Gov plans to cut Huawei from 5G networks...

Apparently.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/23/bojo_buckle...

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/may/22/b...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/05/22/bori...


Interesting that the UK now responds to pressure from one source or another, rather than make its own way in the world.

Waiting on Government to actually say something substantive on the topic

Good job there's not a similar dependency in the country's broadband network!

About time too. Regardless of other arguments surely the past few months have shown the dangers of farming out so much of our manufacturing capability.

In reply to a post by Malwaremike:

About time too. Regardless of other arguments surely the past few months have shown the dangers of farming out so much of our manufacturing capability.

Interesting comment; the only other companies making this incredibly advanced technology are European, Ericsson and Nokia. They're not UK or USA companies.

In reply to a post by Malwaremike:

About time too. Regardless of other arguments surely the past few months have shown the dangers of farming out so much of our manufacturing capability.

bigger problem is that if we farm it out because we can't make it!

In reply to a post by steve195527:

In reply to a post by Malwaremike:

About time too. Regardless of other arguments surely the past few months have shown the dangers of farming out so much of our manufacturing capability.

bigger problem is that if we farm it out because we can't make it!

It's that we won't, not that we can't. Companies want to maximise shareholder value, and not value to society. People want to buy the cheapest, no matter if it's inferior as they don't understand technology and would rather have cheap [censored], rather than risk getting expensive [censored].

As a society it's about time we seriously consider our economic model, we cannot live on a services industry forever. We need to ensure this is done now else it won't end well for us.

In reply to a post by gary333:

As a society it's about time we seriously consider our economic model, we cannot live on a services industry forever. We need to ensure this is done now else it won't end well for us.

Not going to happen until 2024 at the earliest.

Don't forget scrapping the Fixed Terms Parliament Act was in the 2019 Conservative manifesto. (Page 48, PDF P50). They might need to do that to be able to juggle as for a long historical time, or keep it to stay in office!

In reply to a post by gary333:

In reply to a post by steve195527:

In reply to a post by Malwaremike:

About time too. Regardless of other arguments surely the past few months have shown the dangers of farming out so much of our manufacturing capability.

bigger problem is that if we farm it out because we can't make it!

It's that we won't, not that we can't. Companies want to maximise shareholder value, and not value to society. People want to buy the cheapest, no matter if it's inferior as they don't understand technology and would rather have cheap [censored], rather than risk getting expensive [censored].

As a society it's about time we seriously consider our economic model, we cannot live on a services industry forever. We need to ensure this is done now else it won't end well for us.

I doubt we have the ability to make the 5g stuff the chinese make,we've had no reason to develop it as it was going to be bought in,what would we do backward engineer the Huawei stuff?

In reply to a post by steve195527:

In reply to a post by gary333:

In reply to a post by steve195527:

... nested quotes trimmed ...

bigger problem is that if we farm it out because we can't make it!

It's that we won't, not that we can't. Companies want to maximise shareholder value, and not value to society. People want to buy the cheapest, no matter if it's inferior as they don't understand technology and would rather have cheap [censored], rather than risk getting expensive [censored].

As a society it's about time we seriously consider our economic model, we cannot live on a services industry forever. We need to ensure this is done now else it won't end well for us.

I doubt we have the ability to make the 5g stuff the chinese make,we've had no reason to develop it as it was going to be bought in,what would we do backward engineer the Huawei stuff?

My point was regarding our services led economy, not about 5G eqipment specifically. 5G is a drop in the ocean. We need more primary and secondary industry here in the UK. Invest in the North would be a start giving incentives to business to locate and/or expand. Although, the main issue that always thwarts this is the requirement for a long term view as it'll take 20 years to get the supporting education talent and robust supply chain to entrench these industries. Hopefully this virus has shown people we need to improve our ability to be relatively self sufficient.

How long will the infamous "Five Eyes" last?

It's been going since during WWII and are we going to jeopardise it now?

It's a shame, it's a force that is hard to beat, even the Chinese find it more than difficult, to the point of almost giving up.

The whole point of FVEY, is to beat threats like Huawei.
If it crumbles now, just because we can't find a solution to buying Huawei kit, that would be beyond sad.
It would also open those countries who let Huawei in, to being forced out and having their National Security rating plummet and to being expelled from FVEY.
ONLY the US so far has made a solid stand against Huawei.

We used to lead the bunch in FVEY, arguably now the US do, let's not drop any further!

In reply to a post by gary333:

In reply to a post by steve195527:

In reply to a post by gary333:

... nested quotes trimmed ...

It's that we won't, not that we can't. Companies want to maximise shareholder value, and not value to society. People want to buy the cheapest, no matter if it's inferior as they don't understand technology and would rather have cheap [censored], rather than risk getting expensive [censored].

As a society it's about time we seriously consider our economic model, we cannot live on a services industry forever. We need to ensure this is done now else it won't end well for us.

I doubt we have the ability to make the 5g stuff the chinese make,we've had no reason to develop it as it was going to be bought in,what would we do backward engineer the Huawei stuff?

My point was regarding our services led economy, not about 5G eqipment specifically. 5G is a drop in the ocean. We need more primary and secondary industry here in the UK. Invest in the North would be a start giving incentives to business to locate and/or expand. Although, the main issue that always thwarts this is the requirement for a long term view as it'll take 20 years to get the supporting education talent and robust supply chain to entrench these industries. Hopefully this virus has shown people we need to improve our ability to be relatively self sufficient.

Mrs thatcher made it her goal for the UK to be an economy based on finance not manufacturing,it's odd that the most successful economies seem to be more on the manufacturing side,if your one of the few economies making what the world wants or needs the world has no choice(or little choice) in who they buy from.
Re the 5g stuff,if a US company made the equipment would you trust them not to spy on us with some embeded spyware?After all google,apple,amazon aren't noted for not doing that

Edited by steve195527 (Tue 26-May-20 12:13:15)

In reply to a post by TrevorSP:

How long will the infamous "Five Eyes" last?

It's been going since during WWII and are we going to jeopardise it now?

It's a shame, it's a force that is hard to beat, even the Chinese find it more than difficult, to the point of almost giving up.

The whole point of FVEY, is to beat threats like Huawei.
If it crumbles now, just because we can't find a solution to buying Huawei kit, that would be beyond sad.
It would also open those countries who let Huawei in, to being forced out and having their National Security rating plummet and to being expelled from FVEY.
ONLY the US so far has made a solid stand against Huawei.

We used to lead the bunch in FVEY, arguably now the US do, let's not drop any further!

the US stand is probably more to do with trumps trade war than any intelligence threat

Gary

Huawei's kit is the cheapest but also the best ! They also have several manufacturing ( assembly) sites in the UK. ( ETL and Nokia kit are packed full of Chinese components as well) I was always impressed by how it worked out of the box for the first time unlike many EU/US products and was interoperable with other kit using the same standards. Often EU/US kit didn't conform to the standard so wouldn't interoperate with other manufacturers kit

That's sooo true, personally, I have a Huawei phone for personal use, their welcome to pictures of my old dog and me if they want them LOL
But as for the phone, it's great, it just updates and works

I'm not in a position to know how "troublesome" this equipment could be or may not be, but clearly there are those in positions to look into this that do.

Personally I wish we had our own companies at the forefront, with high tech manufacturing on our soil too - but sadly that's not the case. Equally though, whichever side of the debate you stand, their should be scrutiny imo when foreign equipment is running at the core of our infrastruture.

Serious question but whats the difference between 5G being Huawei and thousands of BT street cabinets and thousands of modems and routers currently being used, made by Huawei, today.

In reply to a post by wolvesmad:

Serious question but whats the difference between 5G being Huawei and thousands of BT street cabinets and thousands of modems and routers currently being used, made by Huawei, today.

Well I assume by it's nature the first thing that comes to my mind, is the "portability" of mobile signals and the way we can practically all be "monitored" on our personal whereabouts and more -as opposed to that of fixed broadband.

I'm being cynical, but I think the UK Gov (and the US Gov via GCHQ signals sharing) feel only they are allowed to monitor UK comms.

Heh !

Surely if anyone does, the UK government is the least worst option?

That depends. The UK Gov is in a position to act on its own. The Chinese...

If you have five or ten minutes to spare I suggest everyone interested in the Huawei debate should have a quick read of the
HUAWEI CYBER SECURITY EVALUATION CENTRE (HCSEC) OVERSIGHT BOARD report:- a little old but shows what the position is and probably remains at the moment as far as they are concerned, Huawei is just not cooperating with HCSEC one bit.
They keep asking and asking for bits of information and the Chinese either "ignore" or "divert" their responses.

If they are going to be so stubborn about basics like this, how do we know the binary in the chips is what they say it is, if it can't be tested, it can't be verified.
As one part of the report says, we need details, not ideas and vague plans for the future!

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/...

Am I the only one who is somewhat concerned that this is an annual report and this year's edition should have been published by now?

The 2019 report was published on 28 March 2019 so you could well be right. On the other hand, as we all know, the situation wrt that is rather complex this year.

I haven't read the 2019 one so don't know what depth it goes into. In particular the political considerations, which are radically different from almost any previous year.

Edit: Typo "An >> On".

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 30-May-20 18:10:57)

In reply to a post by caffn8me:

Am I the only one who is somewhat concerned that this is an annual report and this year's edition should have been published by now?

Suspect they are holding off finalising and publishing it

Based on what you say about Huawei not cooperating with the HCSEC it doesn't sound like the type of company I would want to be dealing with although for what people say their products do seem to perform well on the surface and are normally cheaper than others in the same field.

In reply to a post by dect:

... although for what people say their products do seem to perform well on the surface and are normally cheaper than others in the same field.

That cheapness can be looked at in two ways however.

There is the good way, such as Alan Sugar and his knocking down of twin-floppy PC compatible microcomputers from the industry norm of around £3,000 at the time to just under £1,000. Forcing the industry to stop ripping us off.

Then there is the bad way of grabbing market share by unsustainably low pricing in order to kill the competition.

If the latter is taking place in a security-critical industry it is right to ring alarm bells. LOUDLY.

It's bad for buyers at all times. Given the international power and influence push by China over many years, which the UK under all parties doesn't seem to have resisted; arguably perhaps co-operated with; and Trump's utterly crack-handed approach to all international trade and diplomacy, I do wonder about Huawei.

Even if its founder/owner is genuine in his belief that his company is never going to be an espionage (or worse) enabler, in that country and Huawei he is 100% replaceable in an instant.

Edit: Typo fix.

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 30-May-20 10:36:31)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Then there is the bad way of grabbing market share by unsustainably low pricing in order to kill the competition.

I always think of Freddie Laker when this happens

I know, it should have been out ages ago.

Obviously you have had a look for it too, Sarah.
I have looked far and wide for it and there is no mention of it!

Maybe it is still classified? Or more likely, it is has been classified as "Politically Sensitive".
A genuine classification.

Edited by TrevorSP (Sat 30-May-20 16:09:57)

Yes, I've done a thorough search and I can't imagine it's good. The 2019 report makes very grim reading - particulalry for Huawei executives.

Edited by caffn8me (Sat 30-May-20 18:55:53)

I think a lot of people forget the sheer size of the Chinese domestic economy, let alone the international one. One reason their cities have modernised like no tomorrow. Huawei won't be disappearing any day soon.

And yes, we can ban their stuff much like they can ours. One reason companies like Boeing will be worried. One second China was up an coming as a major customer for their aircraft and then, well, Trump put the boot in. Just means they'll look at Airbus instead. Too many people look at the West as if it is the be all and end all of the world. Having lived in Asia, I can tell you the dynamics out there far exceed what is happening in the West. You have to forget low paid peasants working in fields and start looking at the real China. One reason China's economy will overtake the USA. Just the sheer number of people that can be working on projects.

As for security, are you really trying to tell me we don't have people that can read code and look at circuits? God help us if it is so. I hadn't realised how dysfunctional our schools /companies had become.

In reply to a post by 69bertie:

As for security, are you really trying to tell me we don't have people that can read code and look at circuits? God help us if it is so. I hadn't realised how dysfunctional our schools /companies had become.

We certainly have people who can read code - which would be abundantly clear to you if you'd read the report being discussed. I suggest you do, it's fascinating reading.

As Sarah says, it would probably have been better to post that comment after you had read the report that I posted...

If you do read it, you will see how your post really doesn't do you any favours

Have a look, it is incredibly good and describes exactly the problems that Huewii are causing with the intent purpose to stop us checking their kit!

Edited by TrevorSP (Mon 01-Jun-20 15:16:23)

I bet their propaganda PR is a lot better written than their code;

Huawei launches media blitz as UK weighs its role in 5G networks

Huawei's UK and European lead PR agency is London based Red Consultancy but I don't know whether this current campaign is one of theirs.

Perhaps the answer to the problem is to have all code for UK deployed prodcts written in the UK, fully vetted for security and with stringent validation to ensure that only UK originated code is installed.

Not sure whether this is good or bad, however, FVEYs are going to collaborate of making the design for 5g themselves and then farming it out for manufacture to FVEY countries.

Just in case you didn't know, Five Eyes countries are:
UK
US
Canada
Australia
New Zealand

So several years time before services arrive.

I am hoping not if you think of the calibre of R&D at Cheltenham alone, then you include all various other locations throughout the country, their contractors, and then times all that five!

If they are really serious about this, and their R&D is given enough money, I don't see it being delayed by much at all.

My concern was a bit tongue in cheek, in as much as those who may, with a warrant, listen to us, are now going to be making the kit we use!

Developing the hardware should be possible in a shortish timescale, but the firmware and software are another question. Especially if Huwaei are, as we are told, the best currently available. (And smallest? Maybe I misread something). Also the cheapest, the reason for which is in itself not unquestionable.

Of course, there's no way we would reverse engineer anything of theirs …. 🎸.

Following that there is the manufacturing side of things to set up across the five nations, and the sheer physical replacement of existing core and mast Huawei equipment. Is BT Group to pay for the UK end of that? Also the interfacing of new stuff with the legacy kit during the replacement period. (Bear in mind we can't, after over a decade, get GP surgeries and core NHS systems linking properly, never mind seamlessly integrating).

Complications also to be considered at government level are the possible reactions of Huawei itself wrt that kit and any updates needed whilst it is still in use, and the threat to the troubled in-build Hinckley Point C nuclear power station and the to be mainly Chinese built one to be erected in Bradwell.

You bring up some stirling points Bob,

I understand the NHS Non-Connected systems in as much as I have a good inkling why they don't work!
Senior and Mid Managers, not talking to each other, and different Health Authorities taking up different options from different companies for their "own reasons" and the fact that despite promises made at the time, it is not as easy as they were led to believe, by the "Salesforce", for the different systems to speak to each other!

I am in the PCG (voluntary) and a PPG member for the Hospital, Minor Injuries Unit, GP Surgery, Dentists, Pharmacy and all other ancillary departments here where I live in Essex.
GP surgeries and hospitals have been forced to use particular systems and related software, three times in the 15 or so years at their own costs. This involves different hardware from different companies along with different software on each of the 3 occasions they have been forced to change their equipment.
It is only in the last few months since CV19, that the Hospital is able to "talk to" and send clinical data to and from the GP Surgery FOR THE FIRST TIME!
However, STILL, as of last month, my Nephrologist in the Hospital is unable to see the results of my weekly blood tests taken by the local surgery, so he orders his own sets of bloods, much the chagrin of my arms!

Pharmacies are equally as bemused, however, the E-Prescription system seems to be working relatively well and has been for some 12 years now, albeit ONLY from Dr's surgeries to the pharmacy, hospitals usually have their own dispensary for in-house PAPER prescriptions and they certainly can't be sent to the local pharmacy!

Dentistry is firmly in the private sector when it comes to hardware and software, the only caveat being that it must talk to the BDA otherwise Dentists won't be paid by the Government for NHS work! These systems are ridiculously expensive, and all carry a compulsory "Service Warranty", paid yearly whether needed or not.

With regards to the Nuclear problem with building nuclear power stations with China in the UK, it is way more complicated, it also includes HS2 according to The Sunday Telegraph. China is ready and threatening to pull out of both if Boris carries on with his FVEY plan and cuts out Huawei from the UK.

With regards to GCHQ, NSA and the rest of FVEY replacing Huweui I have no doubts that they will accomplish this in short order, farming out manufacture to trusted companies thirsty for Government Contracts.

I would also expect GCHQ, et al, to seamlessly take over updates and maintenance!
Since they already know the systems inside out and back to front, hence the "problems" in the first place.
This is nothing new and has been brewing for some time, why "those in the know" didn't ACT on the warnings several years ago is beyond me and only The Government, GCHQ and BT Senior Management could explain to the likes of us.

Personally I highly suspect, the price point of the kit, misplaced trust in China, and the expected dividends from future BT share prices etc.

As for security, are you really trying to tell me we don't have people that can read code and look at circuits? God help us if it is so. I hadn't realised how dysfunctional our schools /companies had become.

We are able and do.........
However, you will just have to trust me on this one!

Perhaps the answer to the problem is to have all code for UK deployed prodcts written in the UK, fully vetted for security and with stringent validation to ensure that only UK originated code is installed.

I have a feeling this is the answer, with FVEY taking the lead.
I am sure they are already looking at this, else Boris wouldn't be even contemplating the stand he might take, I just wish he would make his mind up and make a flipping decision!

In reply to a post by TrevorSP:

… else Boris wouldn't be even contemplating the stand he might take, I just wish he would make his mind up and make a flipping decision!

The trouble with his decision-making was it was mostly made on the hoof, but his experience of contracting Covid-19 has badly damaged his hooves.

They seem to be slowly growing back, but he is still far from being able to gallop.

Edit: Plus he didn't/doesn't always make decisions on the right ones!

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 12-Jun-20 15:32:56)

GCHQ, The Civil Service, The Police, et al, are all supposed to be NON-PARTISAN.

However, we know that whilst the Civil Service and the Police are supposed to do things the Government asks them to do, they are also supposed to "advise", "Strongly Advise" and eventually "Fight Back" against "wrong decisions" in the PUBLIC INTEREST.

They do so when it comes to their "Terms of Service and recompense"!
They should be just as passionate about the Departments they are supposed to be managing for the good of the country!

Perhaps those top Civil Servants who fully understand what GCHQ and FVEY have been warning about for years, should be more worried about the facts, rather than "upsetting the apple-cart" and not get their knighthood, which they expect on retirement!

This is one of the main problems with the Civil Service, which I have been periodically involved in particular parts of my life and career.

If you thought "Yes Minister" was a joke, well, I am afraid on occasion, I have seen exactly that! Here and abroad at several British Embassies or High Commissions.

I bring to your attention the particular episode where "Jim" is at a reception in an Alcohol-Free country and the British delegation all keep having to go to the "Communications Room" to receive or send "Very Urgent" Messages, in truth, to top their drinks up with alcohol.
A light-hearted look at true events.

The top Civil Service, (excluding GCHQ and National Security Departments), worry about their pay, work conditions, their defined and protected career path with a healthy golden handshake and a knighthood on retirement!
They sit in their grand offices, with no one to check up on their work, no idea of what's happening outside of their "bubble" and are so blinkered you wouldn't believe it!

Edit for typos and clarification of the last paragraph.

Edited by TrevorSP (Fri 12-Jun-20 18:14:30)