So....

The plan from the nice young lady is:

- Reset Speedtouch to factory defaults (hardware reset). Something I did not do when I moved to ADSL2+ and Newnet CS said that this is usually recommended and re-configure from scratch. Now done (see stats below).

- Get BT to test the line (but don't use the word "broadband when talking to them). Plug old fashioned phone via dangly filter into test socket behind removable faceplate. See what they say.

- Then phone Newnet back for another chat.

While chatting to the CS rep. she did comment about some sort of "super profiling" (must admit she starting loosing me at this point) having been applied to the line. And expressed surprise that this was the case, as usually they have to request it. Don't have a clue what this was about. Though I've worked in IT for some 35 years as a programmer (now retired) I'm the first to admit that I'm no networking expert. I was just a plain old COBOL programmer, I knew where I was in those days!. Bring back punched cards and paper tape, that's what I say!

Newnet rep. did get me back onto ADSL2+ but SNRM targets obviously still high. And she commented that they can get these reset depending on how things progress.

Depending on the outcome tomorrow. Other options are:

- Try another modem/router. The TP-link TD-W8960N isn't too expensive and looks to have a Broadcom chipset in the modem (people keep banging on about this on long lines).
- Try another filtered faceplate (ADSLNation XTF-85). But try direct into the master socket via a dangly filter first.

Final option... shoot myself. Still just about retaining my sense of humour.


Uptime: 0 days, 2:35:06
Modulation: G.992.5 Annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,156 / 6,680
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [KB/MB]: 880.00 / 2.73
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.5 / 0.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 15.0 / 37.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 6.0 / 15.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / µ
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 11 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 1,615
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 1 / 14
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 1 / 11

PS. By all accounts the line drops this afternoon / early evening were due to their testing.

I expect the term "Super-profiling" is referring to the sort of thing I pointed out. That on a line connected to WBC, ie a 21CN ADSL2+ capable line, that as well as playing with interleaving, noise margin and IP Profile it can also impose further controls.

It can certainly put in place "banded profiles", which restrict the maximum speed it is allowed to connect at, (the higher the speed the less stable any line becomes), and by the look of it can also force it down to ADSL2 or ADSL. From our perspective we normally expect ADSL2 to be imposed from our end, and if it just appears by itself to be the result of bad noise at connection time, but who knows!

It looks like Newnet are taking a constructive approach, so that's good .

You mentioned the 7800 being affected by noise from a plasma TV.

The noise will still be present with other routers, and the router may simply be better at not using the affected frequencies, hence the lowish sync speed.

You now appear to have a 15dB target margin, i.e. the result of the DLM (which runs forever) feeling you have an unstable line, and forcing speed down to make it stable.

If you have the plasma TV and as many other electrical devices turned off and unplugged are the stats any better?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

You mentioned the 7800 being affected by noise from a plasma TV.

The noise will still be present with other routers, and the router may simply be better at not using the affected frequencies, hence the lowish sync speed.

You now appear to have a 15dB target margin, i.e. the result of the DLM (which runs forever) feeling you have an unstable line, and forcing speed down to make it stable.

If you have the plasma TV and as many other electrical devices turned off and unplugged are the stats any better?

Thanks once again for your input.

I have a suspicion that the Plasma TV issue is probably a bit of a red herring. When it's on, even the Speedtouch seems to notice it, but not as much as the Billion. Devices on/off (IE. TV, microwave etc.) don't seem to make a huge difference either way. It's not like the line drops, or there appears to be serious erros appearing (except with the Billion and I don't have that any more).

The thing that keeps bugging me, is that all was fine for the first few days. Decent 11Mbps sync, great real world download speeds and low (ish) errors being recorded. And this was on the trusty Speedtouch 585v6.

Stats currently looking like:

Uptime: 0 days, 16:39:31
Modulation: G.992.5 Annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,156 / 6,680
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 13.39 / 190.16
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.5 / 0.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 15.0 / 37.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 5.5 / 15.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / µ
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 26 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 3,837
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 41
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 34


I don't know what you think. But that (after a hardware factory reset / reconfigure last night) doesn't look too bad to me. Obviously still stuck on a 15 dB downward SNRM at the moment. According to Routerstats, the down SNRM is a straight line graph at 15dB. Hardly any movement even during "TV time" last night. I suppose you have to expect a few errors being logged on what is probably approaching a 3 km line once all the twists and turns it probably makes before it reaches the exchange (samknows says 2.6km I seem to remember).

Next step is to switch off / disconnect everything and get BT to test the phone line (as per ISP request). Then everything back up and yet another call to Newnet to see what it looks like now. And maybe depending on what they say, a request to get my SNRM re-set.

TBC...... keep smiling as they say.

Edited by MrBeeline (Tue 21-Feb-12 11:21:41)

11Meg is inline with you having a 6dB target noise margin, the automatic systems have seen the disconnects, reboots and errors as a sign of instability, and raised the target noise margin twice.

This lowers the sync speed, to where you are now. If you are still getting errors then it is a case of sorting those out.

NOTE: Noise does not always cause a resync, the effect can be very subtle. Or put it another way the Billion was showing you more the real state of affairs, rather than having any problems.

NOTE: if you call BT to test the line, they only test for voice based tests. Any DSL testing MUST be requested via NewNet

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

11Meg is inline with you having a 6dB target noise margin, the automatic systems have seen the disconnects, reboots and errors as a sign of instability, and raised the target noise margin twice.

This lowers the sync speed, to where you are now. If you are still getting errors then it is a case of sorting those out.

NOTE: Noise does not always cause a resync, the effect can be very subtle. Or put it another way the Billion was showing you more the real state of affairs, rather than having any problems.

NOTE: if you call BT to test the line, they only test for voice based tests. Any DSL testing MUST be requested via NewNet

Yes, I hear what you are saying and appreciate this. Though the only actual disconnections that I've experienced. Have been either during Newnet testing. Or when the exchange re-sync'd to change things.

And the start of all this was when after 3 days, the exchange re-sync's me and takes Interleaving off!! The crazy thing being really, that if the exchange thinks my line is good enough to be on FAST path... doesn't that sort of imply that my line is pretty reasonable!?

Just got BT to test line (telephy side only as you say) and surprise, surprise, no fault found. Not surprised really, as the phone line has never been clearer than it is now. The BT quiet test, is just that... quiet..

Once back OL, I phoned Newnet again and told them my "progress" and they checked the last 20+ hours and said "line looks fine to us"... we just can't understand what's going on. You should be capable of much better than this. So they are going to speak to BT (for what good that will do) but I suspect the next option will be to restart the 10 days "stabilisation period" and see what happens there.

As to:

"Or put it another way the Billion was showing you more the real state of affairs, rather than having any problems"

That is one concern of mine to! Only answer I suspect, would be to try yet another router at some point and see what it looks like IE. is it reporting more like the Speedtouch, or the Billion.

Looks like a long haul....

Edited by MrBeeline (Tue 21-Feb-12 13:05:12)

RobertoS

Hello yet again...

The thing they were talking about, is something they call "super stable". It appears to allow them a fair degree of margin themselves (IE. the ISP) to fiddle with things. Again this part of the conversation went "whoosh" over my head.

Question... you being the "ring wire expert". When I had my ADSLnation faceplate off (for BT line test), I noticed that I have THREE wires connected to the filtered extension connections on the back of the plate (wires 2, 3 & 5). from what I understand, wire 3 is the "ring wire". While the ADSLnation faceplate is supposed to filter this. Is it worth actually disconnecting this? This extension does go into the room where the Plasma TV is! There is both a phone in this room and it's also connected to my SKY+ HD box.

Edited by MrBeeline (Tue 21-Feb-12 13:16:28)

The XTE-2005 does filter the ring wire so should be OK. But filters can fail. I see no harm in removing it unless you have one of the rare phones that need it.

The main filter sounds to be OK else you would have chaos.

I would also try putting an additional filter on the Sky box just for a while. Modern ones like that should be OK, but you never know.

Also if any signal cables are running neatly alongside power cables that can be dodgy.

Super stable is I think just BT speak for an absurdly high target noise margin.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 21-Feb-12 13:36:11)

Thanks RobertoS..

I've now removed ring wire completely. Put extra filters on both SKY box and phone in that room (to be sure, to be sure). Re-routed the phone extension cable in that room to be as far away from the Plasma TV and power cables as possible. I've also gone "ferrite core mad" and stuck them on everything I can behind the TV (as I have an extensive home cinema / AV set up).

My fictitious "training period" (dont quite know what to make of this... even having read what you pointed me to before) has "supposedly" been re-started!?!?! But currently though back on ADSL2+, I'm still stuck on a 15dB rx SNRM. So until this comes down, I can't see there being any increase in my sync speed. Now I wonder after 10 days.... am I going to be in the same boat. My guess is "yes".

At the moment, rx SNRM rock solid and very few errors being logged by my router (if I can believe it of course!).

TBC as they say. Thanks for your input up to now.

Edited by MrBeeline (Wed 22-Feb-12 16:09:28)

It is very probable that if your noise margin immediately after a reconnection is still ~15dB that someone is telling porkies.

It would be reset to 6dB on restart of a 10-day training.

They should be able to reset it to 6dB anyway, without doing a full 10-day trip.

Is it possible they have requested a reset/retrain, and that hasn't gone through yet?