SOGEA and filters

I was just pondering if I am switched to SOGEA so there is no voice on the line do I need to keep the filter on the NTE5 or can I remove the filter and refit the old voice bottom plate of the NTE5 which I have kept?

Seems to me that with no voice on the line I don't need the filter and reverting to the original significantly lower profile plain NTE5 would be preferable. Part of me also thinks that a filter must have a non-zero impact on the xDSL signal so getting rid of it is no bad thing?

With no phones plugged in you don't need a filter. The only benefit of a filter would be converting a phone socket to a data socket.

So, if you put the old voice plate on how are you planning to plug the router into it?

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

Part of me also thinks that a filter must have a non-zero impact on the xDSL signal so getting rid of it is no bad thing?

The filter does nothing to the DSL port otherwise it wouldn't work. it filters the DSL signal FROM the voice port. Without a filter you wouldn't have an RJ11 socket, so you would need a custom RJ11 to BT-jack cable. I wouldn't say its worth the hassle.

I know Sky now send out PSTN jack to RJ11 cables with their routers for SOGEA provides, (an RJ11 to RJ11 lead also) ….so I dare say they can be easily picked up .

One of these into the NTE restored to its original faceplate would work a treat.

You don't need a micro filter. What you need is simply an NTE5C Master Socket like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/NTE5C-OpenReach-Telephone-M...
This basically has an inbuilt filter that rids the need of an additional micro filter.

However, the telephone port is useless as it will not return any dial tone on SOGEA. So, what I have is basically BT FTTC with Digital Voice service. Telephone gets plugged into the router or alternatively you use the BT Advanced Digital Home Phone with Alexa built-in and register it with the router once by pressing WPS button on the router to register it.

Phone calls work that way. Your connection will be naturally more reliable and maybe gain a few megs more as the voice dial tone removal in Digital Voice eliminates any possible noise interference's caused by the phone line. If you've ever had connection drop outs when picking up the phone when it was ringing on Analog Voice you'll no longer suffer from this problem under Digital Voice.

Seems like the OP has an older type of NTE5 currently fitted with a Pressac type combined ADSL RJ11 socket and filtered phone socket lower plate that replaces the standard, phone socket only, lower plate. Perhaps he finds the bulk of the ADSL plate to be objectionable and wishes to use the standard phone socket only lower plate that he has kept. Fitting a new NTE5C would be quite unnecessary if that is the case. As has been stated the phone socket only lower plate together with a PSTN jack to RJ11 cable would be fine for SOGEA.

Your connection will be naturally more reliable and maybe gain a few megs more as the voice dial tone removal in Digital Voice eliminates any possible noise interference's caused by the phone line. If you've ever had connection drop outs when picking up the phone when it was ringing on Analog Voice you'll no longer suffer from this problem under Digital Voice

This is not correct.

The noise on a noisy line (PSTN) fault is nearly always due to a line fault, most commonly an HR. The loss of the dialling tone from the exchange won’t stop the HR affecting the DSL signal down the pair. Just as it won’t make the service any faster.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

You don't need a micro filter. What you need is simply an NTE5C Master Socket like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/NTE5C-OpenReach-Telephone-M...
This basically has an inbuilt filter that rids the need of an additional micro filter.

errm i'm sure you may wish to revise that statement.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Phone calls work that way. Your connection will be naturally more reliable and maybe gain a few megs more as the voice dial tone removal in Digital Voice eliminates any possible noise interference's caused by the phone line. If you've ever had connection drop outs when picking up the phone when it was ringing on Analog Voice you'll no longer suffer from this problem under Digital Voice.

No you won't gain a few megs, Theres nothing extra gained from the analog phone portion being removed. The only way you'd gain anything is if the frequencies were re-assigned for xDSL!. And that aint gonna happen. You can still have drop outs on DV, due to bandwidth issues.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I know Sky now send out PSTN jack to RJ11 cables with their routers for SOGEA provides, (an RJ11 to RJ11 lead also) ….so I dare say they can be easily picked up .

Its the same cable dialup modems used so should be pretty easy to find.

Yep, if you want to get anal about it, one with only the two middle contacts terminated in each connector is microscopically ’better’ than with all four connected … this being observed from ADSL days, so less important with so much more bandwidth squirted down it.

In reply to a post by alexatkin:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I know Sky now send out PSTN jack to RJ11 cables with their routers for SOGEA provides, (an RJ11 to RJ11 lead also) ….so I dare say they can be easily picked up .

Its the same cable dialup modems used so should be pretty easy to find.

Or a BT Plug to RJ11 Female Socket Converter if one wished to use an existing good quality RJ11 cable, although in the OP's case that might not be a desirable connection at the NTE5 end.

One of these will do …. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/371451457072?mkcid=16&mke...

Chinese flat cable, various lengths, 2pin cross wired, 4pin cross and straight wired

Yeah, but you get the gist. 😁

Just out of interest: would a fault at the exchange causing an xDSL drop when the phone rings be initially eliminated with a switch from PSTN to VoIP or SOGEA, assuming the E-Side pairs are still connected? Is there still a soft dial tone (or something) on the analogue line?

Certainly the phone ringing issue was cured for me when I moved from WBC to SMPF yet retained WLR voice.

That’s a tricky one …. was this VDSL ?

If it was VDSL, it really ought not to be affected by an exchange fault, the splitter in the DSLAM stopping anything E side affecting after the DSLAM.

There used to be, commonly, soft dial tone on lines after conversion to SOGEA … but then the number couldn’t be rung, it being out of service, so an exchange equipment cause looks unlikely. For quite some time now, E sides are now disconnected during a cabinet visit for provision or repair.

However, if this was an ADSL service before and after the switch … then the cause was most likely faulty BTw ADSL ties.

In my case it was an ADSL fault that a SFI couldn't fix on the day - but since there is potentially a soft dial tone with SOGEA I was wondering if a noise event occurred, due to an exchange fault, this could cause a VDSL line to drop.

Thanks for the reply and the detailed explanation.

In reply to a post by Taras:

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Phone calls work that way. Your connection will be naturally more reliable and maybe gain a few megs more as the voice dial tone removal in Digital Voice eliminates any possible noise interference's caused by the phone line. If you've ever had connection drop outs when picking up the phone when it was ringing on Analog Voice you'll no longer suffer from this problem under Digital Voice.

No you won't gain a few megs, Theres nothing extra gained from the analog phone portion being removed. The only way you'd gain anything is if the frequencies were re-assigned for xDSL!. And that aint gonna happen. You can still have drop outs on DV, due to bandwidth issues.

I'm not saying that Analog Voice removal will help gain more speed. What I'm saying is that the migration to Digital Voice means that if you've ever had problems with connection dropping out when picking up your phone that problem is bound to go away with DV!

If you look at this article https://telecomgreen.co.uk/home-phone-repair/bt-open...
There is already evidence that removing the orange ring wire helps improve connection stability. There's less noise on the line.
https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm

Why remove the ring wire?

Unfortunately, the ring wire can also act as an antenna, picking up interference from other electrical equipment in and around the house.

It is often found that disconnecting the ring wire improves the stability of a connection, sometimes considerably, especially on "star" wired telephone systems.

If the connection drops out due to noise margin issues DLM kicks in and lowers your sync speeds! But if your connection is stable at higher sync speeds then DLM does not reduce your speeds.

Now, ever since migrating to FTTC from ADSL EO Line in October 2019 my connection improved immediately and my random drop outs stopped.
My first FTTC package was with TalkTalk + Analog in February 2020. Picking up the phone would sometimes cause drop outs, not always but sometimes. NTE5C Master Socket improved my SNR as I was making comparisons with it and without it.

2 years later I switched to BT FTTC+DV. I noticed how I'm no longer dropping out as my sole problem was related to the analog phone!

I'm still syncing at Downstream sync speed: 79.999 Mbps Upstream sync speed: 19.999 Mbps
No drop outs and stable sync. But with analog when picking up the phone while it was ringing will result in my internet dropping out and my connection sync speeds reducing! I then had to wait for several days before my sync speed returned back to normal. But the phone was the culprit for this.

This is a similar experience to what you'd get with Dial-Up. If you are old enough and ever remembered using Dial-Up you'll know that you can't use Dial-Up internet and at the same time use the phone. Your connection will totally cease to function until you hang up the phone. This is not line fault related, this is something everyone experienced.

Now you could argue in my case there must have been a line fault somewhere. But with FTTC analog phone pick ups were my only problems with drop outs. I don't have any other drop outs like with ADSL. If I had, I would've been complaining here on these forums for support.

But my connection is super stable last 2 years, so much that I didn't rush to switch to Community Fibre yet! I'm pretty happy with my BT FTTC+Digital Voice service. If I switch to FTTP that will be mostly for higher speeds.

I'm not saying that Analog Voice removal will help gain more speed

Yeah, you did say that.

Your connection will be naturally more reliable and maybe gain a few megs more as the voice dial tone removal in Digital Voice

Disconnection of the bell wire on internal wiring has nothing to do with what you are claiming.

Your line has been more stable because the greatly increased bandwidth it now has comes a shorter distance than your old ADSL service.

This is a similar experience to what you'd get with Dial-Up. If you are old enough and ever remembered using Dial-Up you'll know that you can't use Dial-Up internet and at the same time use the phone. Your connection will totally cease to function until you hang up the phone. This is not line fault related, this is something everyone experienced.

Not similar in the slightest. Dial-up used audible frequencies and therefore the same sound spectrum as voice - the 2 could not share the same audible frequencies and not interfere with each other. DSL on the other hand uses the frequencies not needed by human conversation and therefore the 2 can coexist. The problems with lines dropping with calls coming in on DSL were due to faults not the basic technology.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Your connection will be naturally more reliable and maybe gain a few megs more as the voice dial tone removal in Digital Voice eliminates any possible noise interference's caused by the phone line.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

I'm not saying that Analog Voice removal will help gain more speed.

Lets be honest when making an incorrect comment rather than trying to pretend it never happened.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

'm not saying that Analog Voice removal will help gain more speed. What I'm saying is that the migration to Digital Voice means that if you've ever had problems with connection dropping out when picking up your phone that problem is bound to go away with DV!

If you look at this article https://telecomgreen.co.uk/home-phone-repair/bt-open...
There is already evidence that removing the orange ring wire helps improve connection stability. There's less noise on the line.
https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm

Why remove the ring wire?

Unfortunately, the ring wire can also act as an antenna, picking up interference from other electrical equipment in and around the house.

It is often found that disconnecting the ring wire improves the stability of a connection, sometimes considerably, especially on "star" wired telephone systems.

If the connection drops out due to noise margin issues DLM kicks in and lowers your sync speeds! But if your connection is stable at higher sync speeds then DLM does not reduce your speeds.

Bell wire noise has been known to the general public (us - not joe public 😂) since adsl days its not something that is unknown, and its different to what you have said.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Now, ever since migrating to FTTC from ADSL EO Line in October 2019 my connection improved immediately and my random drop outs stopped.
My first FTTC package was with TalkTalk + Analog in February 2020. Picking up the phone would sometimes cause drop outs, not always but sometimes. NTE5C Master Socket improved my SNR as I was making comparisons with it and without it.

2 years later I switched to BT FTTC+DV. I noticed how I'm no longer dropping out as my sole problem was related to the analog phone!

So there is a fault on your line/phone system and you are conflating.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

I'm still syncing at Downstream sync speed: 79.999 Mbps Upstream sync speed: 19.999 Mbps
No drop outs and stable sync. But with analog when picking up the phone while it was ringing will result in my internet dropping out and my connection sync speeds reducing! I then had to wait for several days before my sync speed returned back to normal. But the phone was the culprit for this.

I'm confused, I never had this issue, when I had adsl, 2 and 2+ and then vdsl2 i never had an issue with dialing out a number. Your sync speed returning back to normal was dlm management doing its thing.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

This is a similar experience to what you'd get with Dial-Up. If you are old enough and ever remembered using Dial-Up you'll know that you can't use Dial-Up internet and at the same time use the phone. Your connection will totally cease to function until you hang up the phone. This is not line fault related, this is something everyone experienced.

Errr dial up used the same frequency as voice and it would also dial a number. xDSL is always on and no dialed number. You are conflating a dialed number with everything else you have said.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Now you could argue in my case there must have been a line fault somewhere.

Yes a strong argument

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

But with FTTC analog phone pick ups were my only problems with drop outs. I don't have any other drop outs like with ADSL. If I had, I would've been complaining here on these forums for support.

Both are xDSL

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

But my connection is super stable last 2 years, so much that I didn't rush to switch to Community Fibre yet! I'm pretty happy with my BT FTTC+Digital Voice service. If I switch to FTTP that will be mostly for higher speeds.

I'm happy that you are happy now, i think thats what everyone who helps here wants; ie the poster who has a problem with internet gets it resolved.

I really don't care if somebody makes a mistake in their understanding, its the only way we learn and also its searchable so if another person believes cat5e can't do 10gbits/s they can get upto date info that infact they can.. So its worth having these discussions

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

But my connection is super stable last 2 years, so much that I didn't rush to switch to Community Fibre yet! I'm pretty happy with my BT FTTC+Digital Voice service. If I switch to FTTP that will be mostly for higher speeds.

Just to add, if I'm reading you posts correctly, historically you had an unresolved line fault even with VDSL + PSTN voice (which was no longer an apparent issue when you switched to VoIP) in which case I think it would be prudent to go for FTTP, at some point, rather than rely upon continued stability with the copper connection to the cabinet. Potentially issues with the line could re-emerge even though it has been OK for 2 years.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

The filter does nothing to the DSL port otherwise it wouldn't work. it filters the DSL signal FROM the voice port. Without a filter you wouldn't have an RJ11 socket, so you would need a custom RJ11 to BT-jack cable. I wouldn't say its worth the hassle.

May I suggest that you go back to school and learn about electrical circuit theory? Any filter put in a circuit negatively impacts that circuit even the "unfiltered" portion. Might be by a very small amount but it does.

I would not actually need anything custom as the VDSL modem is connected to an RJ11 socket in a patch panel hardwired into the back of the NTE5 3m away.

Haven't you just answered your own question?

Well at least someone gets it. Why have something sticking 35mm out the wall which for probably historical reasons that predate my purchase of the property which is half way up the stairs. That's where the telephone line comes in. The actual VDSL modem is connected to a hardwired extension about 3m away in an RJ11 keystone jack, with the telephone lines into three Cat5e RJ45 keystones. Currently, telephone extensions are jumpered to the Cat6a structured wiring with adaptors at the outlets. There is 9U of rack space with, dedicated filtered mains, a large UPS a couple of servers and a thermostatically controlled fan to exhaust air if it gets too hot in the summer.

So reverting to an old style NTE5 sans any filters would be aesthetically more pleasing and less likely to get whacked. Just re-terminate the extension into the faceplate leaving the POTS lines unconnected as they would become surplus to requirements.

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

So reverting to an old style NTE5 sans any filters would be aesthetically more pleasing and less likely to get whacked. Just re-terminate the extension into the faceplate leaving the POTS lines unconnected as they would become surplus to requirements.

Sounds good, the "data extension" could still be isolated and the test socket would still be accessible. If unused the BT phone socket on the standard lower plate would be unfiltered but that would be irrelevant with SOGEA.

Edited by 4M2 (Sat 18-May-24 19:31:49)