End of Copper Openreach Network

At the present time we have 70mb FTTC broadband + telephone fed by an overhead cable from a combined telephone / electricity pole which is connected via overhead cables back to a green roadside fibre cabinet over a distance of approximately 100m.

The existing telephone/broadband copper enters the house in a very inaccessible part of the attic with no power point and connects to a 1m away VDSL equipped master socket. The existing modem router is located a very awkward cable run from the VDSL equipped master socket

When Openreach shuts the copper network what changes will it force upon us - new equipment, wiring etc?

Will Openreach need to install a modem? If so the existing master socket location would be very difficult and there is no power supply.

Is there anything that we need to consider if buying new telephone/ computer / network equipment now that we hope to still be using after the copper shutdown?

OpenReach at present are not shutting down the copper network. They will move voice to digital but that will use a broadband line and can be on ADSL, FTTC or FTTP.

If OpenReach bring fibre to your area and offer it to you then it will be a matter of running the fibre into your house and connecting it to a modem they supply (this could change in future but if it does then other options will be available). As long as the route isn't too complicated the fibre point can go anywhere - it has no requirement to be anywhere near the current master socket.

At that point it connects to a router exactly as it does now. There is nothing in your house you need to change for any of the current services - the presentation from the router will be exactly the same as it is now.

To take full advantage of fibre you may choose to upgrade wifi setups (access points or end user equipment) or faster network cards if you have very old devices. But you don't have to do any of this if you are happy that some devices might not be able to max out the line.

With digital voice there is the change that you have to unplug the cable from the phone socket and plug it into the back of the router (I did it this morning, took about 30 seconds). If your router isn't where you want the phone then BT do have products on offer to resolve this. The big change is that if there is a power cut then the phone line will be cut unless you have a UPS - but if you use a cordless handset then this would already be an issue anyway.

So, in summary they aren't turning off copper nationally any time soon. If you do get the option of FTTP in future then generally it has very little impact on your setup apart from the potential for a faster and more stable connection.

My incoming line was much the same - an inaccessible corner of the loft, although there is power there. I ran in some 20mm conduit from point of entry to exactly where I wanted the fibre termination.

The current single port ONTs are, I believe, PoE although they are supplied with a 12v PSU, what will happen in future? No idea, but PoE may be your way out.


AS for what to consider when updating your network ... Gbit compatible throughout. You may want your own router - so go for one which has the capability to create a PPPoE session. That will remove the ISP interface - unless you will be happy with that.


If you are buying a new phone - look at a VoIP ATA or combined VoIP/Analog DECT system

In reply to a post by chris52:

The existing telephone/broadband copper enters the house in a very inaccessible part of the attic with no power point and connects to a 1m away VDSL equipped master socket. The existing modem router is located a very awkward cable run from the VDSL equipped master socket

When Openreach shuts the copper network what changes will it force upon us - new equipment, wiring etc?

As mentioned the copper network isn't disappearing overnight 2025 is mentioned but might move.

As for FTTP being installed, the vast majority of the fibre where I live is installed overhead via poles. We have had a couple of farms that had FTTP installed. One, the contractors dug a trench about 200 metres long with a small digger from the road to the farmhouse. Didn't take them long at all. Given how far they were from the existing FTTC cabinet, their speeds must have rocketed.

And there is nothing to say some other company might do the install of FTTP. In our very rural hamlet, we went from an OR only network to a local ISP coming along doing the FTTP install. Took them, using their own contractors, 3 weeks from the initial fibre pull in to people going live. They supplied the necessary kit to get connected i.e. all in one router (OR do things slightly differently from what I've read). Anything internal would be yours to sort.

But I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Might be years yet. Unless, of course, you've been notified of change.

Thank you the that explanation. A little clarification please. Are digital phone lines linked to FTTP provision or is it independent of it?

When Openreach bring us digital telephone what goes between the telegraph pole in the road and the modem? Is it one continuous cable (copper or optical) or are there connectors and does the existing master socket remain?

I am assuming that the internal telephones would connect back to the modem rather than the existing master socket.

The ‘voice’ bit of the circuit will be coming from a telephone Jack on the back of the CP router

As mentioned the copper network isn't disappearing overnight 2025 is mentioned but might move.

It is voice services from exchange based equipment (PSTN) that is going in 2025

If punters still want ‘a landline’ it will be provided via VOIP or similar .

How customers get their data will change more slowly as the various options roll out. People still getting service over a copper pair from a street cabinet will be around for a while longer yet

Thank you everyone for the information.

As mentioned the copper network isn't disappearing overnight 2025 is mentioned but might move.

Nobody mentioned that. The standard telephone socket will be moved over to a delivery via the broadband line, the broadband line itself may still be copper. BT have as far as I know made no announcement of a date when they plan to have got rid of copper, I am pretty certain it isn't 2025 as they will need full FTTP (or alternative) coverage before they can stop copper.

In reply to a post by chris52:

Thank you the that explanation. A little clarification please. Are digital phone lines linked to FTTP provision or is it independent of it?

When Openreach bring us digital telephone what goes between the telegraph pole in the road and the modem? Is it one continuous cable (copper or optical) or are there connectors and does the existing master socket remain?

I am assuming that the internal telephones would connect back to the modem rather than the existing master socket.

I think this has already pretty much been answered but as it was a reply to my post...

The digital voice is delivered over an Internet connection. As I said that could be ADSL, VDSL, FTTP or to be honest anything else. Essentially all BT need is an Internet connection - as long as they can put their router on the end of it they can deliver it over even relatively low capacity Internet links and possibly will do if people don't have an Internet connection at their premises.

As I said before my phone is now connected direct to a phone socket on the back of the modem - switched over this morning. All seems fine.

In reply to a post by ian72:

Nobody mentioned that. The standard telephone socket will be moved over to a delivery via the broadband line, the broadband line itself may still be copper. BT have as far as I know made no announcement of a date when they plan to have got rid of copper, I am pretty certain it isn't 2025 as they will need full FTTP (or alternative) coverage before they can stop copper.

I believe the OP did in his opening post and the title of this very thread 😎

There’s obviously quite a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about what these changes mean and how they will be manifest.

A decent “switchover” campaign might serve to reassure folk of what to expect and when. The general media are only good for sensational headlines.

"At that point it connects to a router exactly as it does now. There is nothing in your house you need to change for any of the current services - the presentation from the router will be exactly the same as it is now."

What happens if one currently has no internet connection and doesn't want one in the future? Things would have to change.

The OP has FTTC. So "there is nothing in your house you need to change" is correct. If someone doesn't have it then BT will deliver some sort of router to them for a basic broadband service - not sure what they are doing to provide that in the trials but was not relevant to the OPs specific question.

EDIT : Although I guess I didn't mention that the BT Digital Voice requires BT Smart Hub 2 hardware so that could be a change depending on the current router. Other ISPs may do it different ways. We don't know how all the other ISPs will deliver digital voice (or if they even will) to end customers for the PSTN switch off.

Edited by ian72 (Fri 28-May-21 16:04:45)

What happens if one currently has no internet connection and doesn't want one in the future? Things would have to change.

I believe a slow speed (64kbits) connection could be provided over whatever network is available (exchange based / cabinet based or FTTP) just for a voice service ( no internet connectivity)

The line would no longer have dial tone (as no more PSTN) but would be connected to a box of some description (probably a small router with voice port).

The users phone would then plug into the box. Similar to a standard broadband connection a local power supply would be needed for the box. An underlying data service would be used to transport the digital voice (voice over IP) back to the comms provider. Numbers etc would remain the same.

In reply to a post by witchunt:

What happens if one currently has no internet connection and doesn't want one in the future? Things would have to change.

I believe a slow speed (64kbits) connection could be provided over whatever network is available (exchange based / cabinet based or FTTP) just for a voice service ( no internet connectivity)

Until you get to the extreme length lines up at 10km or more. There are quite a few of those especially up in the Scottish Highlands.

Early days yet. Trials are still ongoing and they will ‘discover’ loads of edge cases and probably thousands of other orphaned connections that may have interesting twists in the tail (pardon the pun)!

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Early days yet. Trials are still ongoing and they will ‘discover’ loads of edge cases and probably thousands of other orphaned connections that may have interesting twists in the tail (pardon the pun)!

Or potentially, no twists, just plain figure 8.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

What happens if one currently has no internet connection and doesn't want one in the future? Things would have to change.

I believe you get one of these.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

In reply to a post by broadband66:

What happens if one currently has no internet connection and doesn't want one in the future? Things would have to change.

I believe you get one of these.

Still not quite clear (to me at least) how this will work at the exchange…specifically the bit quoted below taken from the SOTAP blurb about the ‘engineering work’ for voice only WLR lines.

“There’ll be no engineering needed if LLU shared metallic path facility (SMPF) is already on the line – because it reuses the current LLU SMPF exchange equipment. We can still install it if there isn’t any LLU SMPF on the line (i.e. voice-only WLR lines) – we’ll just need to do some engineering work first.”

Edited by Pheasant (Sat 29-May-21 08:17:20)

Speaking as the confused OP I don't think that Openreach have handled this very well. They make announcements without providing much back up and which leave many questions unanswered. I was very confused.

I have one question left.

When they make telephone calls digital I understand that it will either:
a) remove the need for the existing master socket and presumable its associated connectors or
b) the telephone calls will simply join the existing VDSL feed from my existing master socket to a new modem situated where my modem router is presently located.

At the moment my VDSL equipped master socket is where the cable enters the house and is connected to my modem router by a very carefully routed, but long and not easily accessible, cable. To get at it involves crawling around in 2 very tight unboarded loft spaces.

The answers above suggest no internal house changes but if the master socket is to go then there will surely need to be some or I will have 2 unconnected cables. My concern is obviously for the long master socket to modem cable. I do not want to have the modem where the master socket is currently situated and that would anyway involve a new long network cable to the router.

I am planning for this now as at my age things can deteriorate change quickly

As others have said the digital voice service will come from a socket on the back on your ISP supplied router, if you want the telephone in a different place than where the router is you will need to arrange to have an additional cable put in from the router to the desired location as the router socket will become the demarcation point for the digital voice service.

If the master socket where the cable enters the house is a BT/Openreach NTE socket then I believe that will remain the demarcation point for the VDSL service so will not be removed.

It is very unlikely that Openreach will provide the ONT into your loft.

They will provide to the inside of an external wall, which has a power supply nearby.

If you want your router in some remote part of the house, I’d suggest you get an Ethernet cable to feed to that. Then it can go where you wish it to be, and be routed as you see fit.

ian72

This is not quite correct. There is an (ever growing) list of 220 exchanges where OR will no longer provide Copper service by April 2022 and any service change will be provided over FTTP. The copper will be removed from each premises as the FTTP is provided.

This applies to anyone who's signing up to a new contract, whether you're switching, upgrading or re-grading. If you're out of contract and already on a copper product, you may be able to continue your existing copper-based services in special circumstances - speak to your communications provider if you're not sure.

The list is available from https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/retiring-t...

However 'at present' there is no proactive change from copper to fibre.

It's unlikely that those 220 exchanges will have 100% FTTP coverage, though, unfortunately. I've seen business premises skipped in Salisbury because the freeholder of the building wanted unreasonable terms for the wayleave, so Openreach just left them off the rollout.

There's two things being discussed here, Openreach moving areas to FTTP so they can retire the copper access network which includes ADSL, FTTC and G.Fast, and PSTN switch-off which is the 2025 date that has been floated.

PSTN switch-off (Openreach withdrawing WLR and getting out of handling phone calls, hence FVA being retired as well) has been made more confusing than it needs to be, there's been a bit of scaremongering to SMB customers from companies wanting to pick up VoIP sales, and consumers have got the impression that it means they are going to get FTTP in a few years time.

It is not unusual for a domestic subscriber to have more than one telephone line where the 'other' line might be used for an alarm/fax/lift each from a separate master socket. What are the proposals in terms of hardware for these situations?

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Still not quite clear (to me at least) how this will work at the exchange…specifically the bit quoted below taken from the SOTAP blurb about the ‘engineering work’ for voice only WLR lines.

“There’ll be no engineering needed if LLU shared metallic path facility (SMPF) is already on the line – because it reuses the current LLU SMPF exchange equipment. We can still install it if there isn’t any LLU SMPF on the line (i.e. voice-only WLR lines) – we’ll just need to do some engineering work first.”

The voice-only WLR lines will need to be connected to an MSAN or DSLAM or maybe just a modem rack at the exchange in order to get a digital connection for Digital Voice.

"There is nothing in your house you need to change for any of the current services."

'For any of the current services' was the bit that I noted.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

It is not unusual for a domestic subscriber to have more than one telephone line where the 'other' line might be used for an alarm/fax/lift each from a separate master socket. What are the proposals in terms of hardware for these situations?

The current BT Redcare portfolio is now cellular, IP (ethernet) or dual path - no PSTN option. Lift phones are moving over to cellular as well.

The writing has sort of been on the wall for a while and normal churn of equipment that takes place over the lifetime of a maintenance contract should solve a lot of this, the long tail of problems will be things like residential monitoring.

In reply to a post by jpm:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

It is not unusual for a domestic subscriber to have more than one telephone line where the 'other' line might be used for an alarm/fax/lift each from a separate master socket. What are the proposals in terms of hardware for these situations?

The current BT Redcare portfolio is now cellular, IP (ethernet) or dual path - no PSTN option. Lift phones are moving over to cellular as well.

The writing has sort of been on the wall for a while and normal churn of equipment that takes place over the lifetime of a maintenance contract should solve a lot of this, the long tail of problems will be things like residential monitoring.

And if you are in a mobile no spot?

Don't forget that in the medium term the Subject is known to be not really relevant. The question is more about withdrawal of PSTN by 2025. The copper will remain in place and will provide a digital phone service. Digital Voice has been discussed. Lifts, alarms and the like would presumably be handled in the same way.

Another poster has said that in some places FTTP may be installed earlier than previously planned and the copper removed. Whether correct or not, that makes no difference.

IMO the cost to recover the copper would be exorbitant and I cant see OR or BT wanting to recover it. Simply not cost effective.

Copper recovery was discussed a while back, and basically all agreed with what you say. Certainly doing it piecemeal would be daft, requiring long-term storage.

In a while, doing it in bulk as staff numbers are inevitably reduced might just about make sense. Or letting a subcontractor do the last mile to home and business premises then, and taking a cut of their profit.

Exchange to near user-premises probably worthwhile and safer to do inhouse. Considering the umpteen miles of underground bulk cables.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Still not quite clear (to me at least) how this will work at the exchange…specifically the bit quoted below taken from the SOTAP blurb about the ‘engineering work’ for voice only WLR lines.

“There’ll be no engineering needed if LLU shared metallic path facility (SMPF) is already on the line – because it reuses the current LLU SMPF exchange equipment. We can still install it if there isn’t any LLU SMPF on the line (i.e. voice-only WLR lines) – we’ll just need to do some engineering work first.”

The voice-only WLR lines will need to be connected to an MSAN or DSLAM or maybe just a modem rack at the exchange in order to get a digital connection for Digital Voice.

That would make sense, ultimately the copper has to carry a basic data connection in lieu of dial tone.

Extra long rural lines could pose a challenge with data connectivity. MHC has mentioned the Scottish Highlands, but there are plenty of other places like the Lincolnshire Wolds with challenging geography that could be rather expensive to change if other delivery means like 4G aren’t feasible.

In reply to a post by pluralist:

Copper recovery was discussed a while back, and basically all agreed with what you say. Certainly doing it piecemeal would be daft, requiring long-term storage.

In a while, doing it in bulk as staff numbers are inevitably reduced might just about make sense. Or letting a subcontractor do the last mile to home and business premises then, and taking a cut of their profit.

Exchange to near user-premises probably worthwhile and safer to do inhouse. Considering the umpteen miles of underground bulk cables.

Is that you RobertoS?

Is that you RobertoS?

Much discussion on the subject in the nether regions of the forum (where I believe you don’t post.

https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/park/t/4684967-dit...

Two new usernames in as many days … a ‘mid-posting crisis’ possibly ?

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Is that you RobertoS?

Yes .
But the fact I say so using the new nick rather than the old one does not, of itself, prove it true. However the cease of posting on the old one is evidential.

OK

Fair enough. Only post there from time to time.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Fair enough. Only post there from time to time.

I avoid that place, and find it strange its impact spills out to the rest of the site.

Recovering the drop wire for Overhead when providing FTT is simple and the quantities bulk up when you will be doing the numbers OR will be. So storage is not an issue, Recycling is messy due to the insulation but already happens.

Exchange to Cab recovery is likely to cost in due at high points of the scrap cycle and has the advantage of freeing duct space. But only when whole cabs ( or large cables) are offloaded completely.

Next high point is likely to be as we exit the pandemic, Look at steel, cement and wood price rises going on now, copper will be about 6 months behind. However this will be too soon for most areas. So more likely 5-7 years time as the demand for Electric Cars peaks and boilers need changing out to heat pumps.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Fair enough. Only post there from time to time.

I avoid that place, and find it strange its impact spills out to the rest of the site.

+1

In reply to a post by kitcat:

boilers need changing out to heat pumps.

I keep hearing people talking about heat pumps (be it air or ground source) replacing boilers but the important thing people need to be aware of is they only really work well with underfloor heating (and a well insulated property) not radiators, the water that passes through a radiator is typically around 75C but a heat pump works best around 35C and the Coefficient of Performance (COP) reduces the higher over this temperature to the point where if it reduces to 1.0 it will means its no better than heating your property directly with regular electric heating.

Edited by deleted (Sun 30-May-21 16:56:47)

Heat pumps can work sucessfully via radiators too, they just need to be increased in size (at least double - but depends totally on what was there before) and being fed by 15mm pipe size to each radiator. I have just renovated my house and used 10mm microbore, so regretting that decision.

For heat pumps to work properly though you really need (in addtion to the above):

1) a relatively leak proof house and good insultaiton
2) Change of mindset that you cannot have heating coming on an hour before you need it, it needs to be on for much longer

The government / industry is moving away from heatpumps for older housing stock though as it's just going to be too costly (and messy) to retrofit. The view is now to move to hydrogen (the latest Worcester Bosch boilers for example can be switched to hydrogen once available for less than £100) or move to communcal heating in more populated areas.

In reply to a post by gary333:

Heat pumps can work sucessfully via radiators too, they just need to be increased in size (at least double - but depends totally on what was there before) and being fed by 15mm pipe size to each radiator. I have just renovated my house and used 10mm microbore, so regretting that decision.

For heat pumps to work properly though you really need (in addition to the above):

1) a relatively leak proof house and good insulation
2) Change of mindset that you cannot have heating coming on an hour before you need it, it needs to be on for much longer

The government / industry is moving away from heat pumps for older housing stock though as it's just going to be too costly (and messy) to retrofit. The view is now to move to hydrogen (the latest Worcester Bosch boilers for example can be switched to hydrogen once available for less than £100) or move to communal heating in more populated areas.

OK thats interesting, so they double the size of the radiators (which in turn doubles its surface area) to compensate for the lower temperature output of the heat pump.


Edit: Had 10mm microbore in a previous house, made a promise to myself never again

Edited by deleted (Tue 01-Jun-21 16:50:31)

Yeah, thats correct they increase the surface area of the radiators. Some houses may need triple the size which could be impossible due to size of room, or visually ugly if they need to use K3 (triple panel rads). Underfloor heating is a better solution but even then it’s expensive and not suitable for some houses or floor finishes.

I used 10mm to drop all radiators from above and hide pipes in wall. I didn’t use manifolds so hopefully won’t be as bad as most houses due to the manifold normally being the weak point with microbore causing blockages. I’ll likely convert to air to air heat pump when it conks so can have aircon and use a solar fed unvented tank next time around.

I'd rather switch to mini splits if using heat pumps, rather than trying to adapt existing radiators.

In reply to a post by jpm:

I'd rather switch to mini splits if using heat pumps, rather than trying to adapt existing radiators.

Mini splits, do you mean multi split or just split system in general? Yeah, they are air to air and is what I’d go for as it gives aircon. However, from a comfort point of view for those who want just heating then convection in the form of radiators or underfloor gives a better level of comfort plus the ability to link in with solar in future so it’s swings and roundabouts.

Edited by gary333 (Tue 01-Jun-21 20:20:34)

Radiant floor is the gold standard but I think you need to be willing to take a compromise if you're retro-fitting. For new build where you can take into account the amount of insulation required then knock yourself out.

Combined with some sort of heat recovery ventilation system to stop everything getting stale.

if openreach were to retire the copper network in my city they wouldnt be selling any services given they not planning any FTTP here.