My Fault- Update

Some of you may have read in another thread that I am only sync'ing at 45 and I put my number in BT Retail site and they guarantee me a minimum of 60.

I also would like my underground feed (Single pair DW3, 30 metres) replaced with a current spec twisted pair.

Openreach has been today and found that I am losing 13mbps on this underground feed as he tested sync at the jointing post and it was 53mbps, 40mbps at the test socket in my house.

He is coming back tomorrow with his mate and some cable and they are going to try to replace it but while testing in an underground box a few feet away from my property and sync here was 67mbps. This means also some street underground wiring will need to be replaced.

He also mentioned he doesn't know if this will cost me anything and needs to speak to his manager, anyone in Openreach confirm that everything after the master socket is at Openreach cost?

In reply to a post by Banger:

everything after the master socket is at Openreach cost?

Yes.

Edited by deleted (Thu 06-Apr-17 15:57:05)

Ta because when he was talking about cost I wasn't sure but he needed to talk to his manager.

That sounds a bit odd. When we've had external faults fixed here, we've never been charged, whether it was a line pair swap or replacement of cable.

Edited by deleted (Thu 06-Apr-17 16:07:02)

They will need approval, since there is a cost involved to Openreach, and they are allowed to deem it not worthwhile and refuse to do the work, or give you the option to contribute.

The ISP guarantee is usually not a we will spend a fortune to get you to the minimum but rather a you can walk from the contract if we cannot after reasonable effect meet that figure

There is a difference between a fault as measured by the standards Openreach works to and what you and others may consider a fault.

A lot can hinge on how busy a particular area is e.g. if they could be out fixed distinctly worse faults elsewhere or installing new kit that will get priority usually, but if otherwise they'd be sat waiting for work they may do the work, i.e. a big proportion of the cost is the labour.

Only voicing a note of caution, because people may get the impression that Openreach fix everything the customer calls a fault at the drop of a hat, when the massed observation of social media hints at a much more diverse picture.

Well he said he will have to come back tomorrow but he didn't know what time as he would have to go to Gateshead to pick up the cable which is quite a way and also he would be bringing an underground engineer who has more experience. He left saying he would give me a call. I probably will have to pay for a master socket and extension wiring but anything else we will see, hope not.

There maybe a cheaper way to get the fault corrected and that is to order a 2nd line on a one month contract. Not sure how that would work out but in order to supply the 2nd line the pairs would need replacing as they are single.

That makes sense, especially if the issue is beyond the scope of Openreach's budget in that particular area.

It shouldn't cost, it is before the NTE.

So it WAS the DW3 causing grief ...... I'm so good at this I found your fault without visiting site

Maybe I should consider doing it for a living ??

Underground Dropwire?

WRONG

Everything before the master is BT or ORs responsibility everything after is the customer responsibility.

Openreach would never pay you what you're worth though .

That's the point Partial, at some point Bangers UG feed has been run in DW3 under the drive, I suspect there's a joint between that and the jointing post which is the DP, not good.

Oh they pay what they think I'm worth, trust me.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

It shouldn't cost, it is before the NTE.

So it WAS the DW3 causing grief ...... I'm so good at this I found your fault without visiting site

Maybe I should consider doing it for a living ??

That's only part of it. 40 at the test socket, 53 at the jointing post and 67 at the roadside junction box before my house. 67 or thereabouts would be great.

Edited by Banger (Thu 06-Apr-17 17:04:40)

You've got confused, that's exactly what I said! What Banger meant was vice versa to what is the case, but I knew what he meant. Why would I think that everything before the master socket was the EU's responsibility? That would be a lot of responsibility!

Edited by deleted (Thu 06-Apr-17 17:05:36)

Yeah, I saw that ....
Sounds like he is a committed sort, and going to get an old UG lag to assist .... I'll cross me fingers, and you best practice your tea making skills

He refused tea said he just wanted to "crack on".

In reply to a post by WilliamGrimsley:

That's exactly what I said!

No, you stated YES to the question Is everything after the master at ORs cost. Which it is NOT

Ew! That aint right. I'm blaming Quinns.

If you get a charge for this raise a case against the service provider. Who is your ISP?

Weirdo alert !!!!

Errm, were Quinn's working for BT in the late 70's early 80's then ?

Please read my post again... Also, please refrain from using capitals as it is classed as shouting. Thanks.

Edited by deleted (Thu 06-Apr-17 18:21:30)

Read you own post again.

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/4539033-r...

What does this post say?

Edited by deleted (Thu 06-Apr-17 18:29:19)

I know exactly what your post said - I quoted it in my reply.

Someone said "everything after the master socket is at Openreach cost?"

To which you replied Yes.

MHC may be being pedantic but is sort of right, because 'after the master socket' depends on your view point, there is after the master socket with respect to extension wiring, and there is after the master as the wire heads off to the exchange.

There is also a scenario where costs would fall onto end-user for repairing a fault even if outside the property and heading towards the exchange, e.g. overhead cable damaged by rubbing against a tree branch on a users property, i.e. you are expected to keep a tree trimmed back as it grows, or another gardening example, strimmer damaging cable attached to outside wall of property, or over enthusiastic digging that cuts wire, or damages duct and cable.

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

If you get a charge for this raise a case against the service provider. Who is your ISP?

Uno and who with ?

Yes, I understand that. Also, I know that after means internal wiring. That's why I explained this in the post I linked to in my previous post.

Edited by deleted (Thu 06-Apr-17 19:07:43)

Yes, but you quoted the wrong post. Oh dear...

You'd raise it with Uno who then talk with their wholesaler who talks to Openreach

(The long chain can mean that fault/fix codes get mis-interpreted and someone along chain raises a charge by mistake, so providers are good and spot this and refer it back for resolution before you see it, others just pass them on blindly.

Uno have already indicated that I shouldn't be charged. See what tomorrow brings.

Engineers have been re-tested sync and have arranged for my drive to be dug up for new telephone cable

RESULT !

When they do come, make sure you do have plenty of tea and biccies!

When I had replacement drop wires to a new pole installed, the arrived, with agreement, at 5:00 AM, the bacon rolls and coffee at 7:00 were very much appreciated.

5 am?! That's keen!

Not keen, but essential. It alleviated a 3 month delay. They actually arrived at about 4:30 as they had been on a call out to removed damaged plant after an RTA

For those interested Underground engineer said it was actually non twisted drop wire 6.

Waiting for Council Approval for dig, which I am surprised at as its private property. OR advised takes about 5 days and will advise with a date further.

In reply to a post by Banger:

Waiting for Council Approval for dig, which I am surprised at as its private property. OR advised takes about 5 days and will advise with a date further.

Being Private or not, it still required planning permission and the planning team will be from the council.

As for 5 days, you are lucky.

Where I am in London, it can take up to 3 or so months to get planning permission, and then the neighbours can object and your back to square one, mind you I live in a conservation area, so that adds more issues and is why VM cannot install in my area.

When you look at VM coverage near me our area is like a dome where time forgot LOL

So hopefully you will be lucky and it will all be done soon.

Paul

Could the dig extend beyond your property?

Not sure I was on about a short cable that is under the street but the OR engineer only chalked up on my property so doubt it.

Nothing as yet on Council Planning website.

You sure it's planning permission? And not permission to dig the public highway?

Two very different things.

Notes aren't that specific and there only appears to be one portal on the council website to look it up on.

Check roadworks.org

It's unlikely to be planning permission as nothing is being constructed.

Already checked there, there is some cab re-shelling being done but nothing on my street either today or two weeks ahead. They are quoting 5 working days for approval so will keep an eye on roadworks.org.

It might be easier Tim to not stress about this, even if something was visible on a website somewhere,it wouldn't be especially informative and detailed.

In reply to a post by Banger:

Already checked there, there is some cab re-shelling being done but nothing on my street either today or two weeks ahead. They are quoting 5 working days for approval so will keep an eye on roadworks.org.

There are thousands who would like to be in your current position on there measly 2mb lines.With no likely hood of any improvement in foreseeable future.
Get a life.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

It might be easier Tim to not stress about this, even if something was visible on a website somewhere,it wouldn't be especially informative and detailed.

I spose but not particularly stressing about just updating the thread to let people know progress just in case anyone is following and has similar problems.

It won't be planning permission that Openreach need to excavate in the public highway. Pending where the works need to take place, if Openreach are excavating part of the footway/chamber on the highway then this will require noticing/permitting with the Highway Authority.

Statuary undertakers (utilities) have to Notice or Permit their civil works on the public highway which can be anything from within 2 hours of attending site (emergency/urgent works only), minimum of 3 working days prior (minor works), 5 working days prior (standard works) or 12 weeks (major works).

**Edit**
As already mentioned in another reply, keep an eye on Roadworks.org as a notice/permit will popup after it's been processed by the local highway authority. You will see a telephone symbol within a triangle indicating telecoms works .

Edited by deleted (Wed 12-Apr-17 22:24:03)

Yes and that local highway authority is the council in that area.

Paul

And it still won't be Planning permission.

The New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 (NRSWA) covers utility works.

Permission to work in the highway is either by Noticing or Permitting, most works of which are covered by the minimum of 2hr after, 3 days before or 5 days before time periods. Only major works (i.e. full road closures or works taking over 10+ days on the highway) would require the minimum 12 weeks notice (and even then the Highway Authority can be contacted to agree early starts).

Edited by deleted (Thu 13-Apr-17 21:10:36)

In reply to a post by Yaz:

And it still won't be Planning permission.

The New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 (NRSWA) covers utility works.

Permission to work in the highway is either by Noticing or Permitting, most works of which are covered by the minimum of 2hr after, 3 days before or 5 days before time periods. Only major works (i.e. full road closures or works taking over 10+ days on the highway) would require the minimum 12 weeks notice (and even then the Highway Authority can be contacted to agree early starts).

What about if you live in a conservation area?
I know where we are any bit of work like digging up our garden path, installing new windows, a new roof etc. requires planning permission.

I am not arguing, I am only going by what my road and side roads are like.

Paul

In short it's still the NRSWA that covers utilities working in the public highway (and the Electronic Communications Code for telecoms providers).
NRSWA - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/22/contents
Electronic Communications Code - https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-telecoms-and-interne...

Works in a conservation area are subject to further scrutiny when it comes to such phases as agreeing Permit conditions (especially for planned works) and the reinstatement of the works. Any special materials used in the make up of the highway will need to be replaced with like for like material (paving stones, brick sets etc..). It's similar to you applying for planning permission and a condition of permission being you have to used X or Y materials in any construction.

Utility work can require further permissions from other organisations pending where they are carried out. Railways, monuments, structures (bridges, culverts etc.) SSSI, National Cycle routes, PRoW etc. will often mean meetings between the interested parties take place to agree permissions, conditions of works etc. prior to the Notice/Permit being processed by the Highway Authority.

Edited by deleted (Fri 14-Apr-17 12:49:46)

What's a BT66, my wall has a chalk mark with an X and BT66. Some sort of junction box?

In reply to a post by Banger:

What's a BT66, my wall has a chalk mark with an X and BT66. Some sort of junction box?

Looks like you are going to have a nice external junction box - sometimes they are the favourite hiding place for spiders. I had to tease a very large spider out of my external one the other day because his web-like nest may have been causing a short over the screw terminals!

Best of luck with the rewiring job - CW1308 cable from the external junction box to the back of the NTE5 plus the other work planed (?) should solve your VDSL issues.

Cheers still waiting for notification of duct work, nothing happening over Easter.

Old phone lines are a pain - I've just had to force ADSL2 on my former ADSL2+ connection (37dB ADSL2+ attenuation) since I was getting high downstream error rates. ADSL2 seems to be far more stable at the moment. May have to contact Matt at xilo about it after Easter. VDSL is available from my cabinet but I don't really have any confidence in the integrity of the D-Side underground cable at the moment.

That is exactly my problem and OR have promised to replace with twisted pair as its under the drive. When they tested at the boundary connection post the sync was 53 and at my house 40. Its DW6 according to the engineer but it seems there is a lot of loss on that cable. It wasn't to bad on ADSL2+ was getting about 16 but VDSL is a different beast altogether using a lot higher frequencies and suffers from noise a lot more. The drive also has the mains for the house under it.

Yep, as answered, but a picture here A grey plastic box to house the junction between UG cable and the cable going on to the NTE.

(The other poster mentions screw terminals, yours WONT have them, and neither should his TBF)

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

(The other poster mentions screw terminals, yours WONT have them, and neither should his TBF)

What do you use now - jelly crimps as a possible replacement in an old BT66?

Edited by 4M2 (Sun 16-Apr-17 14:38:58)

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Yep, as answered, but a picture here A grey plastic box to house the junction between UG cable and the cable going on to the NTE.

(The other poster mentions screw terminals, yours WONT have them, and neither should his TBF)

Thanks for that gosh its ugly.

gosh its ugly.

Completely commonplace, they are everywhere, maybe only apparent to those looking to see them ?

What do you use now - jelly crimps as a possible replacement in an old BT66?

Exactly that. Those old brass inserts are the home of HR faults.

The dig has begun.

Ooooooooh !

In reply to a post by Banger:

The dig has begun.

Nice, I hope we get some lovely pictures

Paul

No pictures or the 2 lads will think I am checking on them. Although they did say the original duct is just under the surface and is broken.

Edit: Looks like they are doing the footway also outside my property as there is a roadworks.org note outside my building to insert "2m of poly duct 1 way in footway".

Edited by Banger (Wed 19-Apr-17 15:26:09)

Excellent news

In reply to a post by Banger:

No pictures or the 2 lads will think I am checking on them. Although they did say the original duct is just under the surface and is broken.

Edit: Looks like they are doing the footway also outside my property as there is a roadworks.org note outside my building to insert "2m of poly duct 1 way in footway".

Nice

Not long now

Paul

They have left for the day so took some pics.

https://ibb.co/e63JgQ
https://ibb.co/mcoC85
https://ibb.co/b4Rcak
https://ibb.co/bCDC85
https://ibb.co/ctBX85
https://ibb.co/h6mAvk

The fresh grey pipe is the new duct with old duct next to it, they couldn't go any deeper because of gas and electric cables.

Nice

Paul

If they have exposed all the old duct, why aren't they removing it?

Probably still got the telephone line in it which won't be disconnected until the new duct is ready!

In reply to a post by Banger:

They have left for the day so took some pics.

https://ibb.co/e63JgQ

The fresh grey pipe is the new duct with old duct next to it, they couldn't go any deeper because of gas and electric cables.

You do realise that the twist in that blue rope is the wrong way! Hope the cable is twisted te right way or cross talk will be ampliied rather than cancelled out!

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by Banger:

They have left for the day so took some pics.

https://ibb.co/e63JgQ

The fresh grey pipe is the new duct with old duct next to it, they couldn't go any deeper because of gas and electric cables.

You do realise that the twist in that blue rope is the wrong way! Hope the cable is twisted te right way or cross talk will be ampliied rather than cancelled out!

I hope you jest sir.

In reply to a post by jaydub:

If they have exposed all the old duct, why aren't they removing it?

They old cable still in there, these lads are contractors and Openreach will have to come yet to pull the cable through new duct and connect up.

No idea if they are removing old duct or just back filling.

Jest, me ? Never. Check with Zarjaz.

Did anything appear on roadworks from the council?

Looks like they are doing the footway also outside my property as there is a roadworks.org note outside my building to insert "2m of poly duct 1 way in footway".

The most obvious reason would be that Banger's current connection is still operating via the old ducts contents.

Just open the picture up in a photo editor and mirror the image - then it will be the right way

That ducting is very shallow, if you want to relay your drive your going to have problems, as hardcore,paving(finish surface) would put you above or very closer to your house dpc, there should be 150mm btween dpc & ground level.

Ideally that ducting should be down 300mm minmum.

Yes it main reason is because it is on top of gas and mains pipes. The lads couldn't dig any deeper for fear of hitting the gas.

New twisted 2 pair is in, old sync with G.INP 55/11 new sync with new cable 66/19. Pleased its all sorted apart from contractors need to come back and fill in the trench.

Just goes to show what a different [censored] cable makes.

I was losing 2meg of sync on ADSL on 5m of builder installed wiring from the BT66 to the NTE.

I now get a massive 2.6meg

Openreach bod told me he had to put 33m in of cable which was from a 200m drum which he had to go and pick up as he didn't have enough on the van, very nice chap.

And all spotted from one picture you posted

I should do this for a living

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

Is interleaving on? If it is, don't mess with the connection and you can expect another few Mbps in 2-3 days .

See this post and the timescale following it for G.INP to kick in .

G.INP is still active Openreach didn't reset DLM which is ok or I would be down to around 55m.

Contractors have began putting my drive back together.