In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

It does raise a question. Has BT Wholesale hiked the cost of IPstream Connect recently? Perhaps MrSaffron can find out?

Usage is way higher than it used to be. 20CN bandwidth is considerably more expensive than 21CN per Mbps. That's the kicker.

Is it expensive to upgrade 20CN exchanges to 21CN or is it down to the number of premises that the 20CN exchange serves which determines whether an upgrade goes ahead?

In reply to a post by Apprentice:

Is it expensive to upgrade 20CN exchanges to 21CN or is it down to the number of premises that the 20CN exchange serves which determines whether an upgrade goes ahead?

Mainly due to lack of competition. If TalkTalk or Sky aren't offering 24 meg at the exchange, then there's little incentive for BT to spend the cash to upgrade the exchange to WBC.

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

It does raise a question. Has BT Wholesale hiked the cost of IPstream Connect recently? Perhaps MrSaffron can find out?

Usage is way higher than it used to be. 20CN bandwidth is considerably more expensive than 21CN per Mbps. That's the kicker.

Although for many people, including lots of my customers, they're not really using "much" because they normally have pathetically slow connections so the idea of using them for any kind of streaming etc is out already.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by Jax2:

I must be missing something as if you go from your 8000 Active to the current Active the price stays at your existing £25.32 so why not just swap to the current Zen Active? It works with ADSL in that at my distance from my cabinet my router connects on ADSL.

The issue being that the email makes no mention of the option to move to one of the newer, cheaper, packages.

Because if you're on a 20CN Exchange, you *can't* choose "Active" instead of "8000 Active" ... it's not a service option to begin with. I'm expecting I'll be receiving some e-mails for the few accounts still with Zen that are on 20CN exchanges, which also means I'll have a reason to finally migrate everything away I guess.

In reply to a post by Jax2:

I must be missing something as if you go from your 8000 Active to the current Active the price stays at your existing £25.32 so why not just swap to the current Zen Active? It works with ADSL in that at my distance from my cabinet my router connects on ADSL.

Zen's non-8000 packages are provided using the ADSL2+ line card in Zen's MSAN in exchanges where Zen has presence and BT Wholesale 21CN otherwise. If neither of these wholesale services are available, you cannot order the Zen product.

Zen 8000 packages are the only ones that will use BT Wholesale 20CN.


It's many years since I moved from 20CN to 21CN on Zen. So far as I remember, Zen did a bulk move of customers on 21CN upgraded exchanges from 20CN ADSL Max to 21CN ADSL, effectively giving the customer the same product but delivered over the newer, cheaper, wholesale network to minimise Zen's costs. I believe it was then up to customers to ask for a free speed regrade if they wanted ADSL2+ enabling.

I expect Zen continue to bulk move customers to the cheapest wholesale offering. Towards the end of last year, Zen installed a point of presence on their network at the handover point of our FTTC connection, so we were moved from BT Wholesale WBMC to Openreach GEA-FTTC with backhaul over the Zen network.


What I don't know is what Zen do with the customer's product and pricing when Zen LLU ADSL2+ or 21CN becomes available to a Zen 8000 customer. I suspect the upgrade involves a new minimum contract period, so it is up to the customer to request the product switch.

I wonder if a different e-mail was sent to those customers on Zen 8000 products whose service is delivered over Zen LLU ADSL2+ or 21CN, so could switch to a non-8000 product.


As has been said, 20CN backhaul costs continue to rise on a per customer basis, so these costs have to be defrayed somewhere. Whilst BT Wholesale maintain a price differential between 20CN bandwidth and 21CN bandwidth, the ISPs either have to spread the extra 20CN costs between all customers or pass them on to those unfortunate enough not to have access to 21CN or LLU backhaul.


Edit: a couple of clarifying changes only

Edited by deleted (Thu 09-Apr-15 22:39:38)

Plusnet have reduced prices for their BB packages where the connection is to a 21CN exchange, refered to as "low cost areas" in their sales blurb.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by Apprentice:

Is it expensive to upgrade 20CN exchanges to 21CN or is it down to the number of premises that the 20CN exchange serves which determines whether an upgrade goes ahead?

Mainly due to lack of competition. If TalkTalk or Sky aren't offering 24 meg at the exchange, then there's little incentive for BT to spend the cash to upgrade the exchange to WBC.

The trend around here is that the exchanges that aren't 21CNed become so after BT has done some FTTC/FTTP in the exchange's area.

I doubt they are linked since the FTTC/P is likely to be running from the nearby town that has been 21CN for yonks.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that part of the reason for 20CN shutdown at upgraded exchanges is so that BT can get some spares for the remaining exchanges that they haven't yet done, so there's obviously some incentive to keep going and do smaller exchanges (not to mention a far more modern network, ADSL2+ support, being able to use equipment with support from its manufacturers)

Interestingly after BT did some FTTC/P in my village, TalkTalk decided it was time to turn up and LLU the exchange. If only they'd done it a couple of years before (BT 20CN was the only thing available)

Edited by deleted (Thu 09-Apr-15 22:00:11)

In reply to a post by Apprentice:

Plusnet have reduced prices for their BB packages where the connection is to a 21CN exchange, refered to as "low cost areas" in their sales blurb.

Sorry, but unless you have inside information that isn't the case.

Plusnet reduced prices, the ones in their banner statements on their website and in adverts, were originally on (Ofcom) Market 3 exchanges, but were later extended to cover Market 2.

Market 1, 2 and 3 status was last determined by Ofcom in December 2010, on the basis of the LLU provision current or forecast at that time for the exchange. It did not change automatically if un-forecast LLU provision subsequently occurred.

Plusnet "low-cost" was never anything to do with whether or not BT Wholesale WBC/WBMC (21CN) was available.

As M1/2/3 have now morphed into MA and MB, as far as I know Plusnet have not specified what the criteria for low-cost now are. I recall over a year ago they had a provisional re-mapping, (before the final Ofcom determination), but I didn't bookmark the link to it and have no idea if it held or was altered.

I do somewhere have a link to the new Ofcom classifications.

In reply to a post by sor:

The trend around here is that the exchanges that aren't 21CNed become so after BT has done some FTTC/FTTP in the exchange's area.

Slightly different around here. A rural IPSC exchange near me is being FTTC-enabled soon, but it will not be upgraded to WBC at the same time; Openreach will run fibre from a WBC-enabled exchange (mine!) instead.

So residents will have a choice between 8 meg IPSC or fibre.

Yes your right Bob my muddle (tired brain) I'd forgotten that there are 21CN exchanges which are classed market1/A