Thanks Andrew.

What I've never got anyone to answer is how they connect at the exchange, as they don't have their own MSAN. Standard LLU ISPs do. The samknows listing doesn't distinguish.

This is the ADSL package EE have for my connection (EO) to the 20CN exchange:-


http://s8.postimg.org/9y0qgqk8l/EE_package_via_20_CN...


A non starter compared to what I now pay Plusnet.

Edited by Apprentice (Mon 09-Nov-15 10:29:04)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I think you've picked up on something important in the discussion David, in that we can't be sure if Oliver is referring to 20CN ADSL or 21CN WBC ADSLx.

It's an IPstream Connect (20CN) exchange, Market A with no LLU.

In reply to a post by David_W:

Are you sure that Zen draw a distinction on Market A and Market B? I thought - maybe wrongly - that Zen charge higher ADSL prices on 20CN only exchanges, reflecting the higher backhaul costs.

It's very common for Market A exchanges to be IPstream Connect/20CN only, since it's the arrival of LLU which usually spurs BT on to install WBC.

But the arrival of WBC for whatever reason does not result in the exchange being regraded. Plusnet still charge the higher price, as I said earlier. Zen would presumably go to the lower price on transferring their customers to WBC.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

But the arrival of WBC for whatever reason does not result in the exchange being regraded. Plusnet still charge the higher price, as I said earlier. Zen would presumably go to the lower price on transferring their customers to WBC.

All of which is getting a bit off topic. Plusnet, Zen and other WLR3 providers charge a higher price for ADSL on some exchanges either

a) because the exchange is Market A and wholesale charges are higher, or
b) because WBC is not present at the exchange resulting n higher backhaul charges

Or both. As I say in the case of this exchange, it is both Market A and IPSC, so whether it's because of a) or b) doesn't really matter.

But the purpose of this thread is to ask why, on this particular exchange (and I'm sure all others matching its criteria), Plusnet have split level pricing on FTTC whereas other providers do not, and to determine if indeed there is a wholesale reason as to whether FTTC costs are higher on these exchanges, or whether it is purely a business decision on Plusnet's part to make more profit from FTTC connections on Market A/IPSC exchanges.

I answered that .

The subsequent protracted discussion came about because you cited Zen in reply, which works to entirely different criteria. Also "Zen can be used for comparison, since on ADSL they have different pricing for Market A and Market B, their Market A price for unlimited ADSL for instance is an eye-watering £79 per month" simply isn't true. An exchange can be Market B without WBC and Zen will charge the higher ADSL price.

Prior to that, the only clue to it being IPSC rather than WBC was the "ADSL" you referred to. As many people on these forums fail to distinguish ADSL from ADSL2 or 2+ when comparing with FTTC I thought it best to query which you meant. Wisely as it turns out.

I agree with you long ago that it seems to be Plusnet getting it wrong, not BT Wholesale. What's the problem?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I agree with you long ago that it seems to be Plusnet getting it wrong, not BT Wholesale.

Fair enough. It just seemed like the examples I provided of ISPs with split-level pricing for ADSL but not for VDSL, i.e. Sky and Zen, were being dismissed as poor examples of the issue I was trying to highlight. If the additional information I have supplied shows that Zen is a valid example then I suppose all is sorted.

I'm still not clear what you are trying to demonstrate with Zen.

Zen use their own backhaul network if they can, and BT Wholesale if there is no Zen network presence. If Zen have to use BT Wholesale, they use 21CN WBMC if available - and in that case, they charge the same prices they charge customers served by the Zen network. Zen charge higher prices if they are forced to use IPSC, as their backhaul costs are higher on that network.

In practice, BT Wholesale offer 21CN WBC / WBMC from all Openreach GEA-FTTx handover nodes. (I'm not sure there's a formal guarantee of this, but I don't recall anyone mentioning Openreach GEA-FTTx being available to them but service is not available from ISPs using BT Wholesale 21CN). This means Zen's FTTx pricing is the same for everyone within the Openreach coverage footprint.


Zen don't price based on Market A / Market B designations. If BT Wholesale upgrade their offering at a Market A exchange to 21CN WBC / WBMC, it would remain Market A if reclassified and no other operator has presence (though, in practice, Ofcom designations are based on a snapshot in time). Nevertheless, the cheaper Zen ADSL products would become available to those who are newly within the 21CN WBC / WBMC footprint.


In other words, Zen pricing depends on the backhaul network, not the Ofcom Market designation.

In reply to a post by David_W:

I'm still not clear what you are trying to demonstrate with Zen.

The reason Zen charge more for ADSL on exchange X is not relevant here, suffice to say that they do, and so does Plusnet.

It's a straight price comparison between Zen vs Plusnet, exchange X vs exchange Y, ADSL vs VDSL. The comparison leads me to believe Plusnet charge more for VDSL on exchange X than they do on exchange Y despite there being no justification in terms of increased wholesale costs.

Edited by Oliver341 (Tue 10-Nov-15 13:49:11)