In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

I thought this situation would be the norm from now on? Ofcom's process for withdrawing support for all copper lines at an exchange takes a minimum of 5 years from when OR give 1 year's notice to Ofcom that they will achieve 75% fibre coverage at an exchange. So for exchanges for which they have not yet done that, ie the vast majority, the earliest copper support could be completely withdrawn would be 2027. If PSTN switch-off goes ahead as scheduled end-2025, then most exchanges will be running copper broadband services for some years thereafter.

Um - I was going to insert links to the Ofcom docs. I'm sure I've been able to do that before, but I don't seem able to do it any more. Have I gone dulally?

The March 2021 WFTMR (Volume 1, section 2.49 to 2.5) and section 2 of Volume 3, I think summarises the Ofcom copper retirement process and thresholds, extract taken below:

First threshold
The first threshold is the threshold that Openreach must meet to stop selling new copper services (stop sell) in an exchange area. At this point customers who want to switch providers, upgrade or move homes will need to purchase broadband and voice service over an Openreach full fibre connection or from an alternative network operator. It applies when:
• Openreach has published a notice at least 12 months in advance of the date when it expects 75% of premises in an exchange area to be covered by ultrafast (the first threshold); and
• Openreach makes ultrafast services available at 75% of premises in the exchange area.

Second threshold

The second threshold is the threshold that Openreach must meet for the charge control on copper services to be withdrawn in a completed exchange area where full fibre is available. It applies when:
• Openreach has published a notice at least 12 months in advance of the date when it expects the exchange to be completed;
• Openreach makes ultrafast services available at all premises in the exchange area other than those excluded (a ‘completed exchange’). We said that we would give a direction about the circumstances in which premises can be excluded from the definition of a completed exchange and that we would set out our proposals after the publication of this statement; and
• At least two years has passed since the stop sell has come into effect.

Third threshold

The third threshold is the threshold that Openreach must meet for the complete withdrawal of regulation of copper services where full fibre services are available in an exchange area. It applies when:
• The criteria for the second threshold have been met;
• Take-up of Openreach copper-based services is no more than 10% of relevant
premises within the exchange area and there are reasonable measures in place to
support vulnerable consumers;
• Openreach has published a notice to confirm that the preceding criteria have been met;
and
• Two years have passed since Openreach published that notice.

There's as you can imagine quite a bit of small print related to the above, but I think that's the gist of it.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

You could ask whether they really do insist that you use their broadband for the number porting to work.

It's not that they insist on it. It's a requirement.

A&A cannot renumber your line if that line is not with them.

Michael asked if AA insist you use their broadband for their number porting to work

You replied they don't, but as the broadband provider need to accept the number change it makes it easier.

It cannot be done unless the landline and broadband are both with the same provider.
A&A cannot renumber a line that is not theirs. You cannot port just the phone line to them without it ceasing the broadband.
It needs both ported to A&A.

From the page you linked:

We can port in numbers without the loss of the broadband and the copper pair service only if the broadband and copper pair are provided by us.

Edited by j0hn83 (Sun 16-Jan-22 14:48:37)

So, in other words, unless Ofcom mandate that all ISPs provide this facility (which to me looks highly unlikely ?) you're stuffed, and in the great copper free era that will be with us you'll have two choices. 1: Remain with your ISP's proprietary 'VoIP' phone service (and be compelled to use their supplied router too, at least as your 'edge' device, or bite the bullet and have a fresh VoIP number with a third party VoIP supplier, and ditch the ISP phone option (and your legacy phone number) ?

Edited by broadbandjockey (Mon 17-Jan-22 10:01:37)

In reply to a post by broadbandjockey:

So, in other words, unless Ofcom mandate that all ISPs provide this facility (which to me looks highly unlikely ?) you're stuffed, and in the great copper free era that will be with us you'll have two choices. 1: Remain with your ISP's proprietary 'VoIP' phone service (and be compelled to use their supplied router too, at least as your 'edge' device, or bite the bullet and have a fresh VoIP number with a third party VoIP supplier, and ditch the ISP phone option (and your legacy phone number) ?

Will there be the same option applying to fibre as currently applies to copper? The legacy number can be transferred to a VOIP service with that migration prompting cessation of the existing service. Currently that process probably leads into the ISP charging for the outstanding period of the contract and needs the user to start a new contract with whatever ISP of choice. Makes it a potentially expensive move (and brings the risk of a period of downtime while the new service is enabled).

Has anyone delved far enough into the OfCOM guff to establish whether that route will remain an option (even though weighted in the favour of the supplier rather than the consumer)?

Edited by GonePostal (Mon 17-Jan-22 10:22:00)

You can migrate your landline number to VOIP. It just ceases the current broadband.
This can be timed during say a switch from FTTC to FTTP to prevent down time.

Failing that there's going to be a couple weeks with no fixed line broadband for anyone who wishes to separate their landline and broadband service.
A mobile broadband service could be used during the downtime.
This has always been the case. It isn't something new.

The renumber with number export service also isn't free. Openreach charge £35+vat for it.
A&A charge £45 which is reasonable.

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/prici...

It actually called "WLR renumber with number export" so looks like it only works with WLR numbers.
Anyone who is already on a proprietary VOIP service might be stuffed.

Edited by j0hn83 (Mon 17-Jan-22 11:13:24)

There's an awful lot of guff in this 4 Jan 2021 Ofcom publication. Part B is the most relevant but all of it is important.

I haven't read it in depth yet, and their may be a later version as it contains a large number of EU references. Though given the pandemic chaos since the date these may still be in force. Just not got any (near-identical?) replacement UK equivalents created.

In particular I haven't looked into the national telephone numbering plan footnotes. Presumably as landline numbers are being ported to VOIP, there will be something in there about the loss of the distinction between the regional 01/02 codes and the mobile 07 ones.

Also on that first quick skim it looked to me that the AAISP requirement to have the landline with them before they can port the number and renumber the landline may not be the case in the long-term. Though of course they may be able to keep it, in the same way as Sky can currently insist on taking the landline if we want their broadband.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

Will there be the same option applying to fibre as currently applies to copper? The legacy number can be transferred to a VOIP service with that migration prompting cessation of the existing service. Currently that process probably leads into the ISP charging for the outstanding period of the contract and needs the user to start a new contract with whatever ISP of choice. Makes it a potentially expensive move (and brings the risk of a period of downtime while the new service is enabled).

I can't see how anyone could reasonably complain about being charged for any remaining time on their contract.

They contracted for voice+broadband and shouldn't really expect to be able to migrate 1 part of that to another company mid contract without paying off the remainder of that contract.

Renumbering a line to move it to VOIP also costs £35+vat from Openreach before the ISP adds on their fee.

Wasn't complaining about having to pay for services received and quite accept that there is a migration cost; rather it seems weighted in favour of the supplier that migrating the legacy number causes cessation of the whole service. Why is it not possible to pay to migrate the number to a VOIP provider while still retaining the existing connection for internet access and paying the full contracted price as previously agreed while the contract runs its term? That is where I have a problem.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

Wasn't complaining about having to pay for services received and quite accept that there is a migration cost; rather it seems weighted in favour of the supplier that migrating the legacy number causes cessation of the whole service. Why is it not possible to pay to migrate the number to a VOIP provider while still retaining the existing connection for internet access and paying the full contracted price as previously agreed while the contract runs its term? That is where I have a problem.

It's tied up I think with the fact your 'line' is known throughout Openreach's and your ISP's system by its landline phone number ?