly and/or vulnerable.

In reply to a post by cheshire_man:

It's an 0161 612 xxxx number. Don't know which CP may nominally own that number.

Looks like that number range is owned by Virgin Media. So if they have moved to an Openreach provider the issue is a problem with Number Portability between Virgin and the new provider.

It sounds like an intermittent fault in the LIC (line interface circuit) in the far exchange.

When the software in the exchange tries to present the call to the line but encounters this problem, it will return the failure back to the calling exchange, which can then decide how to present the failure to you, the human. The difference you hear between BT landline and mobile is because the calling exchange (your BT exchange, and your mobile operator's exchange) choose to behave differently.

In this case, the BT exchange is being nice, and giving you verbal feedback. Though I imagine it would be less nice if a dialup modem were trying to listen to tones.

Your mobile exchange is being less nice. However, there is valuable spectrum being used here, so the voice channel (between your mobile and your mobile exchange) will be freed up as soon as the call failed. The ongoing NU tone that you hear out of the earpiece is likely to be being generated by the mobile handset itself.

It sounds like an intermittent fault in the LIC (line interface circuit) in the far exchange.

(cough) I did say that yesterday .....

If I had to be pushed, *maybe* duff exchange equipment, but tricky to prove.

Not a fix to your issue but you should check if your friends qualify for https://www.btplc.com/inclusion/HelpAndSupport/Docum...

Hi cheshire_man I'm sorry to see your friends have been suffering with this problem for such a long time. If they need any help getting it sorted we'll be happy to lend a hand.

We can be contacted on this link https://bt.custhelp.com/app/contact_email/c/4950

Thanks
Neil

Doubt this is a problem with the local exchange. A number is always owned by the allocated range holder, in this case Virgin Media. The range holder then forwards to the relevant ported provider. Seen this before with Virgin numbers ported to Openreach providers.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

It sounds like an intermittent fault in the LIC (line interface circuit) in the far exchange.

(cough) I did say that yesterday .....

If I had to be pushed, *maybe* duff exchange equipment, but tricky to prove.

Absolutely. But nobody was paying attention to that bit.

As someone who works on the stuff on the inside of exchanges, I thought it was worth reiterating.

Incidentally ... as this kind of fault crosses the boundary from Openreach back to BTW (or TSO), how do you go about progressing a fix for the subscriber?

Thank you. When I can get in touch with them, I'll firstly check to see who they actually pay line rental to. I may have to drive over if the phone doesn't come back to life.

Useful link. I suspect they don't qualify as, for example, they still both drive so I doubt they are registered as chronically sick and certainly not housebound.

And the husband still has a great sense of humour. He was in the D-Day landings in 1944 and every so often comes up with a new story, many of which his wife hasn't heard before...

. as this kind of fault crosses the boundary from Openreach back to BTW (or TSO), how do you go about progressing a fix for the subscriber?

The Openreach bod rings up whoever (hopefully) gets issued new equipment and then just reruns the jumper from the bar pair to the new equipment. *







*Sounds easy enough, and it should be, but in reality there are plenty of ways the applecart might be upset before such resolution is reached.

If the owner of the number (Virgin) forwarding to the current provider (Possibly BT although this is not clear and is not showing up on BTw checker) is rejecting connection as a fault or NU at the trunk level for callers from several different networks, changing the local exchange port is not going to make much difference.

Edited by deleted (Wed 08-Jun-16 22:28:04)

Yes, but WWWombat asked ....
" as this kind of fault crosses the boundary from Openreach back to BTW (or TSO), how do you go about progressing a fix for the subscriber?"
.... so I mentioned what an Openreach bod might do.

If the problem lies where you suggest, and I'll agree that sounds plausible, how can it be resolved, bearing in mind it will surely be passed to Openreach staff as a CDTA type task.

I wonder if the OP might ask the couple in question whether the line was previously with Virgin at an old address ?

I'll bear that in mind. As far as I know they've been in the property for many years, but I don't know the history.

The phone worked this morning!

It's looking as if it's a pure Virgin setup. Assuming the husband isn't getting too confused he says they have TV through that cable stuff. So it's likely I'd have thought that the telephone is similar. He can't find a bill, doesn't know where his wife has put them; may need to wait till she's out of hospital, hopefully in the next day or two.

They've both referred to BT when talking about the phone, but I'd guess that is because, to them, BT supply telephone services. Quite understandably they can't comprehend the complexity of telephone provision today. Clearly there's more to come but getting reliable information is challenging.

All-in-all you are having an interesting few days .

As W S Gilbert said, "Things are seldom what they seem; Skim milk masquerades as cream".

It's looking as if it's a pure Virgin setup

Marvellous, kinda explains why the number range is registered to them.

Edited by Zarjaz (Thu 09-Jun-16 11:08:07)

In reply to a post by partial:

If the owner of the number (Virgin) forwarding to the current provider (Possibly BT although this is not clear and is not showing up on BTw checker) is rejecting connection as a fault or NU at the trunk level for callers from several different networks, changing the local exchange port is not going to make much difference.

It is certainly true that the addition of number portability offers this extra mode of failure that I hadn't accounted for, and (given the most recent conversations) it looks like Virgin are indeed more likely to be the source of the issue.

However, I wonder how you could possibly know that it could *only* be Virgin, and *not* any other local exchange issue? Surely it is a matter of probabilities here, not certainties?

In reply to a post by cheshire_man:

They've both referred to BT when talking about the phone, but I'd guess that is because, to them, BT supply telephone services. Quite understandably they can't comprehend the complexity of telephone provision today. Clearly there's more to come but getting reliable information is challenging.

I wonder about the original post then, where you mention that BT engineers have been out 4 times.

It would be hard to continue to mistake VM for BT when you have to call support, arrange an engineer, have one turns up, four times in a row.

As you say, challenging, and certainly more to come.

Indeed, in my first reply two days ago I said

There is a harsh question to be asked here, all these reported problems, are they just anecdotal from the couple, or have independent 3rd parties actually experienced them ?

As you say, challenging, and certainly more to come.

I'd guess that to them if it's a telephone engineer it's BT. Maybe it's a generational thing.

Or a degenerational one .
(Not meant unkindly to them. Just a pun reflecting the facts).

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 09-Jun-16 15:28:01)

And it was the wife, lying in a hospital bed, who gave me that information. When she's home, and it's appropriate, I'll pop over and see the situation for myself.

Mind you, if it is a pure Virgin setup, how do they/I get Virgin to sort it?

The usual report faults and try pleading via social media leverage