Migrating a phone number BT to Zen

We have a BT line and a Zen line, we want the BT number to go to Zen and cancel the BT line.

In the past I've done this with Sipgate, they did all the work. Zen are saying we have to cancel the BT line and have the number released. They they'll go and get it from the 'pot'.

What could possibly go wrong....

It doesn't sound right and Zen's website confirms we have a fair chance of losing the number https://www.zen.co.uk/resources/docs/default-source/...

Are we asking the wrong question or are they misunderstanding?

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

We have a BT line and a Zen line, we want the BT number to go to Zen and cancel the BT line.

In the past I've done this with Sipgate, they did all the work. Zen are saying we have to cancel the BT line and have the number released. They they'll go and get it from the 'pot'.

I would not cancel my line and hope Zen could get my telephone number from the 'pot', if it was easy to get the number from the 'pot' everyone would be doing it.

Edit: the number would also go back into the BT 'pot' so how exactly are Zen claiming they could get a BT number from the BT 'pot'?

Edited by deleted (Thu 07-Apr-22 16:00:23)

In reply to a post by dect:

I would not cancel my line and hope Zen could get my telephone number from the 'pot', if it was easy to get the number from the 'pot' everyone would be doing it.

My exact thoughts!

Zen says:

we also have a renumber order to bring the number ending in xxxx to your new service. however when I have tried to place this renumber order in our suppliers system it is giving the error that it is not available for reservation.

Please can you advise if you have asked your current provider to cancel and release the number? If not, please can you ask them to do?

This will allow the number to go into the pot where all suppliers have a chance to take the number so there is a risk it could be taken.

She says "renumber", I thought we wanted to port or migrate. True, the BT number will be used to renumber the Zen line (and we lose the Zen number).

Crossed lines?!

I think there is a misunderstanding.

The way I've read it, you currently have 2 lines, one BT line and one with Zen. You want to move the BT number to your Zen line.

Zen can't grab your number because it is in use (by your BT line). Zen can only renumber your Zen line if the new number is available (in the "pot"), which it isn't unless you cancel your BT line.

I think you need to get Zen to take over your BT line, then cancel your existing Zen line.

In reply to a post by sheephouse:

I think you need to get Zen to take over your BT line, then cancel your existing Zen line.

Yes. But it's more complex...

The lines are at different premisses. The Zen line need to be kept and the BT one cancelled. So we need Zen to - somehow - port the BT number and then the BT line gets cancelled.

Why don't you move the BT number to Sipgate, then you can keep the Zen number as well as the BT number at the location where the Zen line is.

In reply to a post by dect:

Why don't you move the BT number to Sipgate, then you can keep the Zen number as well as the BT number at the location where the Zen line is.

Why didn't they do this three years ago when I suggested it?!

The other complexity is the BT number is on a PBX and I think linked with three lines. I think that make it hard for Sipgate to port. We only want the main number anyway. The plan is to keep the known public number for incoming calls (on the FTTC line) while getting a different (better!) number ported to VoIP to become the 'new' public advertised line.

Gets more complex every time I type.

I'm hoping I don't have to say "I told you so" when they lose their (well know) number after ignoring my previous advice to do this beforehand.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

BT number is on a PBX and I think linked with three lines.

So are they stroke lines e.g. /1 , /2 and /3 with the same number and is the broadband on the first line?

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

BT number is on a PBX and I think linked with three lines.

So are they stroke lines e.g. /1 , /2 and /3 with the same number and is the broadband on the first line?

I really don't know the other numbers. They've only ever 'advertised' the one number. There's no broadband on this line or any BT line. Currently its on a (different) Zen line. We want that Zen number to go to VoIP and cease that line. But that's a different problem for another day!

So if you’ve only ever know the one number, there’s a good chance the others are, as Dect suggests, stroke lines.

Can you not get the required number put on permanent divert to wherever it’s required ? Then you’ll get the incoming calls to that number until such time as you feel happy it’s course has run.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

In reply to a post by dect:

Why don't you move the BT number to Sipgate, then you can keep the Zen number as well as the BT number at the location where the Zen line is.

Why didn't they do this three years ago when I suggested it?!

The other complexity is the BT number is on a PBX and I think linked with three lines. I think that make it hard for Sipgate to port.

Yep. Sipgate will only be able to port a ‘standard’ PSTN line. Anything like a featureline going to the PBX wouldn’t be able to be ported. See carve-out in link.

It sounds as though Zen are getting confused, you are just wanting them to port the BT number to their SIP service which will automatically cease the BT lines.

The multiple lines may be breaking their automated systems if they are requesting transfer from a single line. Ceasing the BT lines is a really bad idea until the new switching processes come into effect as they specifically allow a ceased number to be ported elsewhere, and even then you may end up with a number of days downtime.

If it is for business a residential Sipgate account may not be the best choice, it would be worth considering the likes of AAISP or Gradwell if Zen can't sort it.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Anything like a featureline going to the PBX wouldn’t be able to be ported.

Don't think they would be using featureline, from what I can remember of featureline its better used for single handsets rather than connected to a key system or PBX. I suspect the way around it if they are stroke lines would be to cease /2 and /3 before then trying to port the number to someone like Sipgate.

Yep, featureline is of no use on a PABX.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Can you not get the required number put on permanent divert to wherever it’s required ? Then you’ll get the incoming calls to that number until such time as you feel happy it’s course has run.

I was just thinking that. Not on a divert but - as I've done in the past - a BT announcement which says "the number you are calling has changed, please redial 01 234 5678".

A divert won't help people update their address books and there's the additional cost of diverting each call.

In reply to a post by tdw42:

It sounds as though Zen are getting confused, you are just wanting them to port the BT number to their SIP service which will automatically cease the BT lines.

No, not quite. I want to port the BT number to the Zen landline (not SIP) and then cease the BT service.

So the old number should replace the number on the new Zen service which is the landline used for broadband.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Yep. Sipgate will only be able to port a ‘standard’ PSTN line. Anything like a featureline going to the PBX wouldn’t be able to be ported. See carve-out in link.

Yes but no, see this link! https://teamhelp.sipgate.co.uk/hc/en-gb/articles/204...

I'm hoping this is for Team and Trunking as it says they can port single, multi and PBX lines.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

No, not quite. I want to port the BT number to the Zen landline (not SIP) and then cease the BT service.

So the old number should replace the number on the new Zen service which is the landline used for broadband.

That is technically possible, the process would almost certainly have to be handled manually rather than by their usual automated systems. Renumbering the Zen-provided line will likely cease the broadband which then need reproviding unless the correct mix of Openreach orders are used.

Given that PSTN will have gone in less than three years why not switch to SIP? New residential Zen broadband connections are now SOGEA with optional SIP, I imagine their business connections will soon change too.

In reply to a post by tdw42:

That is technically possible, the process would almost certainly have to be handled manually rather than by their usual automated systems. Renumbering the Zen-provided line will likely cease the broadband which then need reproviding unless the correct mix of Openreach orders are used.

Given that PSTN will have gone in less than three years why not switch to SIP? New residential Zen broadband connections are now SOGEA with optional SIP, I imagine their business connections will soon change too.

Zen seem to have accepted it is possible and started the process only to be told by BT the number was unavailable.

Porting the number to VoIP is an option if Zen won't play. But I currently have no idea - after looking at the account on-line - how many numbers are on the PBX or what they're paying for. BT's opacity makes treacle easy to see through....

It sounds to me like you have an analogue multi line.
They act like normal analogue lines but one number is used by all three lines.
You will be unable to port this to a single analogue line.
The best bet is to speak to a commercial VOIP provider who can port the number.

Thanks
Dan

In reply to a post by dect:

So are they stroke lines e.g. /1 , /2 and /3 with the same number and is the broadband on the first line?

I've managed to get a bill (tells me nothing) and a look at the account on-line.

There is only one number mentioned, nothing about other lines /2 or /3.

They have a "Business Auxiliary line service” at £33.89 per month and a "Calling Feature Pack" at £5.03 per month. Once a mobile phone is taken into account there's still £90 left which I assume is line rental.

I think I just want to give this to Sipgate or the like but I do know (from experience) you need to have all your facts lined up otherwise the port will be rejected.

In reply to a post by danielhyde:

It sounds to me like you have an analogue multi line.

Looks that way then. As I say here https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/4709946-... there's no mention of other numbers on the bill.

In reply to a post by danielhyde:

It sounds to me like you have an analogue multi line.
...snip....
You will be unable to port this to a single analogue line.

Maybe not. Zen are now saying they can place an order for a 'transfer of existing line' to Zen so that number goes to them and then transfer that number to the current Zen line. Then cancel the second line and pay the early termination fees.

Oh, and we still may lose the number anyway.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

Zen seem to have accepted it is possible and started the process only to be told by BT the number was unavailable.

Porting the number to VoIP is an option if Zen won't play. But I currently have no idea - after looking at the account on-line - how many numbers are on the PBX or what they're paying for. BT's opacity makes treacle easy to see through....

I helped relocate a business with an ISDN2e plus a number of analog lines an number of years ago, as with you trying to decipher the BT Business billing is almost impossible. As there were some non-trival changes required (changing the DN on the ISDN2e, porting some of the analog line numbers to MSNs) and BT being decidely unhelpful everything was transferred to ICUK with a like-for-like takeover, they then handled the relocation, renumbering and porting with a set of linked orders.

It may be worth having Zen, if they are able, do a like-for-like takeover of the current BT lines so they have full control of the process.

In reply to a post by tdw42:

It may be worth having Zen, if they are able, do a like-for-like takeover of the current BT lines so they have full control of the process.

Yes, they seem to be willing. However they say we will need another line which defeats the object. And it's going to be expensive.

The point was to have one landline and the original BT number. We should have been told before the Zen landline & FTTC was installed to have them do a line takeover. Now its all going wrong...

From the description, looks like Dect spotted it correctly … main number then a couple of aux lines .. does the number get a lot of traffic then ?

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

does the number get a lot of traffic then ?

More when there were lots of people in the office. But they need to keep the number active as it's the only one customers know. The plan (was) to have it go direct to voicemail telling punters to call the new number. After a couple of years it would become redundant.

If only they did that five years ago... Not to mention the pile of cash they'd have saved.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

In reply to a post by tdw42:

It may be worth having Zen, if they are able, do a like-for-like takeover of the current BT lines so they have full control of the process.

Yes, they seem to be willing. However they say we will need another line which defeats the object. And it's going to be expensive.

It sounds as they are looking at a transfer, maybe to LLU. The whole point of like-for-like / working line takeover is that there are no physical changes involved, just a change of provider for the same underlying WLR3 servce.

In reply to a post by tdw42:

It sounds as they are looking at a transfer, maybe to LLU. The whole point of like-for-like / working line takeover is that there are no physical changes involved, just a change of provider for the same underlying WLR3 servce.

The fly in the ointment could be that the landlines are in different locations. It's an office move and we want the old landline number to ring in the new office (which is on the same exchange). I think we should have moved the number at the same time we ordered the new line. But the office was ready before the people were ready to move and getting the telecoms in place before the staff seemed like a cunning plan...

True enough.

Hindsight is, as we all know, 20/20 vision

I believe the best option would be to find a provider that can port the number to sip and then they could have a voicemail saying to call the new number.
I know of a provider that can do this, happy to pass on the details if you want.

Thanks
Dan

In reply to a post by danielhyde:

I believe the best option would be to find a provider that can port the number to sip and then they could have a voicemail saying to call the new number.
I know of a provider that can do this, happy to pass on the details if you want.

Thanks for the offer. I was already in contact with a hosted VoIP provider to get some 'lines' for the new office. I'm asking them to see if they can port this number. Then I'll continue with my plan and leave it on voicemail with an announcement of the new number.

EDIT:
Ignore all my stuff later in this post. My question has been answered fully by tdw42.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This all looks very complicated and difficult to fix, but leaves me with a simple question.

If customers only know of one (the main?) number, what do the other 2-many (you seem unsure how many) do? Call out with number not revealed?

What I'm getting at is that if the answer to that question about the other numbers is "yes", then your client know exactly how many and what the numbers are. All of them suitable for immediate transfer to VOIP I would have thought, leaving the line with just the main number in use and migrating that.

If the answer is "no", then who externally knows the other numbers, and how? Are they for staff VPNs or similar?

We are missing facts that materially alter the solution .

Edited by pluralist (Fri 08-Apr-22 15:16:48)

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

The fly in the ointment could be that the landlines are in different locations. It's an office move and we want the old landline number to ring in the new office (which is on the same exchange).

That should make no difference to working line takover as long as both premises are served from the same physical exchange. An area code may be served from multiple exchanges and numbers are not portable between them, this is why I migrated to VoIP 8 years ago.

It is very much like what I did previously - working line takeover BT -> ICUK for all circuits, then one part of the rearrangement was transferring the DN of one analogue line at location A (which then ceased) to location B (restart a stopped line with renumber). In your case it would be a renumber of an existing line rather than a restart.

In reply to a post by pluralist:

If customers only know of one (the main?) number, what do the other 2-many (you seem unsure how many) do? Call out with number not revealed?

There is only one number. The method dates back to before ISDN - when a call arrives the primary line is rung if it is not in use, otherwise it cascades through the auxiliary line(s) ringing the first one which is not in use. If all are in use the caller will get an engaged signal. Outgoing calls can be made on any of the lines, they all present the same number for caller ID.

Ah, thanks .

My apologies to all previous posters for my muddying of the waters.

I'll now ponder.

Edited by pluralist (Fri 08-Apr-22 15:17:12)

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

They have a "Business Auxiliary line service” at £33.89 per month

OK so Auxiliary (Aux) lines and Stroke lines are one and the same thing, most engineers call them stroke lines. On the routing records the main number will have an appending /1 for the first line, /2 for the second line and so one. Back in the days before DASS and other digital means of providing lines you could see hundreds of stroke lines in large companies all with the same number so there had to be a way to easily identify them.

In reply to a post by dect:

OK so Auxiliary (Aux) lines and Stroke lines are one and the same thing, most engineers call them stroke lines. On the routing records the main number will have an appending /1 for the first line, /2 for the second line and so one.

Interesting. So the number is literally 01 234 5678 and 01 234 5678/1 and 01 234 5678/2 ? Or a sequence 01 234 5679 and 01 234 5680.

Whatever, when we call the sequential numbers one is "not recognised" and the other "does not receive incoming calls".

You call 01 234 5678

if line 1 is free it rings on 01 234 5678/1 if its busy it rings 01 234 5678/2 and if thats busy it rings 01 234 5678/3 and if thats busy you get engaged tone. When dialling out it shows as 01 234 5678 unless its withheld

Edit: Normally no way to dial the lines individually.

Edited by deleted (Fri 08-Apr-22 16:04:01)

Just out of general interest, do you know if dialling 17070 on one of the auxiliary lines and getting the "This circuit is defined as . . ." message returns the master number or the "hidden" number of the auxiliary line.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

Just out of general interest, do you know if dialling 17070 on one of the auxiliary lines and getting the "This circuit is defined as . . ." message returns the master number or the "hidden" number of the auxiliary line.

When I worked on these types of lines was before 17070 was introduced (we only had the old 174 test) so I have no idea what it would return, sorry

Just the ‘main’ number.

Thanks.

I suspect the OP is trying to do too much in one transaction , if the BT service ( line and unknown number of auxiliary lines , a PBX essentially) is at a particular location and the Zen line or lines are at another then this is not a number port , porting is a facility to change provider at the current location….so initially the OP should be looking to takeover the BT service in its entirety, with Zen, then ‘move’ the service from location A to location B , as the OP is confident both locations are served from the same exchange, once the service is relocated to the location B ( with Zen as the supplier ) the superfluous Zen service can be ceased, trying to get the existing Zen service at location B renumbered with the BT supplied number at location A ( when they don’t even know how many PBX lines this has ) is destined to fail…the OP criticism is really only of BT , yet as the losing provider they are uninvolved, it’s the gaining provider that is responsible for this either working or not
Once the required number is at the ‘correct’ location , with Zen as the supplier , then a move to VoIP can be arranged ( although this may invoke ETC with Zen ) or migrate the BT service to VoIP ( the VoIP provider solely in charge of this ) then presumably the whole point is that the number is then no longer geographically restricted and can be used wherever the OP likes

Edited by Iniltous (Sat 09-Apr-22 09:37:43)