Calling maths and engineering geeks: Apple or Windows?

I want to finance a laptop for a teenager who�s taking maths and further maths A-level three years early. She hopes to study either pure maths or maths with engineering at university. She has the use of the family PC and web access but has nothing of her own despite studying ICT at school. Which would be more appropriate both for educational purposes and the obvious fun this teen gets from �playing� with maths online? An Apple laptop or a Windows OS model?

Thanks in advance

Edited by ARD (Thu 05-Apr-12 10:57:35)

there's a much bigger software ecosystem for Windows. Specialist stuff for maths or engineering is usually windows based.

Mac stuff tends to be creative / arty.

So Windows, but you can run that on a Mac too. A lot cheaper to buy a windows laptop than Apple hardware though.

There's no real advantage to using a Mac and educational software is more likely to run on Windows. If you are feeling generous, get her a high-end Windows lappy with plenty of memory and a copy of Mathematica Student Edition.

A couple of points.

With which platform does she have experience? There might be a learning curve if choosing the less familiar.

Also, consider a tablet, if it would be more appropriate or helpful. Easier to carry around and hide.

Home: Windows PC
School: Windows PC and Apple

And Microsoft software from www.software4students.co.uk has always been a good buy but the most amazing deals have just been ended by MicroSoft. They say they are working on a replacement deal.

My daughter's copy of Office 2010 Professional cost £40.00 (and my copy was £9 through my employer's site licence deal!!! This is available to most large companies who have a site licence).

Still advertising Office 2007 Professional for £69.95 though.

Windows or Apple? Why not ask her? If you surprise her, she may not get what she wants or needs.

Thanks! I want her to have her pick of lappies but I�m eyeing up a Toshiba Satellite Z830-10U Ultrabook (6 Gigs RAM) for myself and wonder whether that would be appropriate. Portability is an issue.

EDIT: Ah I don't think it has an optical drive...forget it!

Edited by ARD (Thu 05-Apr-12 12:44:58)

The laptop will not be a surprise. I'm not qualified to judge what wouklld be the best option- hence my asking for a bit of advice here. She'll get her pick but I have to know it's appropriate for what is most important regarding maths studies/maths based games.

In reply to a post by ARD:

The laptop will not be a surprise. I'm not qualified to judge what wouklld be the best option- hence my asking for a bit of advice here. She'll get her pick but I have to know it's appropriate for what is most important regarding maths studies/maths based games.

I'm not going to advice you, frankly because I'm not that qualified, what I will do is congratulate you and especially you daughter for such a keen interest in maths, which so many kids today shy away from.
So well done to your daughter!

As far as University goes, I'm not sure that it matters that much. I suspect that most software used there for these subjects is UNIX/Linux based rather than Windows or OS X.

It's (marginally) easier to install Linux on a PC; on the other hand, OS X being a UNIX-based OS it would be easier to port software to it. But you pay quite a premium for the Apple name.

Overall, I'd go for a Windows based PC on the assumption that if your daughter studies Maths/Engineering at that level she'll probably be geeky enough to install Linux and any software she needs. You'll get much better value for your outlay.

I'd disagree with the suggestion to get a tablet; the software just won't be there for them (and, although easier to hide, they are easier to steal). Porting software to a tablet is something of a nightmare (and requires a normal computer anyway).

Thanks for your input Uni is a few years away even if my godchild goes early. I think the consensus is to opt for a Windows laptop but it's easier said than done getting something lightweight and portable but powerful.

Thanks but she's not my daughter...except in my dreams. She's a kid to be proud of and not only for her intellect. Not much input fom her immediate family, sadly....

It might be worth her checking with students on her target courses (e.g., at interview or contact the departments) to find out what's commonly used and any special need, e.g., do they use any course materials or software that's tied to something like Windows.

If your main concern is for school use, then I guess they're dominated by Windows, and the reality is that, whatever she uses at university, she's likely to encounter Windows afterwards. However, that doesn't mean she should avoid Macs; on the contrary, given that, for the last decade they've been based on a flavour of Unix, they run an awful lot of Unix/Linux packages - commercial and open source - including many that have never been ported to Windows. This is particularly true in university science/math/eng. departments.

The notion that Macs aren't used in science/math/engineering is extremely outdated and utterly wrong; if anything, the balance has shifted the other way, from experience of counting them at conferences and meetings.

If you need an inexpensive option, go for a Windows box, but it would also be a good idea to use VirtualBox (free) or VMWare (costs) to run Linux without having to reboot.

If you want a Mac option, you can still run Windows (and Linux) under VirtualBox or VMware, for the best of all worlds.

Light weight, portable and powerful isnt hard to get but it is expensive.

My Sony Viao fits those, ultra portable (13.3 inch screen) with a Intel Sandybridge i7 processor. My daughter (at university) has a top of the range HP with an 8 core i7 with a 15 inch screen.

Bigger screen means bigger and heavier laptop but a "must" for kids to play games, watch streaming video etc.

Staff in her department (Chemistry) all have Apple laptops but only because Apple do special deals for educational users, the standard "approach and use" kit around the university (Liverpool) is mostly Dell windows kit.

My son studied Computer Science at Manchester and they insisted that everything was Linux - he had a Sony with a dual boot of Windows and Ubuntu.

In reply to a post by ARD:

The laptop will not be a surprise. I'm not qualified to judge what wouklld be the best option- hence my asking for a bit of advice here. She'll get her pick but I have to know it's appropriate for what is most important regarding maths studies/maths based games.

"Educational" maths software and games will be designed to run on bog-standard PCs, so no specific recommendations there. I would recommend a copy of Mathematica if she shows any signs of being a maths "whizz" and for this she will need hardware that will run it comfortably. I would suggest:

• A large screen (at least 16") so that apps can be run multi-windowed. The bigger, the better.
• A multi-core 64-bit processor - always useful for scientific software.
• As much memory as can be crammed into the machine (consider maximum memory, not just installed memory).
• Windows 7 Ultimate to provide maximum capabilities, especially memory addressability and being able to run 64-bit natively and 32-bit in a VM if needed (old educational software may be 16-bit).
• A rugged case that will take inevitable knocks.
• A built-in camera if she likes social networking. She will. I know, I know.
• A high-capacity hard disk is always useful although upgrades are easy to do.
• Insurance for theft if your wallet doesn't start screaming.

Do not be tempted to skimp on screen size, memory capacity or processor power.

Student Editions of Mathematica do not seem to be available for schoolkids so:

• Find out if her school has the software and a site licence that allows installation on pupils' machines Do not be put off if they pooh-pooh the idea (they will).
• Contact Wolfram Research to see if they will make an exception given the circumstances. They're very friendly and helpful and will advise you on minimum and recommended hardware specs. They also run free courses that your god-daughter may be able to attend. If she's not sure about Mathematica, get her on one of these courses. If they won't flog you a student licence over the phone, attend one of the courses and ask them face-to-face. They usually have a marketing wallah there.

That's all that I can think of for now.

Edited by micksharpe (Thu 05-Apr-12 14:47:19)

In reply to a post by ARD:

Thanks! I want her to have her pick of lappies but I�m eyeing up a Toshiba Satellite Z830-10U Ultrabook (6 Gigs RAM) for myself and wonder whether that would be appropriate. Portability is an issue.

No! No! No! For scientific computing, size trumps portability every time. Running scientific software on a 13" screen would be like Chinese torture. Please. Forget it.

Thanks for all the advice. My goddaughter has an external mentor (outside her school) via the UK Mathematical Trust. I think I�ll contact her. I�ll also contact Wolfram Research about Mathematica on which, I think, the UKMT mentor-student problems and ideas are based. I�m not sure the school would pooh-pooh the idea. They�ve been helpful within their limits. I�m going to snoop around for the best person to approach, which I might not be the head teacher or head of maths. It�s difficult not being the parent but we ought to be able to work together on this issue.

I would not skimp on processor or memory but I�d hoped to limit screen size for the sake of portability though maybe an external monitor would help here. One thing I can be certain of is the webcam. In this case, I�d say social networking is essential tool as well as much-needed fun.

Edited by ARD (Thu 05-Apr-12 15:08:33)

You're obviously 100% certain so I'll go with that advice unless an external monitor would get around the issue

An external monitor would do the business. If you go for a "portable" lappy, make sure that it has a high-res screen.

Just for info, VMWare Player is a free option - and, despite its name, you can create VMs with it. It does most everything that VirtualBox does (but I prefer VirtualBox).

an external DVD for £30 provides for the few software installs that aren't downloads.

I used to do my engineering on 12" Sony Vaios or a 13" Toshiba as carrying these "organ envy" 17" laptops around was too ridiculous for words.

Not a big fan of external screens on laptops unless you're adding an external keyboard as well - the laptop screen gets in the way. Custom docking solutions are best if you want to go that way, though that does limit your options (which might actually be useful).

Thanks for your input, Phil. I'm planning on getting an external DVD writer/reader for myself when I get around to buying an ultrabook for the sake of portability. As far as external monitors are concerned, I've had mixed results over the last 6-7 years. Some combiantions seem to give perfect results; others (in particular with a Dell laptop) rather uphappy. On the whole, though,OK. I've never, as yet, felt the need for an external keyboard. Would you opt for a wireless model?

In reply to a post by AEP:

Just for info, VMWare Player is a free option - and, despite its name, you can create VMs with it. It does most everything that VirtualBox does (but I prefer VirtualBox).

Thanks, that's useful to know; the last time I used VMWare Player it was fairly limited but I see they removed the limitation on creating VMs in v3.0.1 - presumably as a result of competition from VirtualBox for personal users that might turn into paying ones.

I use VMWare Fusion and VirtualBox, and VirtualBox has reached a point where (at least for the price ) it's a great alternative and works on some other platforms.

I would probably use a wireless keyboard on a laptop, there are tiny usb transmitters now that can live plugged into the laptop. In one case the wireless keyboard & mouse wouldn't work through a desk so the transmitter had to be on a usb extension onto the desk top.

I don't like wireless kb / mouse setups on normal desktop PCs as they aren't reliable ways to access the bios options etc in the event of problems, but that wouldn't arise on a laptop.

I agree about buying something with higher versions of Windows - Windows 7 Pro includes the XP mode which I used to provide an XP environment for a guy running OU maths course software that wouldn't run on Win7.

Misco often have good deals on business laptops with bundled warranties and W7Pro

Just a quick comment on VMware. VMware server is also free and gives you great power over creating and managing your vms. And if you don't want the heft of server for normal use you could shut it down and use player to run the vms you have created. The VMware ecosystem is pretty significant and only really expensive if you start needing the high end multi server capabilities.

Windows!

There are lot of small engineering or maths apps out there for specific tasks and often with limited distribution or requirement. From ones I have seen they will be Windows first and iMac later - if at all. So without running a windows virtual machine, it will be a lot easier with Windows.

I also see lots various Apple machines at conferences/workshops but only for note taking, email &c and would guess that the users will run a VM or alternate machine with specific apps.

In reply to a post by MHC:

I also see lots various Apple machines at conferences/workshops but only for note taking, email &c

That's certainly not my observation, but I can only speak for communities in which I've worked directly or indirectly: applied maths/Physics, E.Eng & CS types. As well as pure research, I know others in diverse commercial environments spanning applications such as computational finance, the early stage design/simulation of microprocessors and engineering problems that require complex multiphysics simulations. I'm also told that Macs are popular among computational chemists and life-sciences folk.

This stuff is running natively on Mac OS X, often using math/stat/graphics tools like SciPy, SciLab, R, Matlab/Octave, IDL/GDL, Mathematica, as well as packages and tools developed using compiled languages. CAD/CAM/ECAD stuff is undoubtedly in short supply, but I know of at least one commercial multiphysics package (COMSOL) and another edu/gov one (Flash - not Adobe - better suited to large bangs of the thermonuclear kind).

Under the hood, OS X is essentially a variant of unix and so Macs also fit well in environments where large multiprocessor unix supercomputers and Linux HPC clusters perform the very heavy lifting. For many they're a worthy successor to the Sun, SGI and other workstations that many of us used when Windows sat atop DOS and was barely capable of running itself, let alone an application.

Windows is certainly well endowed with engineering packages for things like CAD/CAE, ECAD etc. - a lot of those moved from VAX minis and Unix workstations once PCs were up to the job - but those things are only part of a spectrum of math, science and engineering R&D ranging from blue-sky research through conceptual design and modelling to implementation design and manufacturing.