What happened to all the tech stuff?

It's many years since I discovered this excellent site so please forgive the nostalgia. Time was that posts were filled with all sorts of fascinating problems, usually swiftly solved by TBB's willing enthusiasts who shared their body of knowledge. Some of them (eg Bob) even put up informative websites to help solve our frequent problems.

Then came fibre and the tech queries seem to have disappeared apart from those poor folk still stuck on ADSL, and instead the most popular subject (apart from prices of course) seems to be how to decipher the weird squiggles on roads around the cabinets, how soon fibre can be connected, and how even faster speeds can be attained. Is fibre that much more reliable, as I am finding for myself?

I've found that too, but I think you've answered your own question:

In reply to a post by Malwaremike:

Is fibre that much more reliable, as I am finding for myself?

Yes

But a decent ISP helps!

In reply to a post by billford:

In reply to a post by Malwaremike:

Is fibre that much more reliable, as I am finding for myself?

Yes

Assuming you mean VDSL, for me, no difference. The problems I had on ADSL all related to wiring issues within a couple of meters of the property which would affect VDSL just as much.

But most ADSLx problems were long solved, and other than new ones inevitably arising in the network aren't likely to recur. Plus most carefully phrased searches on here would throw up the answers.

Similarly with VDSL2 in fact. It is mainly installed onto ADSLx circuits that have already been optimised by residents or Openreach. As a result there have always been fewer problems on it once teething ones in the network and poor modems were largely eliminated. Quite apart from the reduction in copper length involved.

Forums such as this one will have to evolve to mainly discussions of "Which ISP?" and FTTP v 4G/5G. I don't expect 5G to become ubiquitous in the next decade unless its range per mast is vastly increased.

Even the question of poor DSL at holiday lets will go if they all have FTTP.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Even the question of poor DSL at holiday lets will go if they all have FTTP.

The next big buzz around the forum will probably be the widescale rollout of FTTP whenever that happens. FTTPoD of course exists but few can justify the outlay. I only recently joined the FTTC party having decided 14 meg ADSL2+ suited my needs adequately, long after my cab was enabled.

The low marginal extra cost of FTTC finally moved "nice to have" into "worth having".

True. But even that will make it just be a centre for expressions of pleasure.

There could be a rise in VOIP queries I expect, and there isn't much yet about VPNs as those are still a niche market.

I found my Norton IS system (not Norton 360) included one at last renewal. As it seems 360 now does too. I might try it some day, but not sure what for.

I heard Norton promoting their VPN on the radio, it sounded like they were pushing the VPN service primarily for people using public wi-fi.

In reply to a post by billford:

But a decent ISP helps!

Ah yes: the hunt for the elusive decent ISP.

Ma;waremike.

When all you can get is 2-4Mbit every little bit of technical help mattered, as you move to 40-75Mb you do not notice if you lose 5--10Mb so help is not required by as many people. Only those testing their connection regularly notice when they lose some bandwidth and they usually know enough to check what needs checking.

On the higher bandwidth services, ( over 40Mb ) unless users do a speed test, they only notice if there is congestion or contention at the distant end. Except WiFi issues or 4+ people households.

On FTTP and GBit services these are the frequent complaints that files don't load at full speed by those that do not understand the distant servers contend users for their ( frequently less than 1Gb ) bandwidth.

None of these issues require technical input at a user end. So we tend to only get router setup and Wifi issues, usually 2.4 verses 5Gb frequency splits.

Seems like there are many complainers going from 70mbps down to 60mbps and want to know why.

The odd person also wants 300mbps on their VM connection and only get 200mbps.

The phrase "up to" has been banned but that is what everyone pays for.

Thanks folks, kitcat's theory of relativity pretty well answers my question while Bob's prediction seems all too accurate. Nothing stays the same especially in the tech industry, it's just that many people who remember putting two old pennies in the slot and pressing button A or B as required are finding it harder and harder to keep up with it!

In reply to a post by Malwaremike:

... it's just that many people who remember putting two old pennies in the slot and pressing button A or B as required are finding it harder and harder to keep up with it!

Most of the people reading that post won�t have a clue what you are talking about LOL. If interested, they�d have to google it, and not having tried I�m not sure they would find the answer.

In reply to a post by Malwaremike:

... people who remember putting two old pennies in the slot and pressing button A or B as required

Ah yes, the good old days of the GPO, who doesn't look back on them fondly?

Well I don't for a start

Ummm.

Didn�t they used to deliver letters reliably, twice a day, to almost everywhere? Sometimes same day?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Didn�t they used to deliver letters reliably, twice a day, to almost everywhere? Sometimes same day?

Yes, but that's what they were originally set up to do. Diversification into other fields of communication turned out not to be their strongest point

Interestingly, lots of public wi-fi spots prevent vpn use - for example Premier Inn hotels and SouthWesternRailway

In reply to a post by Malwaremike:

Thanks folks, kitcat's theory of relativity pretty well answers my question while Bob's prediction seems all too accurate. Nothing stays the same especially in the tech industry, it's just that many people who remember putting two old pennies in the slot and pressing button A or B as required are finding it harder and harder to keep up with it!

So when did it go up to 4d?

In reply to a post by ukwiz:

Interestingly, lots of public wi-fi spots prevent vpn use - for example Premier Inn hotels and SouthWesternRailway

Good reason to avoid them. Is this both SSL and IPsec VPNs?

Don't remember it being 4d, Michael. STD came in around 60 years ago when the old 'Button A and B' coinboxes were replaced by boxes taking higher denominations. I think the lowest was 3d (the thrupenny bit) and next up was the silver sixpence.

The amount charged depended on time and distance; I was working near London at the time and 3d would give 15 seconds on a 400-mile call to my home base. This was enough to advise my ETA etc. in the days when 'get mobile' could mean a half-mile walk to the phone box, where we stood in the rain waiting for someone else to finish what was always an interminable local call.

Technology certainly has brought some benefits!

4d as I recall. When STD came along it went up to 6d. I don't ever recall it being 2d, but maybe I'm not old enough (but I'm working on it).

https://www.btplc.com/Thegroup/BTsHistory/1912to1968...

Looks like it started at 2d, went to 3d, then 4d. 60p today!

John

Edited by JHo1 (Fri 25-Oct-19 16:53:23)

Strange too, how telephone boxes can harbour adverts that might lead to STD�s, and also, the odd thruppenny bit on the floor.

Enough of nostalgia (yes, I remember buttons A and B). I have noticed for some time that activity on these forums has reduced enormously, many sub forums having no posts for several months at a time. Even the main site rarely has anything of note. The days of thinkforum seem to be over.

Everybody everywhere is too busy squabbling about Brexit ...

... there�s a rose spectacled past I fondly hanker for ... no sodding Brexit.

A lot of younger people sadly see the internet as �twitter� or �facebook�. The articles on the main site can get index and referenced by other media sites, but the forums are very specialist.

The lack of STEM skills and DIY in the younger generations is concerning. I know a handful of 20 somethings whom just use computers, no idea about how things work, and not interested. I assume the same for broadband!!

The site DigitalSpy has a forum about Mobile Phones which covers mobile broadband, but it is a worse signal to noise ratio.

Perhaps this is because the IT/computer industry has finally reached its mid 40s, and this a technical mid-life crisis.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Ummm.

Didn�t they used to deliver letters reliably, twice a day, to almost everywhere? Sometimes same day?

With an overnight success rate in the 1980s for letters not posted in the local area of somewhere about 80% IIRC. First quarter results for 2019 show that 93.2% of all first class letters achieved next day delivery. (You may guess I have a bit of a vested interest from my handle!).

My wife started work in the GPO, ending up in the telecoms side when it was split up. I currently receive half her pension since she died. So I have a vested interest in BT.

I'm not sure how comparable those two percentages are though, given the volume of both first and second class has decreased considerably, and mechanisation of sorting would have occurred at some point.

I do know that a postperson's job these days is horrendously hard work, with very high pressure.

I have noticed for some time that activity on these forums has reduced enormously ... Even the main site rarely has anything of note. The days of thinkforum seem to be over.

Yes, this is what I was hinting in my OP. Still a great site when one needs a helping hand.

To an extent, Mike, the most technical people have as a group either stopped visiting forums like this one entirely or do so far more rarely.

The SNR on them dropped substantially as the topic became more mainstream.

You can only read people ranting in all capitals, people talking out of their hindmost and trolls so many times before you get tired of it and retreat to closed industry / professional boards.

More ISPs have their own forums where their first line support guys can assist their own customers too.

Edited by CarlTSpeak (Sat 26-Oct-19 16:50:40)

In reply to a post by Malwaremike:

I have noticed for some time that activity on these forums has reduced enormously ... Even the main site rarely has anything of note. The days of thinkforum seem to be over.

Yes, this is what I was hinting in my OP. Still a great site when one needs a helping hand.

Everyone on this forum has their own reasons for being here, some are here because they have an issue, some are here because they have something to say and probably most of us are here because we have nothing better to do

Maybe those that attend are a changing but while people have issues its still one of the main go to places to get help.

Edited by deleted (Sat 26-Oct-19 17:36:16)

Most unhygienic!

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

With an overnight success rate in the 1980s for letters not posted in the local area of somewhere about 80% IIRC. First quarter results for 2019 show that 93.2% of all first class letters achieved next day delivery. (You may guess I have a bit of a vested interest from my handle!).

One might suggest with large numbers of postboxes changed to a last collection in the region of 09:00-10:00 in the morning that an increase in the next day for first class is hardly surprising.

It's like taking an axe to ~20% of the A level Physics syllabus and saying standards have not dropped because the quality of the answers is the same!!!

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Everybody everywhere is too busy squabbling about Brexit ...

... there�s a rose spectacled past I fondly hanker for ... no sodding Brexit.

Hopefully the squabbling will stop once the democratic will of the UK people is achieved

The great majority of the uplift in performance occurred long before the cost-driven removal of box collections. I can bore for England about mail circulation and mail processing if you want a longer discussion.

Edited by GonePostal (Sat 26-Oct-19 23:41:09)

A choice is made

a) Cover every piece of PR material that arrives
OR
b) Curate what gets added to news, remembering we don't copy/paste press releases and will take a bit of time looking into coverage claims etc

Reality of the future is that FTTP is a stable technology, so the only news is pricing and availability

The tracking down of availability is the big time consumer.

The rise in forum posts about mobile broadband has been most notable to me over the current year and also people wanting broadband without an attached telephone service.

Edited by deleted (Mon 28-Oct-19 11:00:51)

We have added the unlimited SIM deals to listings too.

The not wanting phone service is driven by the incorrect belief that they will be able to just pay £4 or £5/m for broadband if they can ditch the £20 line rental element. Alas this is not the case and prices may actually go up as the switch to voice over broadband (or just using your mobile) rises.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Alas this is not the case and prices may actually go up as the switch to voice over broadband (or just using your mobile) rises.

One only has to look at the price of calls now, BT charge 20p per minute to call landlines and mobiles vs 3p on O2/Three PAYG mobile. I can only imagine very few would be willing to pay BT's nonsense prices.

Clearly the intention is to push people onto call packages and a steadier fixed income stream, but more likely many will just abandon the landline for calls altogether.

Could it be that they are trying to scare up some revenue to fund all this fibre they are rolling out ?

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Could it be that they are trying to scare up some revenue to fund all this fibre they are rolling out ?

We should probably give our thanks to the grannies who aren't aware of call packages and who are spending a fortune to fund the fibre rollout, I guess.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Alas this is not the case and prices may actually go up as the switch to voice over broadband (or just using your mobile) rises.

One only has to look at the price of calls now, BT charge 20p per minute to call landlines and mobiles vs 3p on O2/Three PAYG mobile. I can only imagine very few would be willing to pay BT's nonsense prices.

Clearly the intention is to push people onto call packages and a steadier fixed income stream, but more likely many will just abandon the landline for calls altogether.

Quite - why bother with a landline call package when you've already got one on your mobile (as many people do). Of course not everyone has mobile reception where they live, though - in theory at least - coverage should be gradually improving all the time.

I've set a couple of landline users up with the 18185 call-through service (Gigaset DECT cordless phone systems can be programmed to add the 18185 prefix automatically), which provides for far cheaper landline calls. The quality isn't necessarily amazing though (calls are routed through various VOIP gateways), and mobile to mobile calls can nowadays often provide better quality.

Oh no Mr S, TBB does a brilliant job on content and it's so refreshing to find any site or printed publication that is not full of PR puff and advertorial. I was referring to the problem solving that used to be a regular requirement, I found TBB posters very helpful when I went to ADSL from dial-up. For the past few years my Plusnet package has been faultless and I suppose other people also benefit from greater reliability. Now if anyone could fix the Plusnet billing system ...

In reply to a post by binary:

Of course not everyone has mobile reception where they live, though - in theory at least - coverage should be gradually improving all the time.

My mobile has native wi-fi calling, which means I can make calls over the internet which are then billed to my mobile phone. No app required. A great feature for people in mobile not-spots.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Could it be that they are trying to scare up some revenue to fund all this fibre they are rolling out ?

I remember a friend who told me the fees were going up where he parked his car as they were promising big improvements, rather than moving his car he paid the increased fees and looked forward to the improvements. A year down the line the improvements were finally complete and he got a new message from the owner thanking him for his patience during the upgrade of the car park but also advising the fees were going up (again) because of the improvements to the car park.

The moral to this story is people often pay toward upgrades and often pay more after because of the upgrades.

Edited by deleted (Mon 28-Oct-19 15:25:57)

How many landline providers ban the use of prefixes?

I haven't used a landline to make calls in several years.

In reply to a post by hk11:

How many landline providers ban the use of prefixes?

BT, Plusnet and at least some other Openreach WLR providers allow it.

However 18185 and some others also provide an alternative 0800/0808 freephone access number, albeit at different (generally slightly higher) call rates - they label this Mobile Rates but as they make clear on that page it can be used by "all non-BT landline" customers.

I must admit I can't recall if the Gigaset phone systems allow for an 11 digit 'prefix' to be saved.

The other issue with the Gigaset phone arrangement is that it only catches numbers dialled with a full STD area code (e.g. starting 01, 02, 03, 07 etc) - at least that's how I managed to set it up - so anyone dialling locally without the area code will have their call charged by BT or whoever the line provider is. (Obviously you can add in the prefix for any numbers saved as speed dials or in the phone's address book.)

And prior to that the major providers all offered femtocells (and probably still do) to get around the poor reception issue. I had one for years because due to the construction of the house (some sort of ferrite based material in the bricks) reception indoors is very poor.

In reply to a post by binary:

The other issue with the Gigaset phone arrangement is that it only catches numbers dialled with a full STD area code (e.g. starting 01, 02, 03, 07 etc)

Under 'Management>Local Settings' you set a Local area code and use 'Telephony>Dialling Plans' to manage where its used or not used.

Edited by deleted (Tue 29-Oct-19 11:41:58)

Another query please: I'm familiar with the pair of wires in every electrical circuit, be they positive or negative, live or 'neutral', one out and one back. I've recently looked inside the Virgin connection point outside my house and there appears to be only one hair-thin fibre. Presumably this carries both upload and download, and traffic is converted by the modem within the router?

Fibre carries data as light and by using different frequencies the same light pipe can carry multiple signals in either direction.

Virgin Media for the areas where the fibre extends to the customer (only 2% of customers) terminate the fibre on the outside of the property and a small fibre to coax converter lives on the outside wall. The other 98% there is coax cable from the cabinet to the property.

So customer sees no difference they still have a piece of coax cable going into the virgin modem/router.

In reply to a post by Malwaremike:

It's many years since I discovered this excellent site so please forgive the nostalgia. Time was that posts were filled with all sorts of fascinating problems, usually swiftly solved by TBB's willing enthusiasts who shared their body of knowledge. Some of them (eg Bob) even put up informative websites to help solve our frequent problems.

Then came fibre and the tech queries seem to have disappeared apart from those poor folk still stuck on ADSL, and instead the most popular subject (apart from prices of course) seems to be how to decipher the weird squiggles on roads around the cabinets, how soon fibre can be connected, and how even faster speeds can be attained. Is fibre that much more reliable, as I am finding for myself?

I would argue (and I�ll be shot down for this I�m sure) that Openreach have successfully invested in the network and there�s less faults and problems in general.

Of course getting most people off standard ADSL/+ products will help, as you get rid of the E-side. But I saw a huge amount of investment in new cables in the ground, new types of DP, new types of tool-less cabinets etc. All helps.

I�m going to have to disagree with your comments about new DP�s and the truly awful �tool-less� cabs ....... they are pants.

I don't remember that much tech stuff other than remove the bellwire.

What's wrong with toolless? Other than it's gonna be a big RSI claim for the jointers that build them in the years ahead ( there is a reason man invented tools )

They VERY often don�t take.

Unless you have long bulletproof fingernails, you�ll need 81�s to pull the tabs out. (and that damages the tabs)

They provide no additional space.

Not so easy to accurately detect tones.

Have been told they are �good for three terminations only�.

Called �tool less� but you need a flimsy adaptor which isn�t built to last.

Krone .... we had the answer all those years ago.

In reply to a post by Icaras:

tool-less cabinets

Any pictures available of the tool-less connections in the cabinet? I know some people will still consider crimps better than Krone strips when it comes to better made connections but didn't mind either to be honest just wasn't a lover of tag blocks when wrapping the jumper wire around them with 81's.

Rebuilt a 16 vert one last month and my hands still hurt. Use your crimpers to hook them.

There is a definite knack to termination, you get a 'feel' for it. First one we did when they first turned up had many faults, last one no more than normal.

Jumpering is very good. Last 16 vert Quante I did I couldn't trace jumpers on day 1.

The design spec is 100x repeat termination 0.4-0.63mm and 50x 0.8mm (red/blue is 0.8mm - not permissable to subsequent use narrower gauge )

I contacted the product owner on day one and advised they went dis in the back, took 3 times as long to terminate and 3 vert drop was not going to fit many cabs. He advised me it was all engineer pilot error ; )

Krone were good but CSEs don't appear to have tents any more and desiccants are criminally abandoned ( hence PC100 faults ) Krone offers no protection against moisture so they would have to be dipped in grease and the transmission values which are already poorer would worsen.

Holster your solder, Dect, they are using Cobinet LSA-TL terminations now for cabinet and pole top.

OK, thanks for the tip, will give it a go.

I didn�t like Quante either, not enough space round them.

Not encountered an issue with damp affecting Krone like that. And wholeheartedly agree on desi pack removal being a dumb move.

Edited by Zarjaz (Wed 30-Oct-19 18:29:44)

In reply to a post by partial:

Holster your solder

oh joy a gas soldering iron

Edited by deleted (Wed 30-Oct-19 14:14:06)

I did give it a go ..... worked OK, but worked better when there�s no little coloured tab on the port too.

If you�re bored PCP19 Blackwater is sorely in need of sorting out

I would say that things just became a little more stable. I frequented this forum many many years ago, campaigned for ADSL (successfully ) and created techie screen scrapers for BT Thermometer that were used on several community sites.

Now ... well, there are still the poor folks that are stuck in the middle of no-where looking for faster broadband but there isn't that much that can be done certainly from a technical perspective. There has been some activity in the Mobile forum as that seems to be the hope of the speedless.

As you can see, I do still come here occasionally as people are still genuinely helpful if you do have a problem.

Some tech stuff still goes on see forum chain