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Hello
Hoping someone might have some info on this. I live on Winwick Park in Warrington (WA2), its got a bit of a weird setup even though its not a huge estate it has 4 separate phone cabs. When it was first built it trialled a new tech not using copper, but was converted to copper to make ADSL work.
3 of these cabs were upgraded to FTTC 18 months ago including mine cab 210. But one was deemed to small to be upgraded at the time.
Openreach have been busy on the estate recently and when quizzed by a neighbour they said they were putting FTTP into the entire estate and it should be ready in the next 4 weeks.
I noticed FTTP on demand has suddenly become available, will they mean this or could they mean the more available FTTP? Surely they wouldn't have both FTTP and FTTC available?
Edited by kingbiscit (Fri 12-May-17 14:37:34)
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Mixed FTTP and FTTC does occur in a few places, with users able to order either. Odd though that is.
FTTP on Demand (FTTPoD) is not what they mean. At least not its current incarnation. That currently has a minimum installation cost of £1100 from Openreach, with the ISPs almost certainly charging is more, and similarly a line rental of £99 per month for a minimum period of three years. After which it drops to normal FTTP rental process.
That too increased by ISPs who of course have to provide and support the considerable backhaul capacity needed, and all the above plus Vat by the time it gets to us.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 64513/13170Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6 |
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Thanks for replying.
The resisdents on the final cab that hasn't been upgraded have been campaigning and Openreach have so far seem pretty reluctant to install an FTTC cab down to the low numbers. The local MP was recently in the press pushing for compensation (http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/04/warrington-mp-demands-246k-compensation-slow-residential-broadband.html
).I do wonder if Openreach have decided FTTP for the estate is actually simpler.
It always seemed odd to me they didn't go FTTP route rather than having to install 4 FTTC cabs.
Edited by kingbiscit (Fri 12-May-17 14:04:45)
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Only those on 122 are planned to get FTTP
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Interesting.
Whole setup has been madness, why wouldn't they have just done the whole estate like that?
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Cost. You might think 3 cabinets would be expensive but compared to the potential of running new cable in to every home it is much cheaper in the majority of cases.
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https://www.homeandwork.openreach.co.uk/when-can-i-g... and an example postcode WA2 8XL
And the FTTP part is hardly a secret since it says in the plans for FTTP
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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The estate has ducts all the way round it though, so no digging required. They have had to run fibre past pretty much every house for the 3 FTTC cabs.
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And?
Its in the plan for FTTP on at least some locations...so is the complaint about the timescale for delivery of FTTP?
The fibre may pass homes, but for GPON you will build out from the aggregation node, ignoring the actual cabinets.
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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I'm not complaining.
I just find it odd that a single modern estate with ducts , probably 150 or so houses have FTTC via 3 separate cabs, then 20-30 houses have FTTP.
Seems a real mess.
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The digging generally is for the final few metres in to the house itself. If it is underground cable then running the cable those final few metres can be an issue (and even if there are ducts they may have collapsed and need replacing). FTTC was generally chosen nationwide as the default because it removes the need to dig up people's gardens/driveways/patios/etc to get a cable in (for FTTC the phone cable is there already).
FTTC is the default option. FTTP in most areas is currently done as a last resort by BT. That will likely change in future but is the current reality.
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Speed of deployment, FTTC is quicker to deploy and needs less labour to deliver.
FTTP in addition to the fibres going to the aggregation node, they need to then run fibres to a splitter, and then each DP needs a fibre manifold, so as part of the roll-out you need to get fibre to a point that is within a short distance of around 10 premises. Its the extra time that this takes that is the issue.
So nothing odd at all, but a simple labour and cost of labour and time exercise.
If the roll-out is happening commercially it is also likely to be slower as there are penalty clauses in the BDUK contracts, so hitting those targets is important.
In the last year the processes used to deploy FTTP have become simpler, hence the up turn in the amount rolled out.
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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That makes sense.
Out of interest if fibre is on my estate and I have FTTC will I one day be able to upgrade to FTTP at a reasonable price, or do you think it will stay like this for a long time.
It was such a battle to get FTTC because my cab has such low numbers I can't see them rushing to enable GFAST.
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That would currently be the Fibre on Demand product which currently is not at a reasonable price.
As for when that might change all depends on how popular the FTTP services prove i.e. will people only pay the price of the lowest spec product or is their higher incremental revenue as more buy the faster options.
NOTE: In a year or so time the FTTC areas may actually be cheaper for broadband than FTTP due to changes Ofcom is putting in place.
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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That makes sense.
I'll just add to MrSaffron's account: Generally, the capital investment for FTTP is calculated to be around 4x - 5x that of FTTC.
Out of interest if fibre is on my estate and I have FTTC will I one day be able to upgrade to FTTP at a reasonable price, or do you think it will stay like this for a long time.
As it stands, FTTPoD has the high costs as MrSaffron said. But the installation is dependent on the distance to the aggregation node. With 4 cabs close, the distance to an aggregation node isn't likely to be high.
In addition, your future likelihood of BT-funded FTTP might depend on the way your ducting was built. BT recently ran a trial in Swindon, putting fibre into a recent estate where the ducting was suitable. If the new Openreach consultation results in an improved rollout, that kind of "properly-ducted estate" might find itself in favour.
It was such a battle to get FTTC because my cab has such low numbers I can't see them rushing to enable GFAST.
What will matter for G.Fast is how many subscribers are within 200-300m of the cabinet, rather than the total number served. You might find yourself in a better position with that criteria.
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Tries to refrain from shouting...but the checkers are showing addresses on the estate that don't have FTTC already are in the plans for FTTP
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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I'm aware. So I'm not sure which bit you need to refrain from shouting about. My comment about FTTPoD?
If so, then note that my comment relates to the properties on the estate that do have FTTC, aren't in the plans for FTTP, but do mention FTTPoD.
Or was it about the Swindon trial?
If so, then that might be a part of the reason as to why the addresses without FTTC can now look forward to FTTP. And that reasoning could easily extend to any FTTP deployments negotiated beyond 2020.
Or is it about the capex cost multiplier of FTTP?
If so, then those numbers are an aggregate, wide-area generalisation. They can't hope to depict the nuances involved in delivering to a small part of an estate.
Or was it about G.Fast?
If so, then I can't think of anything to respond with.
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Was re-highlighting that original poster can see native FTTP on the way now.
Extended discussion on costs and other things are irrelevant if Openreach (or even if gap funded) is now saying FTTP on the way. Looking at estate layout very very very unlikely that any of the FTTC is going to get a native FTTP overlay.
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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Maybe the confusion comes from what the OP was told by the neighbour. Openreach have been busy on the estate recently and when quizzed by a neighbour they said they were putting FTTP into the entire estate and it should be ready in the next 4 weeks.
I noticed FTTP on demand has suddenly become available We have no idea what the engineer(s) said to the neighbour and how cognisant that neighbour is of the difference between FTTP and FTTPoD. If the neighbour had also seen FTTPoD on their own estimate and had been told the current work was for FTTP, nuff said about a passed on message getting garbled.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 64513/13170Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6 |
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Was re-highlighting that original poster can see native FTTP on the way now.
That's to other properties on the estate. His cabinet is one of the ones that has FTTC.
So your later point is important:
Looking at estate layout very very very unlikely that any of the FTTC is going to get a native FTTP overlay.
In which case, those extended discussions *are* relevant, because they are the only way that the OP is likely to be able to get a pure-fibre connection himself.
The discussions are very forward-looking, and open to all sorts of changes. But the OP was asking for that...
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Thanks for the replies everyone.
When I first posted I was hoping the entire estate was getting FTTP, including those with FTTC already. The BT engineer told a neighbour who already has FTTC that the entire was getting FTTP hence the confusion.
@witchunt cleared it up that just cab 124 is getting FTTP.
This then made me question whether I would be able to get FTTP in the future, if FTTP on demand is priced more realistically.
I'm completely happy to cover an installation cost, even at something like £500-£1000 as I think it puts value on my house and I don't plan on moving. I just think its unreasonable to put me on a completely different pricing structure monthly.
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Nobody knows BTs future plans for FTTPoD pricing. Once they have got BDUK out of the way they might reduce them as more resource could be available to do the installs (high prices are a good way of controlling demand if you have limited resources). It is currently aimed as a business product so pricing is not so bad compared to alternatives but is out of most people's reach as a residential consumer. Plus BT are doing their G.Fast plans and they may want to concentrate on that to get a higher hit rate than individual FTTPoD installs.
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Makes sense.
I hope Openreach change so FTTPoD once installed is same as standard FTTP. I think there is a market out there where people would be willing to pay £500-£1000 cost to have it installed. For me I'd do it, I just wouldn't be willing to pay more monthly.
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The minimum install charge by Openreach to ISPs and wholesalers is £1100 + Vat, and that only covers up to 199 metres from the aggregation point. Then it goes up by £700 for each 200 metre increment until 999 metres. Above that is 1499m at £4375, 1999m at £6125, then Price on Application.
The high three year rental with a minimum term of three years is believed to be to recover the costs of installation that haven't been included in the above.
All are also subject to survey and possible extra costs due to problems found. Then add on the ISP/Wholesaler profit margin and normal costs/charges for the actual broadband service backhaul, routing, CS and more ....
Although upcoming cheaper ways of making the physical connections once the fibre cabling is in place are expected, I don't see the civil works needed to get it in place coming down much in price. Though the FoD2 prices are expected to be lower.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 64513/13170Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6 |
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And I suspect that the pressure to roll-out in volume will mean pressures on availability of labour will mean it can continue to command a premium price
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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Labour and no doubt civil works contractors as well, who knowing that Openreach will be under pressure to deliver aren't going to be standing there with begging bowls.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 64513/13170Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6 |
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For me I'd do it, I just wouldn't be willing to pay more monthly.
Where is the incentive for service providers to buy into the product if they make nothing extra from it ?
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My house is less than 80m from the cab with modern ducting straight to my garden.
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My house is less than 80m from the cab with modern ducting straight to my garden.
But FTTPoD doesn't come from your cab, it comes from the aggregation node.
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Arrr ok. Didn't realise that.
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