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Standard User professor973
(committed) Wed 08-May-13 13:21:50
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Re: Daft question re IPv6


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the replies chaps. Just one more query. Is IPv6 something that has to be requested from an ISP that supplies it and is there a charge, or is it just shoved down the pipes as stadard, as my capable routers here don't cut the mustard on test sites.

The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits.
http://speedtest.net/result/2690543838.png

Edited by professor973 (Wed 08-May-13 13:22:41)

Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Wed 08-May-13 13:40:19
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Re: Daft question re IPv6


[re: professor973] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by professor973:
Thanks for the replies chaps. Just one more query. Is IPv6 something that has to be requested from an ISP that supplies it and is there a charge, or is it just shoved down the pipes as stadard
Depends on the ISP. It might require an email to Support to activate it on your connection but I wouldn't expect it to be chargeable. I'd run a mile from an ISP that tried to charge for it. Frankly it should be ready and waiting on all ISPs by now, I can forgive some to/fro with support tweaking things but that's about all.

Sadly I think a number of ISPs still haven't started rolling it out.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Just because he could. RIP.

Edited by Andrue (Wed 08-May-13 13:42:51)

Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Wed 08-May-13 15:16:54
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Re: Daft question re IPv6


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
While on the subject of IPv6 I've seen a few comments like this one which puzzle me:

"One final technical issue I found is that it is practically impossible to host a server on IPv6 without opening up that port in your firewall for all IPv6 hosts. For example, if I want to host a web server on 2001:db8::1, I must add an entry in my screening ACL for ::/0 port 80. This is necessary because I cannot guarantee that my provider-assigned prefix will always by 2001:db8::/64."

Several articles seem to imply that it's common for ISPs to change the prefix. That seems odd to me. It's the equivalent of dynamic IP addressing but seems fairly pointless for IPv6.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Edited by Andrue (Wed 08-May-13 15:17:43)


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Standard User prlzx
(experienced) Wed 08-May-13 21:24:11
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Re: Daft question re IPv6


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
"... that it is practically impossible to host a server on IPv6 without opening up that port in your firewall for all IPv6 hosts. For example, if I want to host a web server on 2001:db8::1, I must add an entry in my screening ACL for ::/0 port 80. This is necessary because I cannot guarantee that my provider-assigned prefix will always by 2001:db8::/64."

Several articles seem to imply that it's common for ISPs to change the prefix. That seems odd to me. It's the equivalent of dynamic IP addressing but seems fairly pointless for IPv6.

Yes, I think it would be odd for the prefix to change frequently.

What would matter is updating the internet DNS(6) entry (or AAAA record) with the whole new address, which would be equivalent to existing dynamic DNS methods..

But back to the the firewall rule, remember this is not quite the same as port forwarding. What you are allowing is for traffic arriving at the internet side of the firewall that is requesting destination port 80 at one or more hosts on the internal side of the firewall. Not port 80 on the WAN address of the firewall.

The host portion of the address (the right half if you like) is something you control as it is your network, so you can ensure this is always the same host address, whether assigned by DHCP(6) reservation or stateless auto-configuration based its MAC address, so for the purpose of an allow rule it should not matter if the prefix (network number or left half) changes.

This will be assisted by firewalls that define their rules symbolically, conceptually something like:
Text
1
allow in on interface {WAN} to host {h}, port {http, https} on {LAN subnet}

so that they can reflect current prefixes.

To be really slick, host h above could be just a hostname (locally unique within your network) such that the router notes the host address for this anyway when the server renews its DHCP lease (or possibly during Neighbour Discovery).

I will be looking at how pfSense does this in the 2.1 beta ahead of release, as in IPv4 entries they already allow symbolic names (Firewall Aliases) in rules such that one rule can apply to a group of hosts (or ports, or networks).

Names for networks (like LAN, WAN, DMZ) are abstracted from the physical interface (and/or VLAN) such that you can do things like reassign your "LAN" network from eth0 to eth1, VLAN 100 without rewriting any rules.

As I have commented before, people may first have to wean themselves off the idea of assigning IP addresses manually on each host when adopting IPv6.
I am looking forward to a certain poster (hint beginning with E...) updating their current guidance to use static addressing as a fix for almost every network question.



prompt $P - Invalid drive specification - Abort, Retry, Fail? $G
prlzx on iDNET: ADSL2+ / 21CN at ~4Mbps / 700kbps with IP4/6

Edited by prlzx (Wed 08-May-13 21:59:44)

Standard User Andrue
(knowledge is power) Wed 08-May-13 22:13:55
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Re: Daft question re IPv6


[re: prlzx] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by prlzx:
But back to the the firewall rule, remember this is not quite the same as port forwarding.
...
snip
Wow. I actually understood that (on the second reading).

With IPv4 my router is pretending to be a single (very active) machine so when someone connects with my FTP server they are connecting through my router. But with IPv6 they actually connect to the host and the router just chooses not to get in the way.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Edited by Andrue (Wed 08-May-13 22:15:46)

Standard User Oliver341
(knowledge is power) Thu 09-May-13 00:19:05
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Re: Daft question re IPv6


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
Further confusion really. I noticed a while back that Windows 7 establishes a 'Teredo' tunnel without asking. Doesn't seem a lot of use though. Most IPv6 test sites I've tried say I can ping to IPv6 and that my ISP (IDNet) DNS suports it but then rate my support as 0/10.

A registry value needs to be added to fully enable the in-built Teredo tunnel in Windows: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teredo_tunneling#Implem...

After that, loading IPv6 websites works fairly well.

Oliver.

Edited by Oliver341 (Thu 09-May-13 00:30:36)

Standard User prlzx
(experienced) Thu 09-May-13 01:19:17
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Re: Daft question re IPv6


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
In reply to a post by prlzx:
But back to the the firewall rule, remember this is not quite the same as port forwarding.
...
snip
Wow. I actually understood that (on the second reading).

With IPv4 my router is pretending to be a single (very active) machine so when someone connects with my FTP server they are connecting through my router. But with IPv6 they actually connect to the host and the router just chooses not to get in the way.

Yes your description is much more succinct. Or - your IPv6 router becomes part of the internet rather than being the only local device actually on the internet.

Compare with IPv4 (if your ISP gives you only one address)
because your IPv4 router has private IPs on the internal side, as well as firewall rules it also has to do NAT
(masquerade as the source of outgoing WAN traffic,
and maintain a translation table of connections with the LAN hosts - because the internet is going to reply to the router itself,
then the router looks in that table and translates the destination back to that private IP and port,
and forwards it to that host)

So yes as far as the internet is concerned all your outgoing traffic appears to come from the WAN of the router itself,
and all your services (for incoming / port forward) also appear to be running on the WAN of your router.

(edit - snip)

For the purposes of running servers (or multi-player gaming or VoIP or conferencing or VPN or remote desktop or collaboration services or ...) IPv6 will eventually be simpler.
People don't always realise that firewall rules are separate from whether NAT is being used or not,
and the usual allow outgoing / deny incoming (unless established state) rules can still be defaults for consumer firewall routers.



prompt $P - Invalid drive specification - Abort, Retry, Fail? $G
prlzx on iDNET: ADSL2+ / 21CN at ~4Mbps / 700kbps with IP4/6

Edited by prlzx (Thu 09-May-13 02:37:04)

Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Thu 09-May-13 09:13:31
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Re: Daft question re IPv6


[re: Oliver341] [link to this post]
 
and it wont until mass isp's have ipv6.

This is an area where isp's need to lead I'm afraid.

Bear in mind its only a software issue so it be trivial for ipv6 to be added in an xbox update.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Thu 09-May-13 09:15:21
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Re: Daft question re IPv6


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
actually dual stack is the logical way forward and is what aaisp have been doign for many years.

Whilst I find cgnat lunacy, when there has been a decade or so to plan for ipv6 migration.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Thu 09-May-13 09:15:51
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Re: Daft question re IPv6


[re: Oliver341] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Oliver341:
Is IPv4 CG NAT necessary for dual stack? That seems to be what BT tell us, but I'm wondering if it's just a way to delay IPv6 rollout for several more years.


its not necessary.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012
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