How does SoGEA work?

My current ISP have just passed on an OR price rise for the PSTN part of my broaband (FTTC). This has inspired me to look at cheaper alternatives...
Two questions:
FTTP isn't available to me yet, so I guess SoGEA is the second best option. Can a standard PSTN/VDSL combo be 'converted' to a SoGEA line? Or is it a case of ceasing the PSTN line and intalling a separate SoGEA line?
A lot of ISPs now say "phone line not included" (e.g. Zen) - Am I right in assuming that means the phone number, rather than the phsyical line? Or will I need to pay for a phone line still (e.g. A&A)?!

I'd like to port my current landline number to a VOIP service and just continue as-is with broadband, but it seems very complciated at the moment....

SOGEA is, essentially, a D side only FTTC product , with no dial tone from the exchange.
Some service providers will offer a VOIP based phone service via a port on the supplied router.
Port your number to a separate VOIP provider (SIP Gate for instance amongst others) then just select whichever SOGEA supplier you wish, this way you won’t be ‘tied’ to one supplier … as was the issue faced by people who used a CP supplied email address back in the day.

A lot of ISPs now say "phone line not included" (e.g. Zen) - Am I right in assuming that means the phone number, rather than the phsyical line? Or will I need to pay for a phone line still (e.g. A&A)?!

Yep, they mean they mean the old exchange based voice service. These are beginning to be being switched off with a ‘stop sell’ on new orders at various exchanges in the coming months. All ought to be complete by the end of 2025.

Edited by Zarjaz (Fri 07-Jul-23 14:59:07)

Yeah just FTTC minus the dial-tone + voltage.

Got a Tempo FED (far end device) this week. Allowing a range tests and ting to be carried out sans the exchange test heads

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Got a Tempo FED (far end device) this week. Allowing a range tests and ting to be carried out sans the exchange test heads

I see they've got their own "Openreach" subsection of tools on the website...

https://www.tempocom.com/openreach/products/

Ooooh …. got it, got it, want it, got swapsies.

😅

Have a look at A&A.
I have been with A&A for a few years now, but until last year they provided my broadband on my conventional BT line where I had BT telephone service.
Last year I had A&A transfer my number and line to themselves, my number went onto their VoIP service and initially the FTTC was on what they call wires only but now this year on their SoGEA.

I am very pleased with the end result, one bonus is that there is no crackling or hiss on my analogue phones since the telephone part is all in house, (my house) from the ATA into the previous existing wiring.

Price wise I am better off than I was before with the BT & A&A combination and A&A do not have these RPI + X% price increases.

Cheers!

The biggest issue with migrating an existing PSTN + FTTC connection to SOGEA + VOIP is if you migrate to different suppliers there will be a loss of service, or potentially number:

If you migrate the PSTN number to VOIP it will cease any broadband service as these use the PSTN number as the identifier, it will no longer be be assigned to the physical circuit when ported to VOIP. You then order SOGEA broadband from the other supplier which will use the existing copper line.

If you migrate the FTTC broadband to SOGEA the PSTN number is released. Supposedly a recent change in the rules allows recently ceased PSTN numbers to be ported (IIRC within 30 days, but I don't know how reliable this is so you could potentially loose the number), so you then order VOIP from the other supplier.

If you migrate to a provider which supports VOIP (often called Digital Voice in their marketing/advertising), e.g. BT, Sky, Zen, AAISP, etc. they will link the migrations so it just a case of installing their provided router and plugging any phones into the router instead of the existing Openreach master socket. One thing to watch out for is that some providers consider the services to be linked so you can't then move the VOIP service without it ceasing the broadband, even though there is no technical reason for this. AAISP and Zen do not have this restriction.

Most providers charge a VOIP rental fee which includes inclusive minutes - obviously this is only worthwhile id you actually make outgoing calls. AFAIK AAISP are the only provider offering PAYG VOIP. It is also worth considering what equipment the providers will supply free or at cost vs. having to source your own.

In reply to a post by tdw42:

Most providers charge a VOIP rental fee which includes inclusive minutes - obviously this is only worthwhile id you actually make outgoing calls. AFAIK AAISP are the only provider offering PAYG VOIP. It is also worth considering what equipment the providers will supply free or at cost vs. having to source your own.

Wrong there, Voipfone has a PAYG service and probably quite a number of other VoIP providers as well.

I should have been more clear that I was referring to providers supplying broadband and VOIP together.

My friend is currently with TalkTalk FTTC 80/20 and has decided to run with another provider although has never had any interest or use for the PSTN service provided. So naturally opted for a SoGEA service. I was very surprised to learn that this switch to SoGEA requires an engineer visit and that a new socket will be installed on the end of the copper line. That 'service call' comes at a cost of £12 + VAT. Why is such engineering work necessary?

Possibly they'll get a voice reinjection plate, which would isolate their phone extensions (if any) from the incoming line, and allow them to be driven from the router.

But I haven't heard of this happening before, so do let us know if that's the outcome - even if, as you say, the voice part is of no interest.

Who's the gaining provider?

SOGEA conversions will be an expensive business if 30 million engineer visits are required, so I wonder if the gaining ISP is being over-cautious in this case. Also I expect they'll be paying Openreach much more than £12+VAT for the visit, unless OR have some very special deal for PSTN switch-off.

Possibly they'll get a voice reinjection plate, which would isolate their phone extensions (if any) from the incoming line, and allow them to be driven from the router.

I seriously doubt that .. by the OP’s own admission , their friends don’t use or need a VOIP service.
If they have a current FTTC connection, then it ought to be a simple remote migration to the new provider, the dial tone will go ‘soft’ and then be switched off altogether at some later date.

Sounds more like the new provider ordering and and charging them for something they don’t need . {other opinions are available}

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Possibly they'll get a voice reinjection plate, which would isolate their phone extensions (if any) from the incoming line, and allow them to be driven from the router.

I seriously doubt that .. by the OP’s own admission , their friends don’t use or need a VOIP service.
If they have a current FTTC connection, then it ought to be a simple remote migration to the new provider, the dial tone will go ‘soft’ and then be switched off altogether at some later date.

Sounds more like the new provider ordering and and charging them for something they don’t need . {other opinions are available}

Slight misunderstanding here as I am not the OP but have hi-jacked this thread. My friend has a FTTC service from TalkTalk which automatically comes with a phone line. This has never been used and there is no physical phone plugged into the master socket. An ancient ATA is used for a VoIP service from Voipfone. The gaining provider will be Cloudscape with the existing router and ATA replaced with a new router with an inbuilt ATA and is future proofed by being FTTP ready. This duo package couple with the low usage of phone calls actually made will be a lot cheaper than running with TalkTalk's offering. A further bonus being better help line support from both companies.

There is a patchy mobile signal in the area so WiFi calling is very necessary mixed in with a bit of messaging.

The written confirmation of pricing from Cloudscape makes the statement that SoGea is available at the postcode of the installation. By implication this means that SoGea is not available everywhere.

I assumed that there would be no engineer attendance but it is no big deal if that happens as help will be needed to get mobile devices connected to the replacement router and to ensure the physical wireless phone is plugged into the right socket on the router.

TalkTalk wanted a 24 month contract which would have included two price rises against a formula that will probably see a price rise of 13% each time. Cloudscape's requirement was for a 12 month contract with price increases simply passing on suppliers increases to Cloudscape as and when they happen.

My broken crystal ball suggests FTTP will be in the area in about 18 months time from an alt-net. Can't see native Openreach FTTP arriving any time soon. Unlikely to take-up FTTP as 55/19 with FTTC is currently quite adequate for his needs. Mind you, silly FTTP pricing might be tempting.

Well documented is the fact that a power failure knocks out everything and you sort of think about installing a UPS unit as insurance against that, but I reckon a simple solar panel installation might be a better way forward. Thoughts on this anyone?

Apologies for the misunderstanding.

The written confirmation of pricing from Cloudscape makes the statement that SoGea is available at the postcode of the installation. By implication this means that SoGea is not available everywhere.

SOGEA is available from any FTTC enabled cab (if there’s capacity as per usual)

I assumed that there would be no engineer attendance but it is no big deal if that happens as help will be needed to get mobile devices connected to the replacement router and to ensure the physical wireless phone is plugged into the right socket on the router.

Ah, so sounds like a managed install is what may have been sold.

The path of least resistance would be to migrate the broadband to a new provider on a SoGEA-based service that also offer their own in-house VoIP based service. The advantage here is that it’s a “one stop shop “. The disadvantage is that it’s less flexible, there’s more tie in to stay with that supplier as the voice + broadband are contractually bundled and it’s thus less flexible going forward and you may be limited to only using it on their own kit and only from within the premises. Also possibly not as cheap for calls and/or ‘line rental’ (ongoing voice service monthly charge) than with a dedicated, independent VoIP provider.

The other option is to split it / have just the broadband provision with new provider and go out to market with the voice/VoIP provision. So you’d need to sign up with a new VoIP provider first, check it all works, then port your existing number to them. However this would also initiate the cease of your existing broadband+phone service - so a better way of going about it is to:

1. Setup the new VoIP provider account and fully test / get whatever kit you may want (VoIP DECT base, ATA, etc etc)

2. Initiate the order to migrate the broadband to a new SoGEA-only service provider. No other voice add-on needed from new broadband provider. The broadband will switch seamlessly on the nominated day that the new provider will confirm.

3. Initiate a porting request with your new VoIP provider to move your existing landline number to them. This typically takes around 7 to 10 days.

Timing wise initiate steps 2 and 3 more or less in parallel to optimise timing and minimise in gap in service gap when getting the number to the new VoIP provider (though you will still have a voice service available by dint of 1 above), but with the new 31-day “right-to-port” safety net the number shouldn’t slip away even if the underlying service has been ceased by the broadband migration.

Edited by Pheasant (Sun 09-Jul-23 09:17:07)

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Well documented is the fact that a power failure knocks out everything and you sort of think about installing a UPS unit as insurance against that, but I reckon a simple solar panel installation might be a better way forward. Thoughts on this anyone?

. . .and a storage battery for when it is dark!

As a further cautionary tale about power cuts, the current overhead feed from the national power network to our village is undergoing maintenance so the power is currently being supplied by a network of hired-in generators. The generator supplying our house is hooked in to the step-down transformer that supplies our part of the village. This generator went down on Friday at 06:10; due to the complications brought about by the use of hired-in equipment and the power grid bureaucracy the generator was back and running by 14:30 but not re-connected to the supply network until 18:10, so a 12-hour outage. The remaining three-quarters of the village did not suffer any power outage. However, the generator that went down also supplies the AIO cabinet that brings FTTC to the whole village. There is no FTTP. The AIO cabinet went down at about 14:00 cutting off the internet to the whole village (although the PSTN service continued to work). The next village a mile up the road is currently on a different generator with a different OR cabinet and did not lose internet connection. The presumption is that the battery in the AIO cabinet serving our village only had a life of about 6 hours before giving up the ghost, although I haven't been able to get chapter and verse for that one. We are in a mobile free zone but as the PSTN service continued to work throughout the event there was always communication. Once PSTN is turned off the whole village will be without any means of communication if the step-down transformer to which the generator is currently attached goes down for maybe 6 hours or longer. There are plans to install a mobile phone mast in a location served by the same transformer; This will not supply any extra resilience unless the mast is provisioned with a larger battery than the norm or some sort of generating equipment.

I wonder how many more places are unaware that they suffer the same lack of resilience and possibility of total loss of communication.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

I wonder how many more places are unaware that they suffer the same lack of resilience and possibility of total loss of communication.

Yes Ofcom and the Govt should be doing more to make it clear. Maybe they will in 2025 before the PSTN is switched off.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Well documented is the fact that a power failure knocks out everything and you sort of think about installing a UPS unit as insurance against that, but I reckon a simple solar panel installation might be a better way forward. Thoughts on this anyone?

Possibly best explored in another thread, rather than as you say hijacking the OPs thread, but almost anything is possible at any price point / budget....

If you're hoping to stand this up for ages (like many hours or longer) the local cabinet if on FTTC/SoGEA probably doest have much more than 4 or 5 hours autonomy (at best if the batteries are fresh), ditto the local mast if going to mobile, so worth bearing in mind. There cheap solutions that will stand up an ONT and basic router for a few hours that wont cost more than £100

Just for the record, there are some people in the local government structure who do understand what is going on. The Northumberland County Councillor for the Rothbury ward (Cllr. Steven Bridgett - Ind) has been very proactive on behalf of his electors and has managed to get a condition put into the planning applications since Storm Arwen (which left parts of his ward outside any sort of communication systems for weeks rather than days) that any new mobile phone mast in his ward must have independent power available for at least 7 and up to 16 days.

It would be really good if similar conditions could be applied to both future and existing masts elsewhere in the country.

Perhaps the mods could split this diversion from the original discussion to another topic under a relevant board?

Probably best - as its nothing really to do with the OP's original question - although a vital topic in its own right.

Am i right in thinking once a stop sell is placed, its basically 12 month notice and after the 12 month no new services/upgrades over copper are possible?

See:

https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/the-al...

“Summary of UK 5 September 2023 stop sell rules:

— Stop sell applies at a premises level only where that premises has access to an available GEA-FTTP, SOGfast or SOGEA product

— From 5 September 2023:

- WLR and SMPF will not be available for new supply and CP1 to CP2 transfers. Modify orders to manage debt, 999 updates will be accepted
- Where a premises has access to GEA-FTTP, SOGfast, SOGEA, MPF and FTTC (MPF only), no new supply of other products, CP transfers, working line takeovers, addition of broadband to voice lines, bandwidth modify, start of stopped lines or migrations to non-Ultrafast products will be permitted
- MPF and SOTAP will be available for new supply where fibre is not enabled at the premises
- If premises get availability for GEA-FTTP, SOGfast or SOGEA post stop sell, SOTAP will be made unavailable for new supply immediately

— Consideration will also be given to investment policies in the copper network which could include VDSL cabinet capacity and repairs of the copper network”

The problem is Openreach SoGfast is available but many ISPs & wholesales are very lazy and not bother using SoGfast (have to use WLR with line rental included for any Gfast order) but only selling SOGEA for FTTC.

Edited by adslmax (Tue 11-Jul-23 20:35:05)

In reply to a post by adslmax:

The problem is Openreach SoGfast is available but many ISPs & wholesales are very lazy and not bother using SoGfast (have to use WLR with line rental included for any Gfast order) but only selling SOGEA for FTTC.

The only problem is that it limits your choice of G.Fast providers - but then that choice is already very limited, as many have bailed anyway.

Those that remain will have to choose whether to update their systems to support SOGfast, or to bail as well.

Why did they bail? Because G.Fast is a product which proved to be unreliable for many users, and they don't want the headache of dealing with the support and complaints.

I guess that at least BT Retail would continue to sell it, since they're in the same group as Openreach.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I guess that at least BT Retail would continue to sell it, since they're in the same group as Openreach.

Nope, BT not selling Gfast for SoGfast. Must come with WLR line rental for any Gfast order. £45.99 per month for 12 months with line including for 160/30 or £55.99 per month for 12 months with line including for 330/50.

G.fast 12 months https://i.ibb.co/7gwwxJp/Screenshot-1.png
G.fast 24 months https://i.ibb.co/WDL8FwM/Screenshot.png

Edited by adslmax (Thu 13-Jul-23 11:09:14)

That doesn't necessarily mean it's WLR: it could come with Digital Voice.

Anyway, what's the problem? BT are selling G.Fast, and most likely will continue to sell it beyond September 5th. Whether they've already updated their systems to SOGfast, or still have work to do, is an internal matter for them.

BT famously don't reveal the underlying technology to consumers. For a long while, "Fibre Essentials" was FTTC, even if your property had FTTP available, but "Fibre 1" was FTTP. The only way you could tell the difference was via the predicted speeds.