New BTW Checker

Some may have noticed that part of the old BT Wholesale DSL checker have been broken for some time.

A new one has been launched at https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/ which seems to be fully functional.

Matt

That looks even better for me, can no longer check by NAD Key etc, but we can at least check via address or UPRN (as a fall back)

I did wonder that, I know when I reported the issue to them just over a month or so ago I was told that they was aware of it and that was all they said.

Paul

Thanks Matt .

Rather unresponsive though ...

First attempt took nearly 1 minute to respond with data and next two came back with: We are sorry but the checker is unavailable at the moment. Please try again later.

Then tried again on address and response was ADSL only, even though the actual address already has VDSL/FTTP and number check for teh same location now gives max achievable VDSL speeds well under half of what is currently being used.

Not really an improvement.

Edited by MHC (Sat 18-Apr-20 14:10:47)

Really?

I tried via UPRN and Address and both returned fine.

Seems that all the page data is returned as a JSON Serialized String, maybe that data isn't making it to you.

That red message is what I get for the old address checker.

Paul

MHC

Works ok for me, although needed a refresh to get it to load correctly.

Shows all the expected except the existing speed test.

It’s working for me but the data looks a bit outdated as our area was 1Gbps on the old version

WBC FTTP Up to 330 Up to 50 -- Available 2 Stage

Mine says the following:

WBC FTTP	Up to 1000	Up to 220	--	Available	KCI2 Assure

But ours has been at this speed for ages.

Paul

In reply to a post by MHC:

Then tried again on address and response was ADSL only, even though the actual address already has VDSL/FTTP and number check for teh same location now gives max achievable VDSL speeds well under half of what is currently being used.

Not really an improvement.

The old one has not done any address checks at all for the last few weeks. I suspect they're still getting some initial bugs out.

Matt

Is it actually any different apart from the layout? No new information as far as I can see.

I don't believe so, as yet at least. The address check works again which is a plus.

There will no doubt be reasons why they've done this but nothing they've disclosed.

Matt

The CAPCHA for a start. Reinforcing my suggestion the other day that the Address option on the previous version may have been being "script" accessed.

In reply to a post by MHC:

Is it actually any different apart from the layout? No new information as far as I can see.

Well I know the new layout seems to be reactive and now uses Bootstrap v4.3.1 and now scales the page to fit mobile and tablets devices as well as desktop browsers.

The data returned is a json serialized string, there is a couple of other stuff (like Brown and Green fields) not displayed, but other than that its the same, but this one works.

Paul

Disappointed with this new site, horrible lay out & dreadful hate this captcha which mean this site https://www.followthatpage.com/login are no longer work now for this. All spoilt and ruined. Thanks BTw for mess it up.

They also updated new BTw speedtest too: https://speedtest.btwholesale.com/

Edited by adslmax (Sun 19-Apr-20 13:02:39)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Reinforcing my suggestion the other day that the Address option on the previous version may have been being "script" accessed.

I'm sure there was a lot of excess load created by scripts and web page change monitors constantly querying the database.

Seems to work great. Thank you.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

I'm sure there was a lot of excess load created by scripts and web page change monitors constantly querying the database.

Yup. Great that they've done this. People with logins can continue to use those to run queries while people who monitor it for fun are now locked out ensuring legitimate, interactive queries can be done more quickly.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Disappointed with this new site, horrible lay out & dreadful hate this captcha which mean this site https://www.followthatpage.com/login are no longer work now for this. All spoilt and ruined. Thanks BTw for mess it up.

With all due I think denying people like yourself the ability to constantly, pointlessly query the Wholesale checker alongside freeing up resources for legitimate queries is hugely beneficial to everyone.

The new layout is excellent in my opinion. Scales properly according to screen resolution and is clearer. The output easier to parse via tools.

Edited by CarlTSpeak (Sun 19-Apr-20 13:45:14)

BTw speedtest are awful horrible layout! The upload are incorrect slow.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Disappointed with this new site, horrible lay out & dreadful hate this captcha which mean this site https://www.followthatpage.com/login are no longer work now for this. All spoilt and ruined. Thanks BTw for mess it up.

While the look isn't that nice it still works and displays the required information and its now caters for mobile and tablet viewing, they have separated the data and visualization which is the correct way to do things.
As for captcha sure its a hassle to keep having to enter this and sure they could of gone with reCAPTCHA v2 (invisible) or v3 which is automated and the viewer doesn't need to enter anything unless something the user is doing triggers something.

As for BT Wholesale ruined that follow that page, this captcha version won't stop automated lookups if they are determined enough to get around it.
As for follow that page site, they were/are breaking the terms of service which states that you are not allowed to use an automated / macro to do lookups, which that site was doing so.

Like back when I was doing huge and i mean huge amounts of lookups in a day, I wrote my own application that did a lookup every 5 seconds (to not impact their system) and that was working 24 / 7 where it went through a list of addresses that didn't have fibre and once completed it waited for the start of the next week, this went on for 2 years.
Then Wholesale caught on and IP's started to get banned / blocked, it was only when BT contacted me to stop, so I did.
A year or two later fibre became available so no need to do the lookups.

I now run stuff online myself and have seen some people use automated scripts and I can see it from the other side and I think that captcha is not a bad thing if you use the services as intended.
People are just being lazy, all it takes is to check it once a day or every few days.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

They also updated new BTw speedtest too: https://speedtest.btwholesale.com/

TBH I am not a fan of the change here, it gives me different results every time and its no way near my actual speed, some times it says I have 58Mbps then another try it says I have 1.8Gbits (I [censored] wish LOL)
Plus browser based speed checkers are not reliable due to each browser shows a different result, so in these cases a dedicated applications should be available.

Paul

In reply to a post by adslmax:

Disappointed with this new site, horrible lay out & dreadful hate this captcha which mean this site https://www.followthatpage.com/login are no longer work now for this. All spoilt and ruined. Thanks BTw for mess it up.

I doubt it was ever meant for mass automated queries in this way. The address data being open allowed for abuse so that could answer why that was taken off first. Companies pay a lot of money for the PAF data each year and this essentially gave anyone with a bit of scripting ability an easy way to get it.

There are still variables that can be passed to the URL to automate this but they are largely for service providers.

No one will know the exact reasons but there are some easy assumptions to make for the change both just because it needed a rebrand to that the other was being abused.

Matt

In reply to a post by adslmax:

The upload are incorrect slow.

Mine seems accurate, I ran it a few times too. https://i.ibb.co/z2hy6jz/image.png

I agree with you, myself being one of those people doing bulk lookups a few years back, BT was aware that I was doing and knew I was doing this for two years where my local MP told them that I had written an application that did checks for my area (well it checked all addresses on our exchange that didn't have fibre), only when BT said stop is when I stopped.

Now would I do all that again if needed, probably not.

I also think the changes that they have put in place including the captcha are a good thing.
The way I see it, they could of just locked it down for just ISP to use.

TBH I think it is now faster in displaying the page due to they are now doing it more better and correctly and the page is now reactive and works better on phones and tablets.

I think people will just moan due to change and nobody likes change, sure it looks different, but it displays all the required info so one cannot moan.

Paul

In reply to a post by adslmax:

BTw speedtest are awful horrible layout! The upload are incorrect slow.

Well when it works it displays it correctly shown >>> HERE <<<, the upload always remained correct, only the download was all over the place.

Paul

I completely agree that it was abused a lot, I know I did a lot a few years back, so I can see why they did these changes.

TBH I really think that change was for the better, the captcha they are using won't stop the automated scripts overall, but it will slow some of them down, just like the changes Openreach made for their checker to stop automation.

But as to why they did the changes, I think it was a bit of everything, optimization, reduce automated abuse, update outdated look etc.

TBH the old look was broken when they added information it broke the table layout, css was broken and now it looks a lot better, is it perfect, probably not, but its early days yet.

Paul

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

As for captcha sure its a hassle to keep having to enter this and sure they could of gone with reCAPTCHA v2 (invisible) or v3 which is automated and the viewer doesn't need to enter anything unless something the user is doing triggers something.

That would involve passing data to Google which they didn't necessarily want to do.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by adslmax:

The upload are incorrect slow.

Mine seems accurate, I ran it a few times too.

I think its hit and miss, I think you need to try different browsers and then keep using that browser for those checks in the future, that way you have information that you can compare with.

I did a few checks and at one point it told me that I had 1.8Gbits, I wish I had that speed, the latency and uploaded remained a constant value on all tests on that same browser.

I know I said I didn't like the changes of this speedtest, but overall its not that bad looking.

Both Wholesales DSL Checker and Speedtest are now reactive and using Bootstrap 4.3.1 and it looks just as good on my PC, Mobile and Tablet, thumbs up to them for their changes.

Paul

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

That would involve passing data to Google which they didn't necessarily want to do.

Even cloudflare have just dumped Google for this:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/04/09/cloudflare_...

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

As for captcha sure its a hassle to keep having to enter this and sure they could of gone with reCAPTCHA v2 (invisible) or v3 which is automated and the viewer doesn't need to enter anything unless something the user is doing triggers something.

That would involve passing data to Google which they didn't necessarily want to do.

This is true, that was the only issue I had when setting it up on parts that was being abused on our sites.

They could of just added a captcha on the root page before you got to any section that information is entered.

But at the end of the day it works and that they didn't need to allow the public to do these lookups.

I am liking this look over the old one.

Paul

@MartinDee23

Same here, was showing as 1000/220, had been for many months since my FTTP on Demand order got underway and it is now live, but dropped down to 330/30 just recently on the old checker and the same on this new one. The data is the same data. I checked some other addresses on the same exchange (new builds that got FTTP) and these still show 1000/220. I'm connected to Huawei kit with their ONT so not an ECI thing.

My guess is for some of us there is additional work required in the exchange to provide the 1000/220 speeds and during this lock down because they don't wish to send engineers to the exchange unnecessarily they've set the database to 330/30 so that we can't buy these upgrade speeds at the minute, i.e. saves orders coming in that they can't fulfil or that get stuck in the system.

In reply to a post by uno:

Some may have noticed that part of the old BT Wholesale DSL checker have been broken for some time.

A new one has been launched at https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/ which seems to be fully functional.

Matt

The old one worked fine for me yesterday, and at least it doesn't require captcha nor that I scroll my browser.

Address checker has been broken for some time. Now submission on any page or box seems to report a 404.

The new one was communicated out by BTW so I would expect to see the old page vanish entirely soon.

Edit: Looks like it has already.

Thank you for visiting the Broadband Availability Checker. We have moved to the new URL below.

Click the following url to continue https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com

Please bookmark this url to access it directly in future.

Thank you for your interest.

Matt

Edited by uno (Sun 19-Apr-20 18:00:12)

I've been using this one, seems to give alot of information on my FTTP line http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/totl.input

Think that one is being replaced by the new BBAC...

Matt

Getting a bizarre result from the new BTW Performance checker.

My FTTC line has a consistent sync of about 44/7 giving a throughput of about 39/6.

The BB Availability Checker agrees with what I expect but the new BTW Performance Checker reports a throughput of 78.99/6.43! Any thoughts?

In reply to a post by nellisere:

I've been using this one, seems to give alot of information on my FTTP line http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/totl.input

Yup, that's the one I've been using although I only use it occasionally to check the last detected line speed because my GH612 is still locked.

Indeed a long needed change to stop the likes of adslmax misusing the site.

In reply to a post by nellisere:

I've been using this one, seems to give alot of information on my FTTP line http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/totl.input

That requires a password. Though a link does exist on this site with one attached to the URL.

However if you check your link now, it may still work but has at the bottom:-

"This checker is being discontinued and is no longer supported. Our Enhanced Broadband Availability Checker is now available under E in Apps A-Z"

Yes, but mostly because Google were going to start charging them for the service

Might be so, but Cloudflare outlined their privacy & blocking concerns over ReCaptcha.

That said, I'm sure some people have privacy concerns over all the data passing via Cloudflare these days too.

In reference to blog.cloudflare.com/moving-from-recaptcha-to-hcaptcha/:

Privacy and Blocking Concerns

Since those early days, some customers have expressed concerns about using a Google service to serve CAPTCHAs. Google's business is targeting users with advertising. Cloudflare's is not. We have strict privacy commitments. We were able to get comfortable with the Privacy Policy around reCAPTCHA, but understood why some of our customers were concerned about feeding more data to Google.

We also had issues in some regions, such as China, where Google's services are intermittently blocked. China alone accounts for 25 percent of all Internet users. Given that some subset of those could not access Cloudflare's customers if they triggered a CAPTCHA was always concerning to us.

Over the years, the privacy and blocking concerns were enough to cause us to think about switching from reCAPTCHA. But, like most technology companies, it was difficult to prioritize removing something that was largely working instead of brand new features and functionality for our customers.

In reply to a post by jjgraphics:

Getting a bizarre result from the new BTW Performance checker.

My FTTC line has a consistent sync of about 44/7 giving a throughput of about 39/6.

The BB Availability Checker agrees with what I expect but the new BTW Performance Checker reports a throughput of 78.99/6.43! Any thoughts?

Still getting bizarre results: On tests with about 30 secs between each, now reporting
Test 1: 150.62/6.43
Test 2: 149.82/6.43
Test 3: 75.28/6.43
Test 4: 150.19/6.43
Test 5: 149.81/6.43

The upload of 6.43 is about right, but where are the download figures coming from?

Results are being returned consistent with what we would expect from our FTTC line,

There is a glitch after the Additional Diagnostic button. I am then taken to a screen where I can select from:

I have a Broadband Circuit ID
I am a ADSL and Fibre to the cabinet customer
I have a Fibre to the premises broadband.

If I select the ADSL/FTTC option I am asked to enter a postcode and house number after which I am told that FTTP is not available. If I select the FTTP option, I am then asked to enter my telephone number after which I get a revamped version of what used to show when the Further Diagnostics button was clicked on the old site. These statistics can now also be downloaded as a PDF report.

When I request the Additional Diagnostic and enter the details, I get a blank window.

In reply to a post by jjgraphics:

When I request the Additional Diagnostic and enter the details, I get a blank window.

Are you on a BT Wholesale connection, or some other?

Further Diagnostics can only work for BT Wholesale numbers. Because all it does apart from give a pretty graphic is look up the IP Profile. Non-BTW connections don't have an IP Profile.

I don't think it even works for Sky/TalkTalk/Other-issued numbers either, even if now used on on a BT Wholesale connection, but it might. If it doesn't it is a hangover "design feature". Normally called a bug.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 22-Apr-20 16:34:07)

It's a BT line.

I think that issue and the weird download speed test results I'm getting are definitely bugs!

Further Diagnostics hasn't worked for me for a very long time and didn't the last time I tried it, but this time it partially worked, but now displays:

Summary Advanced Test

The Performance Tester is currently unable to run a speed test for your broadband connection. Please try again shortly, however if this problem persists, raise the issue with your service provider.

But the actual speed >>> HERE <<< seems close to what we are getting at the moment, am using the latest version of Firefox for this.

I did a few tries and the speeds remained about the same, the latency flutters about a bit between 3 and 9 ms.

Paul

In reply to a post by jjgraphics:

It's a BT line.

I think that issue and the weird download speed test results I'm getting are definitely bugs!

What browser are you using?

Edge was all over the place, but the latest Firefox worked fine for me.

Paul

Same sort of problem, but slightly different results on Safari and Firefox

In reply to a post by jjgraphics:

Same sort of problem, but slightly different results on Safari and Firefox

Yeah I tried a few browser and stuck with one that gave a close to my speed.

Paul

I prefer BT Wholesale Enhanced Broadband Availability Checker better than normal broadband availability checker because it got extra features but sadly it only for the ISP to logged this! Seem unfair!

Enhanced Broadband Availability Checker give you extra to view:

Bras IP Profile
MTBE data
Retrains data
Open order on the line data
Speed profile data

I don't understand why BTw keep it secret not letting the customer view it as we are paying for our broadband to the ISP! Our line we have the rights to know!

You don't own the line.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

You don't own the line.

I pay the bill so it my line!

It's rented!

Can you legally move the BT master Box? No you can't!

Edited by broadband66 (Thu 16-Jul-20 11:18:00)

You are paying for a service, the conditions for that service do not include you having access to that information - the service the ISP is paying for does include them getting the information. When buying services you agree to the conditions of the service and what is included within it - if you want a higher service level than the standard then you could try and negotiate with the ISP/BT for it - you could also just ask your ISP for the data and see if they are willing to share it.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

I don't understand why BTw keep it secret not letting the customer view it as we are paying for our broadband to the ISP! Our line we have the rights to know!

You're not the customer of BTw or Openreach, you're the customer of the ISP. And the ISP is renting the ability to send signals down the wires of Openreach, and using the backhaul services of BTw, or others. As with Virgin Media (and Sky) when you stop paying, they request the equipment back from your home. It is loaned to use the service.

This is why you cannot touch the Openreach wires before the demarcation point.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

It's rented!

Agreed, you are paying for a service, hence the Line Rental which sort of gives it away.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

Can you legally move the BT master Box? No you can't!

Well long story short several + years ago, a BT Sub Contractor did a bad job with a re-wire resulting in the wires breaking several years later, so I replaced the whole lot (Master Socket NTE5a, BT80 Box from a BT Engineer) brought the correct spec cable and connected it all up.

There was no way we were going to pay for an engineer callout for something that wasn't our fault.

BT wasn't too happy about it, but what was done was done, but they did some tests and was fine with it, they did say we would be charged if at a later date if it caused damages to their infrastructure, I said fine it won't.

It was easier when we moved over to FTTP due to phone is via FVA and not the copper line, so I just terminated the copper line at the BT80 Box and then once again moved the Master Socket to a new more better location where I then connected the cable the BT Fibre Engineer left in place for me ready for when the FVA goes live.

Once again BT was fine with that too.

But yeah you are not really "allowed" to touch it.

Paul

In reply to a post by jchamier:

As with Virgin Media (and Sky) when you stop paying, they request the equipment back from your home. It is loaned to use the service.

BT are doing that now with the Smart Hub 2, which is why mine is still in its box safely on the shelf.

Paul

I changed mine as well. Two wires, not a big deal but legally!!!

As I underatnd it, there are two or three reasons:

Firstly to give BT Technicians an in van supply of reconditioned devices to use as spares

Secondly, part of BTs drive to reduce electronic waste - you can send any old hub/router/modem and power supply plus cables back to them and they will recycle. In recent years BT has always pushed a green/renewable/minimal waste agenda and have recently said they will move to an all electric fleet as soon as possible including company cars.

And third - potentially reduce their expenditure.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

I changed mine as well. Two wires, not a big deal but legally!!!

Agreed, but BT still has a hissy fit, I explain its not that hard to do that and explain my background etc and what I did 20+ years back, sure that still doesn't allow me to do it, but they do seem a little bit more reasonable after knowing that.

But if BT would of told me that they was going to send an engineer out to resolve the issue and that I wouldn't be charged for it, then yeah, I would of let them do it.

But sadly that wasn't the case at the time and plus it was a real simple job, so I did it myself.

Paul

Agreed, I think the third might be one of the main ones which is why they say when you leave us please send the SH2 back or you might / will be charged for it.

Many years ago on most of the old hardware I use to remove the components off the boards to be used later on for projects, I use to send the empty old boards to an old friend of mine when he was alive that use to extract the metals from the board and some old IC's that were bad.
Some places use to take some of the old plastic cases where they would melt them down and recycle the plastic ( I think they ended up at pellets).

Sadly now days most electrical equipment are single chip designs, so not much money ore need to strip the boards, sure I can remove the FPGa and ASIC devices, but the rest are not worth it.

Paul

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

Agreed, I think the third might be one of the main ones which is why they say when you leave us please send the SH2 back or you might / will be charged for it.

That will produce a small revenue stream, the first will save money.

Not sure what they do with consumer but with business you can now say NO on contract renewal - which will say you the delivery charge and it sitting on a shelf..


A lot of electronics goes back to the far east where there are a lot of small back street industries melting down boards and extracting the metals - lead, silver, gold. They make a living from it although the working conditions are abysmal.

Problem with plastics is that a large number of industries demand "virgin plastic" - you can understand for food or medical use, but why is it needed for some car trims for example? Although in some countries such as Norway, plastic drinks bottles are often reused rather than recycled.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

It's rented!

Can you legally move the BT master Box? No you can't!

You can as my mate did move his master socket as Engineer isn't happy about it but his line was working fine and gained extra speed. Openreach are useless job (quite often)

You can as my mate did move his master socket as Engineer isn't happy about it but his line was working fine and gained extra speed. Openreach are useless job (quite often)

So ‘your mate’ did it illegally. No you cannot.

You can take someone’s property, but that’s still theft,

In reply to a post by adslmax:

You can as my mate did move his master socket as Engineer isn't happy about it but his line was working fine and gained extra speed. Openreach are useless job (quite often)

Why don't you tell them that to their face ...

I can assure you that Openreach staff are possibly some of the best engineering people in this country and are often asked to chair international committees in the aspects of telecommunications and data services. And I have met a lot more OR staff than you ever will.

Well I met a few (20 odd young BT Trainee Engineers) 20+ years ago where I was working at the time and while some were full of themselves (who isn't at that age) they were all nice people to chat and have a laugh with.

Its the same when I use to chat to a few when I see them working at our hardware, also the ones that chat via Twitter which I still chat to now and then, they have all always been nice and polite.

So I cannot say any bad word against them.

Paul

It might be a bit off topic, but I just have to chime in about BT/Openreach engineers.
Yes, about 20 years ago (maybe more) we had a workshop on the edge of an industrial park. One night, about midnight, the bad guys came along to break in. At that time the word on the street was that if you tore out the phone lines, the burglar alarms could not signal back to base. Anyway, we had BT Redcare which sent a signal down the wire constantly, but got interrupted when the line went down.
So of course, the alarm went off, the police got called automatically, and me too.
It was a mess, phone lines torn down everywhere. Of course it was cold and the rain was pouring down, but we had to get the alarm line working again, who knew if the bad guys were watching.
We had whatever level of care it was, so phoned BT and an engineer came out and fixed it.

The point of the story is - it was cold, wet, out in the middle of trees just the engineer and me, 2 o'clock in the morning. And the real point is that this engineer, in his fifties, that was his first shift back after a heart attack.
I still have a good admiration for these guys.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

I prefer BT Wholesale Enhanced Broadband Availability Checker better than normal broadband availability checker because it got extra features but sadly it only for the ISP to logged this! Seem unfair!

Enhanced Broadband Availability Checker give you extra to view:

Bras IP Profile
MTBE data
Retrains data
Open order on the line data
Speed profile data

I don't understand why BTw keep it secret not letting the customer view it as we are paying for our broadband to the ISP! Our line we have the rights to know!

What possible benefit could there be to either BT Wholesale or your ISP in exposing this information to you?

You'd constantly be looking at it and raising support tickets to your ISP when there's nothing actually wrong with your service, and you wouldn't be the only one.

It's a genuine question on the benefits. How would exposing that information help anyone, with the possible exception of the open order data?

Yes you can physically move your Master Socket but it isn't legal.

You can physically break the law by speeding in a car but is it legal? No.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

‘your mate’ did it illegally. No you cannot.

Not sure I would have chosen the word illegal to describe the action of someone other than an Openreach engineer or contractor moving a master telephone line socket.

Edited by deleted (Fri 17-Jul-20 22:23:25)