Incorrect Status openreach system

Hi all, newbie here, so apologies if this goes in the wrong place.

I am trying to get Sky broadband set up at my new house and it's been a nightmare. It's boiled down to this, Openreach say that we have Fibre to the premises, which is not true, we have it to the cabinet. I cannot get an order for copper broadband raised as OR cancel it each time saying it has to be full fibre to the house. That would require dig work on a private road and the permission of 5 houses and a developer, which would take for ever if at all.

How do I go about getting the OR database updated to reflect the current situation rather than FTTP? I am now 4 weeks without Broadband and the impact is considerable. Virgin is not available. Any advice welcome. thx GJ

Have you tried placing the order for FTTP? If it can't be provided then that should then fail to be placed and fall you back to FTTC hopefully.

Do you know that it means digging on a private road, or are you assuming it means that? How does your copper cable get to you?

So i ordered full fibre to begin with and OR accepted it and then asked for permission to dig.

Presumably you have an existing copper phone line what does the BT checker say for your phone number?
BT Checker

Is WBC FTTP showing as available, it shouldn't be if a significant amount of digging is needed. Is there any text about FTTP below the speed estimates,.

I suspect you are in a FTTP priority exchange area but Openreach are assuming FTTP is available when it isn't, so you should be able to order a copper line SOGEA service.(FTTC with no phone service)

I agree it sounds like the OP is in a stop/sell exchange area …

He posted

So i ordered full fibre to begin with and OR accepted it and then asked for permission to dig.

That says to me it IS available … the question should be, what was the PTD for ? It might just be for the OP’s own property ?

Whos land what the PTD for? Are you sure they weren't asking to dig your garden or similar?

How likely is it that you can make a mistake and then ask for forgiveness if they dig the road that technically isn't yours?

there is about 65 metres from the cabinet to a small close of 5 houses, none of whom yet have fibre to the premises. the PTD would be to dig through a small plot of council owned land and a private road to get to my/our properties (at least that's how Sky described it, the PTD form says very little). it may be that eventually the council and developer would give permission, I am just looking to get something switched on until that time.

i've just moved in and the owner before me had a copper service - i have no idea what the number is/was.

no text below WBC FTTP - just says downstream up to 1000 available. SOGEA is showing available too.

FTTP Priority exchange shows as 'N'

Have you tried anybody other than Sky? This sounds like they aren't being completely honest with you and their own systems are changing orders to FTTP where they think it exists.

So what service IS there ? Are these new builds, and the developers have sold you short ?

I reckon if you can order FTTP, do. Let the suppliers battle it out to provide it. In the meantime …. A router with an ‘eat all you want’ data sim in it ?

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

So what service IS there ? Are these new builds, and the developers have sold you short ?

I reckon if you can order FTTP, do. Let the suppliers battle it out to provide it. In the meantime …. A router with an ‘eat all you want’ data sim in it ?

if the op has the signal get the Three 4g hub via ebay (which will be unlocked) and a 30 day sim once, fixed line internet is ready - re-ebay

Noting that ISP are heavily incentivised by Openreach to provision in FTTP rather than FTTC/ADSL where that is available. So if they think FTTP is available they are going to go FTTP.

On the back of what Sky said did you then cancel the FTTP order? Just to add some clarity, the fibre cable that the Openreach engineers come and install once the property has been enabled doesn't get run all the way back to the cabinet, it normally goes to a connectorised block terminal which is usually up a pole or in a joint box. How does your copper service get provided (underground or overhead)? On the DSL check down the bottom there will be a line that starts "Our records show the following FTTP network service information for these premises:-" what does that say? If you could also state the exchange area you're in this may help people understand whats going on.

Edited by PCJM40 (Tue 18-Jun-24 16:17:13)

it shows Single Dwelling Unit Residential UG congested duct.

Does that help to know whether there is considerable dig work or not?

In reply to a post by gothamjamie76:

it shows Single Dwelling Unit Residential UG congested duct.

Does that help to know whether there is considerable dig work or not?

My takeaway on that is that there is an existing wayleave in place so the PTD should be a formality to expand capacity in the ducting, I would suggest you stick with an FTTP order and as suggested by Zarjaz and Taras get yourself a temporary 4G router.

PS - If there has been no comment from Sky about excessive charges then I don't think it would be a massive job as Sky do like passing on the full excess charges on these sorts of jobs.

Edited by PCJM40 (Wed 19-Jun-24 10:02:34)

is it kc1 or kc2 Assured ?

As its sky, it is a two stage install. If there a congested duct, that will[should] be cleared without digging.

In reply to a post by Taras:

If there a congested duct, that will[should] be cleared without digging.

It said congested so I read that their may be no spare capacity in the duct meaning they need to dig to increase capacity.

In reply to a post by PCJM40:

In reply to a post by Taras:

If there a congested duct, that will[should] be cleared without digging.

It said congested so I read that their may be no spare capacity in the duct meaning they need to dig to increase capacity.

i read it as physically congested, either debris or cables.. If it was no sapre capacity at the cbt it would say no spare ports .

If there's a duct then there is a wayleave for that duct to be there, asking nicely to dig is just a formality and Openreach could force the issue if they wanted to.

In reply to a post by Taras:

In reply to a post by PCJM40:

It said congested so I read that their may be no spare capacity in the duct meaning they need to dig to increase capacity.

i read it as physically congested, either debris or cables.. If it was no sapre capacity at the cbt it would say no spare ports .

Who said anything about CBT capacity??? see blue bold from me

PS - they have requested a PTD for a reason and suggesting to the OP that they can resolve without digging like you have is extremely optimistic.

Edited by PCJM40 (Wed 19-Jun-24 12:15:42)

In reply to a post by gothamjamie76:

It's boiled down to this, Openreach say that we have Fibre to the premises, which is not true

If the wholesale checker says WBC FTTP is available, which means Sky are also happy to take your order, then you should simply order it.

In my experience, if the Openreach database says it's available to order, they will jump through hoops to complete the installation: i.e. it's rare that they will cancel the order because it's undeliverable, although that does sometimes happen.

Example in point: I had FTTPoD installed in 2019. As part of that installation, they marked three other properties in my road as having FTTP available. But two of them were not my immediate neighbours, and one didn't even have any ducting from the footway box outside my house.

Both have placed orders - one via Vodafone and one via Plusnet, who said at contract renewal time that they should upgrade to FTTP, because database says it was available.

In the end, Openreach completed the installations, actually digging up the footway to install new ducting to one of the properties. It took several months, but they *did* get their FTTP service in the end, for free (which I don't mind at all: very happy for others to get some benefit from my FTTPoD).

The rest of the street still don't have FTTP, and our exchange area was only added into the FTTP rollout plans in the last batch announced a few weeks ago.

Anyway: just order FTTP and be done with it. Given that it could take several months, your options for service in the mean time would be:

1. Take FTTC from a provider who offers short contracts, like Aquiss. (You can take a 1-month contract, although because of the setup fee if you end up taking it for more than 6 months it would be cheaper to take 12). Make this a completely separate order from your FTTP.

Aquiss are also clueful and will be able to order FTTC even at a property where FTTP is available (as long as you're not in a stop sell area). Other clueful providers are available.

2. Use a 4G/5G router if you have decent enough coverage

3. Starlink.

The OP said when Sky raised a FTTC installation request its was cancelled by Openreach, this is why I asked for the exchange area so one of us could confirm if they are in a Stop Sell area.

Congested duct is something of a guess at the time the area survey was done by the surveyor , individual ducts are not checked and proved to be congested or clear , the note only refers to the duct from the joint box to the house wall , this jointbox is likely to be located in the footpath fairly close by outside the property.

In an area that is ducted ( housing built from the start of the 1990’s and onwards ) if the duct entry at the dwelling can be seen , it’s assumed that it will be serviceable and the survey note is along the lines of ‘served by 2.5inch duct 56’ it can be something as simple as the duct entry cannot be easily seen from the footpath ( perhaps a fence has been built and the duct entry can no longer be seen ) that is enough for the survey to be recorded as ‘congested duct ‘ as well as more obvious issues like the duct is now covered by an imprinted concrete driveway surface.

This survey note isn’t stating that there is definitely a problem, the duct is really no more or less likely to be serviceable than surveys stating 2.5 inch D56 , , but congested duct surveys notes should result in two stage installation, the viability of the duct confirmed before the installation date on the first stage visit , obviously if it’s worst case scenario and it is not serviceable steps are taken to resolve that , or if necessary because the consumer objects to any excavation, the order can be cancelled.

If the OP ordered with Sky ( FTTP) and was asked to sign a PTD , that can only be for what’s considered to be within the customers own curtilage, so either the duct was blocked and the blockage assessed to be under the front garden , or the PTD ( permission to dig ) is just in case excavation is needed , the excavation can only be within the customer’s curtilage as they can’t provide consent for anywhere else but this, the CBT is likely to be in the same jointbox that has the duct that ‘goes’ to the customers house wall .

The OP in effect is trying to change the correct Openreach record that FTTP is available to order and get it changed ( and make it incorrect ) to aid ordering FTTC , that won’t happen, it appears there is no error with the existing OR designation, although the order journey to get FTTP may be longer and a little more convoluted than it would be with FTTC , that isn’t reason to state that FTTP isn’t available, all the evidence suggests it is

Edited by Iniltous (Thu 20-Jun-24 15:21:03)

Wouldn't disagree with anything you said.

The openreach system shows the correct information there is a CBT close to your house that can be used to supply you with FTTP I would order and when they request a PTD enquire what that entails they will do a survey. then you can either accept the PTD or say you want SOGEA as you dont want your newly concreted drive decimating

The no spare ports on the checker is nothing to do with the CBT
its an indication of what ONT is active in the premises
most will be 1 port and will say no ports available.
In MDUs where the ONT is multiport it will say ports available.

In reply to a post by Taras:

i read it as physically congested, either debris or cables.. If it was no sapre capacity at the cbt it would say no spare ports .

No, it'd say this, and as far as I know even this is only shown where there's an existing ONT.

Network is at capacity so a new ONT cannot be ordered.

In reply to a post by pyarwood:

In MDUs where the ONT is multiport it will say ports available.

MDU's have nothing to do with multi port ONT's. They also get single port ONT's like everyone else.

Every home/flat/apartment gets their own ONT on the Openreach network. They never ever share a multi port ONT between multiple dwellings in an MDU.

I agree most MDUs would get a seperate ONT but openreach can supply a multiport ONT which is what they line refers to and NOT CBT capacity.

In reply to a post by pyarwood:

I agree most MDUs would get a seperate ONT but openreach can supply a multiport ONT which is what they line refers to and NOT CBT capacity.

In other words, individual dwellings *could* have their own multiport ONTs. (For example, if they ordered two services at the same location, e.g. one for home and one for business use) It's uncommon.

Under no circumstances I'm aware of would a single multiport ONT in Openreach's network be used to serve multiple premises within an MDU.

Exactly, it wouldn't happen as it would be a support nightmare, you can't have the device that is part of the ISPs first-line checks locked away in a landlord's utility cupboard.

Would be nice if it exposed status information on a VLAN over SNMP or similar to the router so that information like the optical network being down or the ONT not authorised could be passed on, but I guess this is the world of cost engineering.

Edited by jpm (Tue 25-Jun-24 20:08:23)