Migrate to VoIP without losing broadband?

Two altnets are building fibre where I live, and I had hoped to be able to get FTTP within a few months. However, the cost will be iro £50/month once any sign-up discounts have expired, and one altnet has an 18-month contract. This is getting on for twice what I pay for my unreliable FTTC connection now.

I'm a pensioner on a fixed income. I'm looking at a £500/year increase in my energy bills over the next few months, plus general inflation currently at around 5%. Economies are going to have to be made, some luxuries are going to have to go, and I fear my dreams of FTTP soon will have to be one of them.

I had a plan to install FTTP, migrate my phone number to a VoIP provider, and then cease my copper line entirely, assuming FTTP was OK. I've had my landline phone number for about 30 years now. Tracking down everyone who has acquired it over that time would be a nightmare, so I planned to phase it out over a period of a few years, eventually discontinuing the VoIP service once nobody used it any more.

If I don't do FTTP, I'd still like to migrate the phone to VoIP, and just have broadband/FTTC. But if I migrate the number to VoIP, that will cease the broadband service too. My ISP says the standard time to restore it would be 14 days. It might be less, but they couldn't guarantee it. It might be longer if things don't go smoothly. I also understand that if there's a waiting list for FTTC slots in my cab - I don't know whether there is, how can I find out? - I might not be able to get a new FTTC connection at all.

My wife and I do voluntary work which needs a good internet connection. We could get by for a couple of weeks with mobile tethering, if it were the right couple of weeks in the month, but that would likely to be too difficult to arrange. Anything longer would be painful. 4G signals aren't brilliant here.

The only way both to migrate the phone no and maintain broadband that I can see would be to install a second physical copper circuit which I don't need, with another hole in my wall and second NTE box, and set up broadband on that before ceasing my current line. But that seems nuts, and expensive. Anyone got any better ideas?

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

I also understand that if there's a waiting list for FTTC slots in my cab - I don't know whether there is, how can I find out? - I might not be able to get a new FTTC connection at all.

Run an address check on the BT Broadband Availability Checker

If FTTC is showing available then there's no waiting list. If it showed waiting list then... there's a waiting list and the cabinet is full.

It's important to use the address check as if you already have FTTC and use your phone number then it will show available even if the cabinet is full and there's a waiting list.

Ah, thanks for that. FTTC shows as available, so at least full cab is not an issue. But it's still a pretty ugly solution. Installing copper I don't want in 2022 when fibre is just around the corner doesn't seem like a very smart thing to be doing.

(Edit) I should have added for completeness that where I live is not currently on OR's fibre build plan out to the end of 2026.

Edited by Thaumaturge (Fri 14-Jan-22 17:34:02)

One possibility is to order a new FTTC service on your existing line and then port the number to VOIP a few days before the new service is due to start.

It is poor that Ofcom have not imposed any requirements for seamless porting out of the underlying PSTN number on communications providers, especially as more people will run into this situation if they are in areas where the PSTN stop sell and subsequent switch off is before FTTP becomes available.

As you say getting a second FTTC connection installed is less than optimal. If you have an older installation, back when the drop cable had two pairs as standard, it may only be a second NTE rather than a new drop cable.

The 'end of 2026' for Openreach FTTP is the very latest date, they do change as their plans develop - some areas which also had this date have suddenly been brought forward to Feb 2023 in the latest round of FTTP priority exchanges.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

One possibility is to order a new FTTC service on your existing line and then port the number to VOIP a few days before the new service is due to start.

I believe the order of a new FTTC service on the same line (basically a migration) would block the number being ported.

The long and short of it is that it just isn't possible to migrate a landline number to VOIP without it ceasing the broadband service that's bundled with it.**

**It isn't possible without using Openreach's "renumber with number export" service, which very few providers offer.

In reply to a post by tdw42:

It is poor that Ofcom have not imposed any requirements for seamless porting out of the underlying PSTN number on communications providers, especially as more people will run into this situation if they are in areas where the PSTN stop sell and subsequent switch off is before FTTP becomes available.

I didn't think this would happen . This OR page (last but one bullet under key points to know) says copper won't be retired until full fibre is available. I've seen something similar on the Ofcom site, can't locate it at the mo.

In reply to a post by tdw42:

The 'end of 2026' for Openreach FTTP is the very latest date, they do change as their plans develop...

I should clarify.. there is no date for my area for OR FTTP. The OR build plan map covers up to end 2026, and doesn't include my area at all. My exchange is not on the Full Fibre Build Programme list (download link on that page).

Although worth bearing in mind that the PSTN can be switched off and copper used for broadband only, as far as I know FTTP being above a certain coverage level just brings the 2025 date forward a little

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

Installing copper I don't want in 2022 when fibre is just around the corner doesn't seem like a very smart thing to be doing.

(Edit) I should have added for completeness that where I live is not currently on OR's fibre build plan out to the end of 2026.

When I look at FTTC options for my address I only have SOGEA available (no FTTP here nor plans). So in you situation I would order a new FTTC using SOGEA if available. You'll probably get the FTTC delivered via the second pair on your existing copper connection but you won't get a phone number or line to make calls on. Once that's up and running port your 'old' number to VoIP thus ceasing the 'old' FTTC.

So, you won't really be installing copper, just using the existing!

I thought this situation would be the norm from now on? Ofcom's process for withdrawing support for all copper lines at an exchange takes a minimum of 5 years from when OR give 1 year's notice to Ofcom that they will achieve 75% fibre coverage at an exchange. So for exchanges for which they have not yet done that, ie the vast majority, the earliest copper support could be completely withdrawn would be 2027. If PSTN switch-off goes ahead as scheduled end-2025, then most exchanges will be running copper broadband services for some years thereafter.

Um - I was going to insert links to the Ofcom docs. I'm sure I've been able to do that before, but I don't seem able to do it any more. Have I gone dulally?

When I go to "Reply" I see 5 buttons - B(old), I(talic), U(nderline), Link and Quote. Are they showing on your screen?

Yes, I can see them again, and I'm sure I've seen them in the past. But I'm on a different machine now. I think this is probably a script blocker issue; I'll investigate some more when I get back to the first machine.

The link I intended was to this page, and the pdf file referenced at the end.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

One possibility is to order a new FTTC service on your existing line and then port the number to VOIP a few days before the new service is due to start.

I believe the order of a new FTTC service on the same line (basically a migration) would block the number being ported.

The long and short of it is that it just isn't possible to migrate a landline number to VOIP without it ceasing the broadband service that's bundled with it.**

**It isn't possible without using Openreach's "renumber with number export" service, which very few providers offer.

AIUI A&A do offer that service to port a number to their own VOIP. As mention in this thread on the Plusnet forum.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

AIUI A&A do offer that service to port a number to their own VOIP. As mention in this thread on the Plusnet forum.

Yes, but you need to migrate your broadband and phone to them 1st.

They then use the "renumber with number export" that I mentioned in my previous reply.

Thanks for the pointer. The object of this exercise was to try to save a few pennies, and A&A are not cheap. Plus they have a usage quota (500MB/mo - how quaint, I didn't think any ISPs still did this) which we would certainly get near to. A lot of our usage is trundling very large files about.

But I'll give them a call sometime soon, see what they can come up with.

500 MB a month!! 🤣 Can’t be true surely.

No, sorry, 500GB. I'd just spotted the typo and logged in to fix it - you got there first.

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

Thanks for the pointer. The object of this exercise was to try to save a few pennies, and A&A are not cheap. Plus they have a usage quota (500MB/mo - how quaint, I didn't think any ISPs still did this) which we would certainly get near to. A lot of our usage is trundling very large files about.

But I'll give them a call sometime soon, see what they can come up with.

You could ask whether they really do insist that you use their broadband for the number porting to work.

They don't https://www.aa.net.uk/voice-and-mobile/number-portin... as the broadband provider has to accept the PSTN number change, being in control of both PSTN and broadband simplifies this.

I suppose you could port both to A&A and later port broadband out to a less expensive provider, however the setup fee for short broadband contracts and the hassle of migrating the broadband twice may be less attractive that just getting a second line installed.

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

I thought this situation would be the norm from now on? Ofcom's process for withdrawing support for all copper lines at an exchange takes a minimum of 5 years from when OR give 1 year's notice to Ofcom that they will achieve 75% fibre coverage at an exchange. So for exchanges for which they have not yet done that, ie the vast majority, the earliest copper support could be completely withdrawn would be 2027. If PSTN switch-off goes ahead as scheduled end-2025, then most exchanges will be running copper broadband services for some years thereafter.

Um - I was going to insert links to the Ofcom docs. I'm sure I've been able to do that before, but I don't seem able to do it any more. Have I gone dulally?

The March 2021 WFTMR (Volume 1, section 2.49 to 2.5) and section 2 of Volume 3, I think summarises the Ofcom copper retirement process and thresholds, extract taken below:

First threshold
The first threshold is the threshold that Openreach must meet to stop selling new copper services (stop sell) in an exchange area. At this point customers who want to switch providers, upgrade or move homes will need to purchase broadband and voice service over an Openreach full fibre connection or from an alternative network operator. It applies when:
• Openreach has published a notice at least 12 months in advance of the date when it expects 75% of premises in an exchange area to be covered by ultrafast (the first threshold); and
• Openreach makes ultrafast services available at 75% of premises in the exchange area.

Second threshold

The second threshold is the threshold that Openreach must meet for the charge control on copper services to be withdrawn in a completed exchange area where full fibre is available. It applies when:
• Openreach has published a notice at least 12 months in advance of the date when it expects the exchange to be completed;
• Openreach makes ultrafast services available at all premises in the exchange area other than those excluded (a ‘completed exchange’). We said that we would give a direction about the circumstances in which premises can be excluded from the definition of a completed exchange and that we would set out our proposals after the publication of this statement; and
• At least two years has passed since the stop sell has come into effect.

Third threshold

The third threshold is the threshold that Openreach must meet for the complete withdrawal of regulation of copper services where full fibre services are available in an exchange area. It applies when:
• The criteria for the second threshold have been met;
• Take-up of Openreach copper-based services is no more than 10% of relevant
premises within the exchange area and there are reasonable measures in place to
support vulnerable consumers;
• Openreach has published a notice to confirm that the preceding criteria have been met;
and
• Two years have passed since Openreach published that notice.

There's as you can imagine quite a bit of small print related to the above, but I think that's the gist of it.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

You could ask whether they really do insist that you use their broadband for the number porting to work.

It's not that they insist on it. It's a requirement.

A&A cannot renumber your line if that line is not with them.

Michael asked if AA insist you use their broadband for their number porting to work

You replied they don't, but as the broadband provider need to accept the number change it makes it easier.

It cannot be done unless the landline and broadband are both with the same provider.
A&A cannot renumber a line that is not theirs. You cannot port just the phone line to them without it ceasing the broadband.
It needs both ported to A&A.

From the page you linked:

We can port in numbers without the loss of the broadband and the copper pair service only if the broadband and copper pair are provided by us.

Edited by j0hn83 (Sun 16-Jan-22 14:48:37)

So, in other words, unless Ofcom mandate that all ISPs provide this facility (which to me looks highly unlikely ?) you're stuffed, and in the great copper free era that will be with us you'll have two choices. 1: Remain with your ISP's proprietary 'VoIP' phone service (and be compelled to use their supplied router too, at least as your 'edge' device, or bite the bullet and have a fresh VoIP number with a third party VoIP supplier, and ditch the ISP phone option (and your legacy phone number) ?

Edited by broadbandjockey (Mon 17-Jan-22 10:01:37)

In reply to a post by broadbandjockey:

So, in other words, unless Ofcom mandate that all ISPs provide this facility (which to me looks highly unlikely ?) you're stuffed, and in the great copper free era that will be with us you'll have two choices. 1: Remain with your ISP's proprietary 'VoIP' phone service (and be compelled to use their supplied router too, at least as your 'edge' device, or bite the bullet and have a fresh VoIP number with a third party VoIP supplier, and ditch the ISP phone option (and your legacy phone number) ?

Will there be the same option applying to fibre as currently applies to copper? The legacy number can be transferred to a VOIP service with that migration prompting cessation of the existing service. Currently that process probably leads into the ISP charging for the outstanding period of the contract and needs the user to start a new contract with whatever ISP of choice. Makes it a potentially expensive move (and brings the risk of a period of downtime while the new service is enabled).

Has anyone delved far enough into the OfCOM guff to establish whether that route will remain an option (even though weighted in the favour of the supplier rather than the consumer)?

Edited by GonePostal (Mon 17-Jan-22 10:22:00)

You can migrate your landline number to VOIP. It just ceases the current broadband.
This can be timed during say a switch from FTTC to FTTP to prevent down time.

Failing that there's going to be a couple weeks with no fixed line broadband for anyone who wishes to separate their landline and broadband service.
A mobile broadband service could be used during the downtime.
This has always been the case. It isn't something new.

The renumber with number export service also isn't free. Openreach charge £35+vat for it.
A&A charge £45 which is reasonable.

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/prici...

It actually called "WLR renumber with number export" so looks like it only works with WLR numbers.
Anyone who is already on a proprietary VOIP service might be stuffed.

Edited by j0hn83 (Mon 17-Jan-22 11:13:24)

There's an awful lot of guff in this 4 Jan 2021 Ofcom publication. Part B is the most relevant but all of it is important.

I haven't read it in depth yet, and their may be a later version as it contains a large number of EU references. Though given the pandemic chaos since the date these may still be in force. Just not got any (near-identical?) replacement UK equivalents created.

In particular I haven't looked into the national telephone numbering plan footnotes. Presumably as landline numbers are being ported to VOIP, there will be something in there about the loss of the distinction between the regional 01/02 codes and the mobile 07 ones.

Also on that first quick skim it looked to me that the AAISP requirement to have the landline with them before they can port the number and renumber the landline may not be the case in the long-term. Though of course they may be able to keep it, in the same way as Sky can currently insist on taking the landline if we want their broadband.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

Will there be the same option applying to fibre as currently applies to copper? The legacy number can be transferred to a VOIP service with that migration prompting cessation of the existing service. Currently that process probably leads into the ISP charging for the outstanding period of the contract and needs the user to start a new contract with whatever ISP of choice. Makes it a potentially expensive move (and brings the risk of a period of downtime while the new service is enabled).

I can't see how anyone could reasonably complain about being charged for any remaining time on their contract.

They contracted for voice+broadband and shouldn't really expect to be able to migrate 1 part of that to another company mid contract without paying off the remainder of that contract.

Renumbering a line to move it to VOIP also costs £35+vat from Openreach before the ISP adds on their fee.

Wasn't complaining about having to pay for services received and quite accept that there is a migration cost; rather it seems weighted in favour of the supplier that migrating the legacy number causes cessation of the whole service. Why is it not possible to pay to migrate the number to a VOIP provider while still retaining the existing connection for internet access and paying the full contracted price as previously agreed while the contract runs its term? That is where I have a problem.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

Wasn't complaining about having to pay for services received and quite accept that there is a migration cost; rather it seems weighted in favour of the supplier that migrating the legacy number causes cessation of the whole service. Why is it not possible to pay to migrate the number to a VOIP provider while still retaining the existing connection for internet access and paying the full contracted price as previously agreed while the contract runs its term? That is where I have a problem.

It's tied up I think with the fact your 'line' is known throughout Openreach's and your ISP's system by its landline phone number ?

In reply to a post by broadbandjockey:

So, in other words, unless Ofcom mandate that all ISPs provide this facility (which to me looks highly unlikely ?) you're stuffed, ...

I raised this issue with Ofcom, emphasising that the situation I am in is anti-competitive, as the ceasing of my broadband for a period of weeks is a strong hindrance to me being able freely to choose my phone provider. I received a full and prompt reply, which included the following:

"We acknowledge that at present, this is not an ideal situation as we encourage consumers to consider switching to benefit from better deals or services. Our aim is to increase the availability of fibre for everybody and we are working towards eradicating situations such as this."

No specifics of course, but maybe, just maybe, there is some hope of Ofcom intervention particularly when the PSTN switch-off looms large.

Well done .

Maybe I'll email them about the same thing, see if they consider the amount of contact about the same issue to decide the importance of regulation in certain areas.

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

But if I migrate the number to VoIP, that will cease the broadband service too. My ISP says the standard time to restore it would be 14 days. It might be less, but they couldn't guarantee it. It might be longer if things don't go smoothly. I also understand that if there's a waiting list for FTTC slots in my cab - I don't know whether there is, how can I find out? - I might not be able to get a new FTTC connection at all.

In the traditional sense, yes this will happen.

If you're moving the data part over to a SoGEA service, you can port the number to VoIP. Openreach have a few processes for this (if the SoGEA and port are going to the same provider, if they're going to different providers and the same but with non-BT originated numbers).

The original route of renumbering with an export still works too but has additional cost implications and you'll still retain a copper voice line (meaning a change to SoGEA (ignoring FTTP for now) will have to happen at some point).

If SoGEA is an option for you, speak with your provider and they may be able to give some guidance on the process.

Matt