Sequoia

Anyone installed it yet? I have, not yet, seen a few posts in different places of people having problems, so if i do decide to install it will not be for a while.
Also depends on how Apple do their AI

Yep.

No issues. iPhone mirroring is quite handy, and they have finally put a little thought into the organisation of the Settings app. Most of it is under the hood by the looks - obviously the biggee will be Apple Intelligence in 18.1.

I don't have a iPhone and I doubt I ever will, so the mirroring part I will never use and to be honest it is a thing I would not use.

There are a couple of things that look interesting, Apple Intelligence is not one of them and I expect I would disable it.
I will wait until at least next year I think and see what happens.

But thanks anyway

In reply to a post by ian_c:

Apple Intelligence in 18.1.

15.1 for macOS. (18.x is for iPhone/iPad).

Why Apple can't align the version numbers is annoying...

The Mac and Apple Watch versions are misaligned to others (iPhone,iPad,AppleTV,HomePod).

Duh! Yes.

It's about time they got their numbers in sync!

No problems here. My M2 Pro Mini seems even more responsive and my wife’s iMac M3 really flies.

Some useful new features and an improved System Settings menu.

John

Still think that the iOS-ification of System settings was a mistake. Hanging on for a few more days before upgrading.

As with so many "innovations", I have my doubts is I'll use them.

Nothing I've seen so far in the System Settings seems to cause a problem, most of which can be left at the default settings unless you really want to change something.

John

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by ian_c:

Apple Intelligence in 18.1.

15.1 for macOS. (18.x is for iPhone/iPad).

Why Apple can't align the version numbers is annoying...

The Mac and Apple Watch versions are misaligned to others (iPhone,iPad,AppleTV,HomePod).

I should have picked that as well, but I am still newish here

In reply to a post by Rhynchelma:

Still think that the iOS-ification of System settings was a mistake. Hanging on for a few more days before upgrading.

As with so many "innovations", I have my doubts is I'll use them.

What do you mean iOS-ification of System settings? I presume it is more lie IOS,

a friend of mine has had Macs for years, since the IMac G3, and she said a few years ago about Mac OS or OSX as it was then, starting to look more like a phone OS than a computer OS.
Being pretty new to owning a Mac, it is all of a muchness to me. My friend has a Mac pro trashcan and I remember the OS looked a fair bit different to what I use now, she said it all went down hill with Sierra. The last time we chatted, she was looking at getting a new Mac, but will wait and see what comes out this year. It's done well, that trashcan.

Anyway, as for Sequoia, it looks like it has some good features, like you, I am sure there will be a lot I will not use, the Window tiling could be useful, be more like I am used to in Windows.

The new password app seems useful at first, but then I look at it again and while it works in windows, you need to use the Apple Id or account or what ever they are calling it now and I it is also not available on Android or Linux, so I will be staying with Bit Warden.

The AI stuff is certainly not for me, I don't see myself having any need for it and not sure if I would trust it.

I used to be pretty quick to update to new operating systems, when new windows came out I updated as soon as i could until it came to Windows 10 and I slowed down a bit. But with all the stuff that gets added to them these days, I like to play safe

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

What do you mean iOS-ification of System settings? I presume it is more lie IOS,

Just before you moved to Mac, the operating system was called OS X and the setting screen was called System Preferences and was similar in look to an older Windows Control Panel.

Now it looks almost identical to iPad settings (as two columns, iPhone has one); and they renamed it “System Settings” as the iPhone and iPad call it simply “Settings”. They gave it the same icon too.

When you see how many iPhones (hundreds of millions) and iPads (high tens of millions) Apple sells a year, it is no surprise the mac (low tens of millions) design evolves to look more like their more successful products.

It's just giving everything a consistent look and feel, with consistent terminology.

One other good thing is much impoirved integration between reminders and calendar apps. It makes my calendar desktop widget actually useful...

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Just before you moved to Mac, the operating system was called OS X and the setting screen was called System Preferences and was similar in look to an older Windows Control Panel.

Now it looks almost identical to iPad settings (as two columns, iPhone has one); and they renamed it “System Settings” as the iPhone and iPad call it simply “Settings”. They gave it the same icon too.

When you see how many iPhones (hundreds of millions) and iPads (high tens of millions) Apple sells a year, it is no surprise the mac (low tens of millions) design evolves to look more like their more successful products.

I know what it was called and I know about System Preferences, I did use a Mac before I had mine, but not that much.

In reply to a post by ian_c:

It's just giving everything a consistent look and feel, with consistent terminology.

One other good thing is much impoirved integration between reminders and calendar apps. It makes my calendar desktop widget actually useful...

Not sure about that, at first I thought it may be good, but may put too much into the calendar, I presume that can be disabled? Not that I use reminders that often as I will only get them on my Mac.
i will normally use Alexa as that will also send notifications to my phone, something my Mac won't

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Anyone installed it yet? I have, not yet, seen a few posts in different places of people having problems, so if i do decide to install it will not be for a while.
Also depends on how Apple do their AI

Been running it on various machines now since release and generally it’s been fine, though have had issues with some Dell software (no surprises there I guess) waiting on a Sequoia compatible version of Dell Display Manager which is coming out shortly. Quite why Dell can’t be bothered to test during beta is anyone’s guess, but their stated policy is to wait for final release OS before they update their own.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Been running it on various machines now since release and generally it’s been fine, though have had issues with some Dell software (no surprises there I guess) waiting on a Sequoia compatible version of Dell Display Manager which is coming out shortly. Quite why Dell can’t be bothered to test during beta is anyone’s guess, but their stated policy is to wait for final release OS before they update their own.

My colleagues whom prefer their IT fruit flavoured whom upgrade are all spitting; many issues with different vendor VPN clients, and some even found outbound SSH not working. 15.0.1 did help a bit, our ad-hoc chat channels are advising people to wait for 15.1 if they've not yet upgraded. Unless you buy a new Mac !

Fruit flavoured IT. Love it James.

Yes I'm not super surprised with VPN client issues. Although I run ZeroTier that's been fine. Touch wood. Anecdotally I believe they've altered a lot more under the bonnet with Sequoia than other annual releases recently, and it shows.

There still is nothing show-stoppery here. Just some gripes with Dell being slow to the party.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Yes I'm not super surprised with VPN client issues. Although I run ZeroTier that's been fine. Touch wood. Anecdotally I believe they've altered a lot more under the bonnet with Sequoia than other annual releases recently, and it shows.

Some third party vendors are unhappy as they worked with the betas and apparently Apple changed something at the last minute. Which is a) unsurprising from Apple, and b) unprofessional now that Apple hardware is popular in enterprise. It just sours the brand in the enterprise.

Yeah good point. Though who knows what their last minute motivations or reasons were.

I've been eagerly waiting for Microsoft to widely release the W11 24H2 update as there are several performance improvements with Windows 11 for ARM in the new release. Unfortunately they pulled the full release expected in September, but still possible to get it via Insider Programme, at least I managed to get an update for my ARM VM that way. My ThinkPad is still stubbornly stuck on 23H2 😅

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Yeah good point. Though who knows what their last minute motivations or reasons were.

It is a bit surprising.

I've been eagerly waiting for Microsoft to widely release the W11 24H2 update as there are several performance improvements with Windows 11 for ARM in the new release. Unfortunately they pulled the full release expected in September, but still possible to get it via Insider Programme, at least I managed to get an update for my ARM VM that way. My ThinkPad is still stubbornly stuck on 23H2 😅

My work laptop (Thinkpad) is on our internal early-adopter list, so I've got 24H2 on there, but there are issues with the Intel graphics driver trying to reinstall constantly, the same version, via WU. My personal Surface (Intel) has had no issue - as you'd hope. My Asus desktop still doesn't have any sign of 24H2.

At least MS doesn't have any issues delaying; unlike Apple that seems to always need to meet a pre-set date.

Though who knows what their last minute motivations or reasons were.

I would guess it is soemthing they decided wasn't working as well as it should (or maybe a vulnerability) and they pull it rather than delaying release.

Which is silly, but very Apple.

In reply to a post by ian_c:

Which is silly, but very Apple.

Very "US stock market" ... have to meet the expected release date. Even if not finished.

Ahh windows…crash n burn baby 😂😎

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Ahh windows…crash n burn baby 😂😎

Oh dear. At least it has a rollback. Unlike my colleagues whom updated to Sequoia and then found VPN to customer failed, so had to backup data (externally!); wipe the entire Mac, and reinstall Sonoma.

Was that 24H2 or something else?

Preview Build 26120.2130 which was released 2 days ago for the Dev Channel. It’s failed and rolled back twice now. Think that’s a sign it no likey my ThinkPad which is only a few months old 🥲

It will be incompatible drivers, as with my work issued 2022 machine. Lenovo customise some of the intel stuff, so we have to wait for Lenovo.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

It will be incompatible drivers, as with my work issued 2022 machine. Lenovo customise some of the intel stuff, so we have to wait for Lenovo.

Give me MacOS any day of the week...Oh wait 🤣

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

It will be incompatible drivers, as with my work issued 2022 machine. Lenovo customise some of the intel stuff, so we have to wait for Lenovo.

Give me MacOS any day of the week...Oh wait 🤣

One of the better things I have done in the computer world was to change to Mac, but I will leave Sequoia where it is for a while longer.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Give me MacOS any day of the week...Oh wait 🤣

I used to be a fan of Mac, but it seems Mac is heading the way of iPad with controls everywhere. For GUI (e.g. web / Word,Excel etc) I prefer Windows, but for servers, its Linux for me. They _all_ have their oddities, and neither is going anywhere!

If you rely on your machine for work, waiting for the first .1 release is always a good plan.

I been waiting on Windows most of my adult life to be something like that! Looks like they might have finally cracked it in this old version 11. Only taken them 30 years 😂

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Anyone installed it yet? I have, not yet, seen a few posts in different places of people having problems, so if i do decide to install it will not be for a while.
Also depends on how Apple do their AI

Been running it on various machines now since release and generally it’s been fine, though have had issues with some Dell software (no surprises there I guess) waiting on a Sequoia compatible version of Dell Display Manager which is coming out shortly. Quite why Dell can’t be bothered to test during beta is anyone’s guess, but their stated policy is to wait for final release OS before they update their own.

To be fair to Dell they have now released an update to Dell Display and Peripheral Manager as of 2 days ago, which is Sequoia compatible.

Depending if you’re a pessimist or an optimist; it was mid way between “late” and “early” given I was told by them it would be released initially in mid-October and then late-October!

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

To be fair to Dell they have now released an update to Dell Display and Peripheral Manager as of 2 days ago, which is Sequoia compatible.

Depending if you’re a pessimist or an optimist; it was mid way between “late” and “early” given I was told by them it would be released initially in mid-October and then late-October!

what is the Display and Peripheral Manager, why is it required?

It's basically software that integrates with certain Dell monitors - allows you to use functions like KVM sharing, display arrangement / window-in window, hotkeys to swap monitor inputs, adjust picture settings etc without having to feel for the physical controls (around the back of the display).

It's really useful for me as I use a Dell U4021QW 40-inch monitor and run my Mac Studio through it and usually a ThinkPad or MacBook via a dock into the monitor, so I like to be able to snap things automatically into 1/2 or 1/4 of the main display.

Various functions broke on the previous version of DDPM when Sequoia was released. Upgrading through Sonoma, Ventura and Monterey, were fine with the existing versions of DDPM. So something fundamental must have changed with Sequoia

In reply to a post by jchamier:

It will be incompatible drivers, as with my work issued 2022 machine. Lenovo customise some of the intel stuff, so we have to wait for Lenovo.

Lenovo have just dropped an Intel graphics driver update for 10/11. On my X13 2-in-1 Gen 5 its shifted from version 31.0.101.5388 to 32.0.101.5972.

Now trying to apply the 24H2 update (again)....third time's a charm!

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Lenovo have just dropped an Intel graphics driver update for 10/11. On my X13 2-in-1 Gen 5 its shifted from version 31.0.101.5388 to 32.0.101.5972.

Thanks for the heads up, sounds exactly what I've been waiting for (Intel's own tool had later, likely 32.0.101.5972 but warned the driver was customised by Lenovo and recommended not installing)

Now trying to apply the 24H2 update (again)....third time's a charm!

My T14 Gen 2 is running 24H2 but most other machines I meet have some block. Its deja vu from further back with Win10, maybe 2019 era.

It seems the T14 Gen 2 doesn't yet have an update. (looking on Web, or in the tools like Vantage). But good news things are moving from Lenovo.

Edited by jchamier (Sat 26-Oct-24 18:12:27)

In reply to a post by jchamier:

My T14 Gen 2 is running 24H2 but most other machines I meet have some block. Its deja vu from further back with Win10, maybe 2019 era.

The irony (or not if you think about it) is that, my Win 11 VMs on Arm/ Apple Silicon either seamlessly updated to 24H2 or (admittedly very recently) just fresh installed 24H2 off the bat with barely a whimper.

Trying to get 24H2 installed directly on Intel-based tin is excruciating.

Edited by Pheasant (Sat 26-Oct-24 18:45:29)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Now trying to apply the 24H2 update (again)....third time's a charm!

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Trying to get 24H2 installed directly on Intel-based tin is excruciating.

Argh. Rolled itself back once again, despite the latest drivers update! 😒

I stand by my last comment.

I better stop posting this to a Sequoia thread. My bad for de-railing it. Sorry had to vent.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

The irony (or not if you think about it) is that, my Win 11 VMs on Arm/ Apple Silicon either seamlessly updated to 24H2 or (admittedly very recently) just fresh installed 24H2 off the bat with barely a whimper. Trying to get 24H2 installed directly on Intel-based tin is excruciating.

I think all the Windows -on- ARM drivers are likely still provided by MS or by the hypervisor vendor. The only issue I have with 24H2 is Lenovo customised drivers, I don't blame MS, I blame Lenovo!!

It's crackers though isn't it.

An actual Windows machine (3 months old) can't upgrade to 24H2 without crashing/rolling back and yet I can easily spin up a new copy of 24H2 or upgrade to it from 23H2 on an Apple Silicon based Mac (albeit virtualised) without issue.

I've variously had ThinkPads since the 90's and still do like Lenovo laptops, but sometimes...OMFG they test your patience 🙀

The surface pro upgraded without issue.

Shows the benefit of vertical integration that Apple and Microsoft can do when they make the OS and the hardware.

My desktop Asus motherboard still hasn’t upgraded. 🤣

I should hope it would given the box is ‘made’ by Microsoft 😂

Still no hiding my disappointment that massive companies like Lenovo can’t sort out a yearly software release from their main OS vendor partner yet on brand new tin. I’d give them a let if it was 3 years old, but 3 months and can’t run the current release of Windows. Bit [censored] really.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

It's basically software that integrates with certain Dell monitors - allows you to use functions like KVM sharing, display arrangement / window-in window, hotkeys to swap monitor inputs, adjust picture settings etc without having to feel for the physical controls (around the back of the display).

It's really useful for me as I use a Dell U4021QW 40-inch monitor and run my Mac Studio through it and usually a ThinkPad or MacBook via a dock into the monitor, so I like to be able to snap things automatically into 1/2 or 1/4 of the main display.

Various functions broke on the previous version of DDPM when Sequoia was released. Upgrading through Sonoma, Ventura and Monterey, were fine with the existing versions of DDPM. So something fundamental must have changed with Sequoia

Ah, I see, I don't have anything like that with my monitor. The one I was going to get had a puck on a cable, but I decided against it.


Yes, as you said, something fundamental must have changed, IU have still not updated, I will wait for a while longer,

Am I lost? Is this the Windows forum?

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

Am I lost? Is this the Windows forum?

My humble apologies for the thread derailment. 🙈

Thankfully Adrian brought us back to topic in his post above and I can confirm Sequioa is working lovely here, with updated Dell monitor software released last week.

It’s humming even with Windows 24H2 and some fat old 3D CAD software sitting on top. Sorry couldn’t help myself 😂

Sat Nav required?

Windscreen wipers.

You are definitely lost as you've switched on your wipers!

Couldn’t see through my Windows.

Thought you didn't like talking about other operating systems on the Apple forum?

I was talking about my windows.

No, you were talking about your Windows.

Must have made a typo.

Only large ancient trees, places in California, mountains and mountain ranges, big cats and forbidden fruit from the Garden of Eden can be mentioned within these hallowed…errr spaces.

Anything to do with glazing, the outside of objects, or extremely small soft things gets you banned and barred 😂😝

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

My humble apologies for the thread derailment. 🙈

Thankfully Adrian brought us back to topic in his post above and I can confirm Sequioa is working lovely here, with updated Dell monitor software released last week.

It’s humming even with Windows 24H2 and some fat old 3D CAD software sitting on top. Sorry couldn’t help myself 😂

I started the thread and I am not bothered. I see Sequoia 15.2 is in beta and has more AI rubbish on it. Still one good thing with Mac Os, it is easy to turn it off with just one switch. I bet it is not that easy on Windows 11. Still not updated to Sequoia yet, still waiting to see if they sort out the issues with it that some people are having.
The one reason i got a Mac was because it works and i got fed up with mucking around Windows what may work until MS does an update to put more junk in that some of us did not need.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I started the thread and I am not bothered. I see Sequoia 15.2 is in beta and has more AI rubbish on it. Still one good thing with Mac Os, it is easy to turn it off with just one switch.

15.2 is in beta, but its really the same as 15.1 with support for UK English (and Australian, Canadian etc English) where as 15.1 was only USA English. Not really any new features until the new year.

Windows 11 has much less AI integration, and the "copilot" is just an app that shows https://copilot.microsoft.com in a window, so you can just uninstall it. There isn't the integration that Apple has on Mac.

The one reason i got a Mac was because it works and i got fed up with mucking around Windows what may work until MS does an update to put more junk in that some of us did not need.

You didn't hear the screams from our Mac users in Sept whom went to 15.0 and found half their tools that worked in previous macOS stopped working. Not really tools that home users would use, corporate VPN clients, and some diagnostic software for instrumentation.

But Apple isn't better than Microsoft in their annual releases, just different.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

15.2 is in beta, but its really the same as 15.1 with support for UK English (and Australian, Canadian etc English) where as 15.1 was only USA English. Not really any new features until the new year.

I thought it put AI into siri in 15.2, the writing tools are already in 15.1 as far as i know for any country.

Windows 11 has much less AI integration, and the "copilot" is just an app that shows https://copilot.microsoft.com in a window, so you can just uninstall it. There isn't the integration that Apple has on Mac.

Maybe so, but least on the mac, all you have to do is flick one switch, virtual switch, but you know what i mean.
On Windows, you seem to have to go to different parts of the OS to disable different parts of the AI stuff. that is just Windows 10, so no idea what Windows 11 is like now.

You didn't hear the screams from our Mac users in Sept whom went to 15.0 and found half their tools that worked in previous macOS stopped working. Not really tools that home users would use, corporate VPN clients, and some diagnostic software for instrumentation.

But Apple isn't better than Microsoft in their annual releases, just different.

I did hear the screams. That is why I have been a bit worried about updating to Sequoia. I have done so this morning, so we will see how it goes.,

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I thought it put AI into siri in 15.2, the writing tools are already in 15.1 as far as i know for any country.

Only if you set your Siri language to "US English", same rules as iPhone/iPad on 18.x.

Apple UK's web page even says "coming in December" https://www.apple.com/uk/apple-intelligence/

the X.2 release will solve this for English in Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa in December, and then the X.4 release for many many other world languages.

Maybe so, but least on the mac, all you have to do is flick one switch, virtual switch, but you know what i mean.
On Windows, you seem to have to go to different parts of the OS to disable different parts of the AI stuff. that is just Windows 10, so no idea what Windows 11 is like now.

11 is tidied up 10, as the way the 10 was the dramatic improvement over Win8

I did hear the screams. That is why I have been a bit worried about updating to Sequoia. I have done so this morning, so we will see how it goes.,

The failing software was generally not used by home users, so it didn't impact my family and friends on Mac. Just loads of my corporate colleagues .

Sorry you may have mentioned it already but which VPN software was it that failed, at least initially, under Sequoia?

Did the VPN vendor patch it or wait for the Sequoia 15.01 or later 15.1 updates?

(Running ZeroTier here)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Sorry you may have mentioned it already but which VPN software was it that failed, at least initially, under Sequoia? Did the VPN vendor patch it or wait for the Sequoia 15.01 or later 15.1 updates?

Issues reported with loads, but ones I recall being Cisco AnyConnect, Fortinet, and JunOS pulse. I think even OpenVPN was impacted to some extent.

The problems ranged from connecting with no routing, to random disconnections and obscure errors being raised. Many people rolled back to 14.x as there was no known timeframe for a fix from the vendor or Apple.

I try to keep away from the Mac support team in Sept/oct each year!

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Only if you set your Siri language to "US English", same rules as iPhone/iPad on 18.x.

Apple UK's web page even says "coming in December" https://www.apple.com/uk/apple-intelligence/

the X.2 release will solve this for English in Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa in December, and then the X.4 release for many many other world languages.

so really, Apple are false advertising, saying that Iphones and Mac have Apple intelligence, when they have not.
It is not just Siri that have to be changed, the language and region of the whole OS have to be changed, and then you are put on a waiting list. I was going to be nosy and then decided not to bother.

11 is tidied up 10, as the way the 10 was the dramatic improvement over Win8

I bet you still have to go all over the place to disable AI in Windows 11, like edge, different software and the Os itself. As I said, with the mac it is just one switch.
Was Windows 10 an improvement over 8?, I have my doubts. Sure the UI was better, but add on a third party start menu and I found that Windows 8 ran a lot better on my then AMD Fx machine than Windows 10. When I got my Ryzen, I tried to keep Windows 7, but Microsoft decided they did not like me using it on the Ryzen.
sound familiar?

The failing software was generally not used by home users, so it didn't impact my family and friends on Mac. Just loads of my corporate colleagues .

I have found a problem with DaVinci resolve, it crashes when I use Fusion, I don't know if this is a Sequoia problem or something went weird when I updated. I will uninstall DaVinci resolve and reinstall and see if that helps.

I use Nord and that is okay, well as okay as normal. Will be changing it next year when my subscription is up

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

so really, Apple are false advertising, saying that Iphones and Mac have Apple intelligence, when they have not.
It is not just Siri that have to be changed, the language and region of the whole OS have to be changed, and then you are put on a waiting list. I was going to be nosy and then decided not to bother.

If you read the US websites you get the wrong impression.

https://www.apple.com/uk/apple-intelligence/
has said "coming in december" for a long time.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

If you read the US websites you get the wrong impression.

https://www.apple.com/uk/apple-intelligence/
has said "coming in december" for a long time.

Even the adverts in the UK is with Apple Intelligence. Sure one yesterday while watching something on ITVX and I did not see anything about it being available in December.

It is coming to UK English phones in December, but for phones in the UK set to US English it is already available.

Sure one yesterday while watching something on ITVX and I did not see anything about it being available in December.

The ads I have seen (mianly EE) have very clearly, but briefly, had that included,

This is a ridiculous “debate” 😂 It’s splashed across Apple UK front page for every single new product….

https://www.apple.com/uk/

Carry on. You make me giggle.

In reply to a post by ian_c:

Sure one yesterday while watching something on ITVX and I did not see anything about it being available in December.

The ads I have seen (mianly EE) have very clearly, but briefly, had that included,

Fair enough, I did not see it. I will look closer next time if I see it again. Not that I have any interest in using it, but i do wonder how many did not see the arriving in December and then when they get their new Mac/iphone find that Ai is not available.,

Apple UK aren't exactly hiding the fact...at least not on the home page of their UK website. They've labelled it on every device:

iPhone and iPhone Pro

iPad and Mac

Those with appropriate hardware, can switch the Siri voice language to English US since iOS 18.1, or macOS 15.1 and ONLY the Siri system voice switches language, and it works. The start of improved Siri may be the reason to use it (on a phone/watch).

Many of my customers with Mac laptops are using the ChatGPT app and subscribe to ChatGPT, so wonder if they will try Apple Intelligence.

The only thing I found with switching to US English is that it changes the date format, Siri voice and temperature units to american settings so I had to set them back. Otherwise I haven't noticed anything much different except that AI works.

Not sure if you ever bothered with the Sequoia upgrade Adrian, but the dot one of the dot one is now released, aka Sequoia 15.1.1

Sequoia seems to have borked my Canon PIXMA printer, confirmed by Canon support that it is eol.
Will try with 15.1.1 before ditching and replacing.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Not sure if you ever bothered with the Sequoia upgrade Adrian, but the dot one of the dot one is now released, aka Sequoia 15.1.1

Yes, I have, I put in this post, but easy to miss it.
Got a couple of issues, fusion on Davinci resolve seems to be on the slow side. Even updated Da Vinci, but still no difference. I am thinking of rolling back, but I will try this updated version and see if that helps.

In reply to a post by nonymouse:

Sequoia seems to have borked my Canon PIXMA printer, confirmed by Canon support that it is eol.
Will try with 15.1.1 before ditching and replacing.

That is the problem when you have older printers, if it works fine, then you don't really want to get rid of it.
it was like my scanner when I moved to Mac, thankfully I found something called Vuescan that allowed me to use my old scanner, it may be old, but it works fine and better than a lot of newer scanners.

I tried to get a Lexmark printer going for someone on Windows 10 a few months ago, it worked fine until Windows 10 did an update and that was the end of it. Printers are pretty cheap these days if all you want is something basic, a waste I know, but that is the way things are.

Make sure that you have a good (tested) backup using software other than Time Machine if you want to roll back. Carbon Copy is good software for this.

I've never used it to do a rollback, but what's the problem with Time Machine?

The problem is that if it is a current backup it will restore back to the current OS. It's OK to use a backup that was taken before the upgrade, but that will lose any data changes made after that date. It would be possible to select individual files to restore, but it can be quite complicated to do that and retain the correct configuration.

Also, it's difficult to test a Time Machine backup without doing a full restore. A Carbon Copy backup can make a bootable drive; so you can test it by booting off it.

I use Time Machine via a network drive, so a full restore from it would be a lengthy business. A Carbon Copy (or similar cloning software) backup to an external drive is pretty quick and, as I said, immediately testable.

Rollback instructions here: https://www.macworld.com/article/671318/how-to-downg...

Edited by TinyMongomery (Wed 20-Nov-24 10:17:06)

Have you checked if your printer is listed here as supported: https://www.printfab.net/printers_Canon.html ? It might be worth downloading the trial version to see if it can help.

Thanks… it is on the list…

Will try and revert!


[Edit] Uiii PrintFab is €49.50... definitely am trying 15.1.1 first!! Also only states up to OS 14.x 😕

[Edit v.2] 15.1.1 still not allowing most recent Canon PIXMA driver software!

Edited by nonymouse (Wed 20-Nov-24 13:47:12)

OK, thanks.

I could see the issue with losing any data changes made after the OS upgrade, I was worried in case Time Machine had some quirk I wasn't aware of.

Just installed 15.2 this evening.

What have changed on that and what does it offer?

Mostly as mentioned, Apple Intelligence AI features that were announced as coming December. I’ve not set that up yet, I skipped over the splash screen. Will have a look later today on another machine 😎

I think it's mainly for Apple silicon machines (and the iPhone 15/16 for the IOS equivalent), isn't it?

I'm still on Intel and an iPhone 12.

I believe that’s correct.

In reply to a post by billford:

(and the iPhone 15/16 for the IOS equivalent), isn't it?

Quite a few tweaks to applications (e.g. Mail) that appeared on my old iPhone SE 2nd gen.

The 15 Pro/Pro Max, not the 15 standard or plus get Apple Intelligence, and all models of 16. iPads with M1 CPU, and the new Mini with its A17 Pro CPU from the 15 Pro. None of the older models with A series CPUs.

Edited by jchamier (Thu 12-Dec-24 11:44:03)

Initial splash screen on re-start / login.

Apple Intelligence & Siri settings within System Settings and country etc. voice choices for English

Updated mine this morning and have the AI and the new image playground. Have had a little play with the image playground but it is likely to get relegated to non-use fairly quickly - I just don't have the imagination or need to really use it but I can see there are many people that would love it. Haven't tried anything with ChatGPT yet (saying that I think it has to actually be consciously switched on which I haven't yet done).

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Initial splash screen on re-start / login.

Apple Intelligence & Siri settings within System Settings and country etc. voice choices for English

Cheers, looks like it can all be disabled easily enough. Nothing that is of much interest to me, to be honest, so I will leave it for a while. Still having a couple of problems with Davinci resolve with Sequoia, so I may even go back to Sonoma

I just took a test drive with a very sensitive and rather complex document, and an associated letter of confluent and the key point summary was friggin' AMAZING.

* There was a small instance of American idiom (gotten where UK English would not normally use it) in the "friendly" rewrite;
* It kept becoming "unavailable" and wanting a smaller selection, with bigger tasks, although the "Professional" worked and was pretty solid, if a little wordy.

In reply to a post by ian_c:

I just took a test drive with a very sensitive and rather complex document, and an associated letter of confluent and the key point summary was friggin' AMAZING.

Unlike the BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd0elzk24dno

https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/12/13/bbc-cries...

Yeah, that's notification summaries, not what I was referring to - the very nature of headlines makes this sort of thing likely and, of course, nobody in a news organisation every got fired for whinging about Apple.

The "key points" that it pulled out from my document were top notch.

In reply to a post by ian_c:

Yeah, that's notification summaries, not what I was referring to - the very nature of headlines makes this sort of thing likely and, of course, nobody in a news organisation every got fired for whinging about Apple.

Agreed, but computer created summaries of notifications or documents CAN cause the wrong conclusions. This was a nice example.

The "key points" that it pulled out from my document were top notch.

Excellent, so the world has four choices, Apple AI, openAI's ChatGPT, Google's Gemini, and MS Copilot.

A fifth choice - read the &*£#@ thing.

Obviously.

This was a test, but out the in Realworldland, sometimes time is a factor - especially when one party might want to weigh the other down in to run down the clock and clock up the bills.

I don't think I will bother with any of them, I disabled Gemini on my phone, Google Assistant is fine for me, not that i use it as I use Alexa on it anyway. Like they are saying about an updated version of Alexa is coming, if you pay for it, not bothered, Alexa is fine.

Looking at the mistakes these new AI things makes, I think I will give them a miss.
I use Alexa to turn lights on and off, wake me up, turn coffee machine on and off and my TV, play music and maybe answer the odd question.
That is enough AI for me.


When I update Mac Os, I will disable Apple Ai, which is only ChatGPT most of the time anyway, and I certainly don't want to use that

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

When I update Mac Os, I will disable Apple Ai,

It comes disabled on Mac, iPhone, iPad. You have to specifically choose to enable.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

It comes disabled on Mac, iPhone, iPad. You have to specifically choose to enable.

Fair enough, that is better than windows then, when all the Ai stuff comes enabled and you have to go through different settings to disable bits of it and not sure if it is all disabled.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Fair enough, that is better than windows then, when all the Ai stuff comes enabled and you have to go through different settings to disable bits of it and not sure if it is all disabled.

Note Apple Intelligence has a BETA tag on the icon.

Which Windows version and type have you experienced the problem?

Edited by jchamier (Mon 16-Dec-24 19:20:19)

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Note Apple Intelligence has a BETA tag on the icon.

, still under beta er?

Which Windows version and type have you experienced the problem?

10, on my own machine and Windows 11 on someone else

It is scattered all over the place, you open the browser it is there, you have it in their search , take so much time to disable it all.
Not that I use Edge myself,

They are also changing the name of the Microsoft 365 app to Microsoft 365 CoPilot soon...

I'm not sure why suddenly there is a fuss about these things. AI such as Siri, Alexa, etc. has been present for years.

Adrian somewhat famously, has without doubt expressed (ceetainly publicly in fora like this) for years if not decades his desire to not have **anything** ‘imposed’ on him - until he’s good and well ready to “step off” - kind of like his outright rejection, slow burn warming to and finally acceptance of FTTP for example. 😎😉

You’re a legend Adrian. 👍

In reply to a post by ian72:

They are also changing the name of the Microsoft 365 app to Microsoft 365 CoPilot soon...

Not a surprise at all, not that it bothers me as I have intention of MS 365 in any form. But, I do think people should have a choice if they don't want the AI rubbish.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

I'm not sure why suddenly there is a fuss about these things. AI such as Siri, Alexa, etc. has been present for years.

Not really the same, Siri, Alexa and so on is not that advance and also not going to be taking I don't think Alexa or Siri is going to be used for customer service anytime soon, even with new AI.

The main problem is this new Ai makes mistakes, if people come to rely on it, a mistake could be a disaster.

It is also pushed onto people much more than what Alexa and siri and Google Assistant was. It is all AI this, Ai that.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Adrian somewhat famously, has without doubt expressed (ceetainly publicly in fora like this) for years if not decades his desire to not have **anything** ‘imposed’ on him - until he’s good and well ready to “step off” - kind of like his outright rejection, slow burn warming to and finally acceptance of FTTP for example. 😎😉

You’re a legend Adrian. 👍

That is true, I will do things my way and at the speed I want to if I want to, I will not be pushed or forced into something I don't need or want, unless I have little or no choice.
Look at fibre, I had no interest in it and still don't need the supduper speed it offers, plusnet pushed and pushed, but in the end they pushed me away. Yeah, I still got fibre, but on a different network.

Labelling it “Beta” and making it optional / opted-out by default is the right approach here I think. 🤔

In reply to a post by ian72:

They are also changing the name of the Microsoft 365 app to Microsoft 365 CoPilot soon...

Since its mostly an advert for 365 and not actually any use (I advise people to uninstall) it won't be a big thing. Unless you like using the web versions in a frame that isn't your chosen browser.

Modest update on real world use, a doc for a client written rather too late at night to be wise...

Proffrede: mostly a very good job, but one instance of replacing a correct UK English spelling with a US version (but Word caught that). Reported that one. One incorrect factual change (although understandable - replaced a pre-Roman name with the Romanised version). Hummed'n'mumbled for a bit and then reported that one too for lols.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Labelling it “Beta” and making it optional / opted-out by default is the right approach here I think. 🤔

That have changed with 15.3, now Apple Intelligence is opt out, so it will still install and take 4-6GB of space up on your drive, even if you disable it. I read that if the space is required, then it will be deleted if not in use.
So it is still in beta and Apple is now making it opt out. I presume not enough people are using it. Maybe that is because people are not interested in using

Apple is getting as back as Microsoft, well at least it can be disabled with one click, windows or at least Windows 10, you need to go around the houses to disable the AI stuff. I knew I should have gone for Linux and use wine to try and get things working and if not find a alternative.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Apple is getting as back as Microsoft, well at least it can be disabled with one click, windows or at least Windows 10, you need to go around the houses to disable the AI stuff. I knew I should have gone for Linux and use wine to try and get things working and if not find a alternative.

Apple is worse than MS, they now forget to do any testing, release with bugs that cripple corporate users of Mac machines.

What AI stuff in Win10? The Copilot app is just a frame for a website. It doesn't download a few GB of models to the local machine unlike Apple Intelligence. With Apple's extreme prices for storage this is a bit cheeky.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Labelling it “Beta” and making it optional / opted-out by default is the right approach here I think. 🤔

That have changed with 15.3, now Apple Intelligence is opt out, so it will still install and take 4-6GB of space up on your drive, even if you disable it. I read that if the space is required, then it will be deleted if not in use.
So it is still in beta and Apple is now making it opt out. I presume not enough people are using it. Maybe that is because people are not interested in using

Apple is getting as back as Microsoft, well at least it can be disabled with one click, windows or at least Windows 10, you need to go around the houses to disable the AI stuff. I knew I should have gone for Linux and use wine to try and get things working and if not find a alternative.

Dunno Adrian. I've been running 15.3 all day today and can't see any (material) difference to when this machine was running 15.2.x

I don’t think it is that not enough people are using it, I think it is just that Apple have decided it is working well enough for enabling it to be the default (a decision we can all choose to agree or disagree with).

(I’d certainly argue that many of these features aren’t ready to come out of beta testing yet, if ever)

If that is the decision they’ve come to them enabling it by default is the only sensible thing to do. It isn’t the norm to make users explicitly enable new features in updated software. If that was the case then most users would never discover there were new features and would never enable them and get the benefit of them.

Don’t forget that many of these new features, while labeled “AI”, are along the same lines as previous machine learning features they’ve added in the past. An example would be the auto reply suggestions in Messages, those are very similar to the generative AI model auto complete changes they made last year.

If it wasn’t for the current AI boom and rush to “keep up”, features like that would just be being enabled by default in the first place and we’d not be thinking twice about them or arguing that every user should have to enable them. But they also wouldn’t have been rushed out in iOS 15 and Apple would just be calling them machine learning features as they have with the machine learning they’ve been adding to iOS for years.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Apple is worse than MS, they now forget to do any testing, release with bugs that cripple corporate users of Mac machines.

What AI stuff in Win10? The Copilot app is just a frame for a website. It doesn't download a few GB of models to the local machine unlike Apple Intelligence. With Apple's extreme prices for storage this is a bit cheeky.

There is the app, and it is embedded in the browser, not that it would work for me as I am not signed in to a MS account on my PC. By all accounts it is more embedded in Windows 11

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Dunno Adrian. I've been running 15.3 all day today and can't see any (material) difference to when this machine was running 15.2.x

did you have AI enabled before you updated? if so then you will not notice any difference

They should at least put a dialogue box up asking if it can be enabled.
The problem is all this is being dumped onto people and it seems like we can;t get away from it.
I have no interest in using it, I don’t need to use, come on, what the hell do I want to make stupid AI generated Emojis for?

i don't use IOS amd the so-called auto reply thing that came onto my mobile phone a few months ago was disabled, I don't want a computer telling me how I should reply.


My main problem with this AI stuff is privacy or the lack of it.

I’ve got to admit that I’ve seen no embedded AI on either of my Windows 11 PCs (or on my Mac, but that’s an Intel one).

It doesn’t bother me what companies put in their OSs as long as I don’t have to use it. And Linux exists for the paranoid. It seems silly to buy an OS from a big company and then complain that they are acting in the way that big companies act.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

There is the app, and it is embedded in the browser, not that it would work for me as I am not signed in to a MS account on my PC. By all accounts it is more embedded in Windows 11

Without an MS account is harder on Win11 than Win10, but you’re signed in to Apple account on your Mac, or Google account on Android. I don’t know why people think MS account is any different.

The copilot app is no different on Win10 to Win11, you just unpin it from start menu and ignore it. Or right click and choose Uninstall. The icon in Edge can be easily ignored by using Chrome, Firefox, Brave, or any of the other browsers. Edge doesn’t have much market share, compared to Chrome! I think in Pro you can even turn off the icon.

At work we centrally disable the free Copilot stuff so our users don’t see the icons, but everyone logs in with an enterprise MS account, gives us more central security configs, and means people can go into Outlook and similar without logging in again.

Home users often don’t use MS Office, they might use Google docs or even pay for Adobe products, or Serif, and use LibreOffice for home word processing. Home users are quite hard to quantify.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

I’ve got to admit that I’ve seen no embedded AI on either of my Windows 11 PCs (or on my Mac, but that’s an Intel one).

It doesn’t bother me what companies put in their OSs as long as I don’t have to use it. And Linux exists for the paranoid. It seems silly to buy an OS from a big company and then complain that they are acting in the way that big companies act.

Linux don't exist for the paranoid, I know a few people the use Linux, and they are not paranoid, they just prefer not having large companies telling them what they should have on their computer.

I did think about Linux before I got the Mac, but I have software that is not available on Linux, well most it to be honest and the alternatives, while suits some people, certainly if they have been using Linux for years, don't suit me.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Without an MS account is harder on Win11 than Win10, but you’re signed in to Apple account on your Mac, or Google account on Android. I don’t know why people think MS account is any different.

Pretty easy to install Windows 11 without an account, Rufus makes it easy and there are other ways. I only sign in to my Apple ID if I use the store and that is not very often, like the MS account, I have no need to have my computer signed in to an account all the time. What Apple Offers by having my computer signed in to their Apple ID is as useful to me as having my Windows computer signed in to a MS account.
As for why people have a problem with MS account, maybe it is because for so long, there was no need to sign in, and it was not forced until Windows 10 Home and Windows 11. Okay, they did try to force it on Windows 8, but dropped that.

As for Google, if you buy an Android phone then not signing in to a Google account makes it almost useless. Saying that, I do know of someone who does have an Android phone and have not got a Google account on it, they seem to manage, but I think they got the phone because it was given to them.
Myself, if there was a Linux phone available that I could still use the few apps I use, then I would go for it.


As for my Mac, I am not forced into using the Apple ID or Apple account as they want to call it now.

The copilot app is no different on Win10 to Win11, you just unpin it from start menu and ignore it. Or right click and choose Uninstall. The icon in Edge can be easily ignored by using Chrome, Firefox, Brave, or any of the other browsers. Edge doesn’t have much market share, compared to Chrome! I think in Pro you can even turn off the icon.

Just getting rid of it from the start menu, don't mean it is still not working in the background.

i installed Brave onto my Mac, using it now, not bad, got a bit of rubbish like silly rewards and their AI rubbish, but it can be turned off, come to think of it, I am not sure if it is turned off.
There is a setting that says, Show Leo icon in the sidebar, on or off,

I don't use the PC for browsing these days, come to think of it, I don't really use it for anything these days apart from a few games., which is why I am thinking of moving it under the table as I have very little reason to have easy access to it apart from turning it on, and I can sort that out with ease,

At work we centrally disable the free Copilot stuff so our users don’t see the icons, but everyone logs in with an enterprise MS account, gives us more central security configs, and means people can go into Outlook and similar without logging in again.

That is the same in our work, we have a sign in thing to sign in to the handsets and computers to do our job/s, All Microsoft, even the stuff that is not MS, we still have to sign in with the same account. It is not the most reliable system.

Home users often don’t use MS Office, they might use Google docs or even pay for Adobe products, or Serif, and use LibreOffice for home word processing. Home users are quite hard to quantify.

My sister-in-law had office 365, but when she passed, my brother did not bother renewing it. My other brother has a older version of Office.
I have Office 2000 here, still works as well on my Windows 10 machine, also has an old word-perfect here. But you are right, a lot of people may use Google Docs or even Word online,.
I used to use Libre office, but since changing to the mac, I tend to use Pages and numbers. I would not use an online office suite, as i prefer my files to be on my computer, not on someone else.

i am just a bit fed up with being forced to use things, or making so difficult that we have little choice, not just with computers either, in everyday life.

And you are an interested and engaged user, just turn it off.

You aren’t the target audience of users who never change the default settings, instantly dismiss any message asking a question like “Would you like to enable…” and who would end up with a device with lots of useful stuff disabled if every significant new feature had to be explicitly enabled.

If you need software that only runs on an Apple silicon Mac then fair enough. Otherwise it would seem to be a perverse decision to buy an Apple silicon Mac when a large part of the rationale behind them is the AI capabilities incorporated in the processor.

I'm happy with my Intel Macs as I've no need for AI and any software that I run exists for Windows, Linux, or Intel Macs.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Linux don't exist for the paranoid, I know a few people the use Linux, and they are not paranoid, they just prefer not having large companies telling them what they should have on their computer.

Linux on the desktop/laptop has been the "next big thing" for 20 years. Its never broken out of the hobbyist world. Unix class operating systems are deliberately obtuse as back in the 1970s the design was apparently made to keep "wizards" (Unix sysadmins) in a job!

In 2025 thanks to web applications the most common Linux computer anyone uses is Android, followed by Chromebooks. Very popular in education (USA schools etc where computers are heavily used). In companies an operating system that can't run MS, Adobe or Oracle software on the laptop/desktop has been the reason Linux on end user devices didn't happen.

Lots of developers in my company run Linux VMs on Windows or Mac (intel) machines; and pretty much ALL the servers we use are Linux based but servers don't run graphical desktops, they are entirely command line. To be fair to MS the same with Windows servers. (Apple doesn't participate in servers).

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

And you are an interested and engaged user, just turn it off.

You aren’t the target audience of users who never change the default settings, instantly dismiss any message asking a question like “Would you like to enable…” and who would end up with a device with lots of useful stuff disabled if every significant new feature had to be explicitly enabled.

Still be nice to be asked and not assume we want it. It is getting on the bandwagon. Would not be so bad, but Apple Intelligence is still beta.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

If you need software that only runs on an Apple silicon Mac then fair enough. Otherwise it would seem to be a perverse decision to buy an Apple silicon Mac when a large part of the rationale behind them is the AI capabilities incorporated in the processor.

I'm happy with my Intel Macs as I've no need for AI and any software that I run exists for Windows, Linux, or Intel Macs.

I moved to Apple because I wanted a change after using Windows for far too many years, I did not like the place windows was going, forced Ms account and pushing AI the way it is, making it difficult for people to change browser
No forced Apple ID on the mac or telemetry and easy to change default browser, try doing it in Windows 11, I have been told it is a bit easier now than it was.

I had a muck around today with Linux and wine, but the software I use would not work, while four i could get some sort of replacement, the one that is for my Cricut machine is not available on Linux. it used to be web based, but they changed that. It is still very cloudy based, which I am not a great fan of, but, I thought there would be a way to change that, but nope.

As i said, it is just stuff being pushed, and not just in the computer world. Need an account for this, need an account for that, even going shopping these days they push a card onto people otherwise they have to pay extra for their shopping. Just data, data and more data

I know about Linux and how long it has been going and that it is going to be the next big thing.

i also know that Linux is the base for Android and for the majority of TV set and set-top boxes.
macOS is or was based on BSD/Unix

A mate have been using Linux for years, he doesn't have any desktop on his machines, but his wife does on hers, but still use Linux.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I did not like the place windows was going

Then I would have to say that I am verys surprised that you liked the place that Apple was going (though it's clear that you are not so keen on that place now). It's been no secret that Apple were moving further away from classic desktops and more into the AI, everything is a service, world for years.

At least the Intel Macs are not going to suffer the AI imposition, though they will get increasingly obsolete with time. I honestly believe that if you want control over your machine you have to move away from any of the big corporations and opt for a community-developed base. But, like you, I still need to run Windows VMs for some software or a Windows machine for games (but that has precious little of my data on it). At least it's easier to isolate a VM from the rest of your data.

I thought Apple may have been different and to a point they are, at least with their AI, you have to give permission for it to access any other AI services like ChatGPT. I think privacy is better with Apple.
I suppose I should have realised that Apple would get into this AI stuff, and at least it is easy to turn off. It is the last update I was a bit annoyed about with them turning it on at default.

I prefer macOS to Windows, even if there are things that I still get confused about.

i suppose this is the way things are now with Ai being shoved in our face, strange really because when I was younger, the Ai thing fascinated me, and it still does to a certain degree, but we live in a different world now, where companies, corporations and the government want to know what were doing 24/7, where privacy don't seem to be a thing and some people just don;t seem to care.

People will give out their info for a few lousy points and now people are being forced to do that otherwise they have to pay more for their shopping.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

, try doing it in Windows 11, I have been told it is a bit easier now than it was.

I've been using Win11 Pro since it launched; never had a problem setting Firefox as my default browser, on multiple machines. Maybe there is an issue in home, but I've always avoided that edition. None of my friends have complained and they use Chrome. Edge is there, but ignored.

I suspect you may have heard some poor experiences and assumed its everyone impacted.

Apple are also going to great lengths to attempt to protect user's privacy when their new features need more GPU/NPU power than is available on the device. The dedicated server hardware and infrastructure (Apple Private Cloud Compute) they've built out to minimise the privacy risks are impressive.

https://security.apple.com/blog/private-cloud-compute/

It seems unlikely many of the other companies will attempt anything like this.

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

It seems unlikely many of the other companies will attempt anything like this.

Its also unclear how many businesses using Mac / iPhone will trust AI tech, lots of IT Directors / CIOs are worried about liability.

I know about the security stuff, but thanks for the link.

Now, because of the way I think, what is Apple getting out of all of this? They are not charging for use, not yet anyway, and if they don't use the data., what are they getting out of it?

Do they think it will sell more devices? I don't think most people are that bothered about AI to be honest.

I have my Echo units dotted around the house, and all they are used for mainly is to tell me the time, turn on lights or the coffee machine, not that the coffee machine thing is working at the moment. Technology er. Listen to music, ask it to do some sums when I can't be bothered to pick up the calculator. Now and again I will ask it for some information.
I am pretty sure most people do the same thing with their echo units, if that will change when they update it, I don't know.

The only useful thing I see from this AI stuff they want top shove on my Mac is maybe the writing tools, but I already use language tool.

As with any investment they make in their platform, they hope it will make more people buy their devices and use their services than if they didn't build out this functionality. And they hope it will make existing customer stick with them.

In reading the rest of this comment, understand that I am far convinced how useful all the large language model stuff will be in the long term. I use it extensively for technical stuff, as when you use it with a good understanding of its limitations, in areas where you have enough understanding to spot its mistakes, it can be very effective.

Apple AI covers a lot of different and varied features.

Writing tools - this is all the "summarise this", "make this more formal" stuff which uses Apple LLM models and also "Compose text" which uses ChatGPT to generate completely new text from prompts

I can definitely see quite a few people using those features, not everyone is confident in their writing so I can see it having some appeal. There are also subtle but unmissable (not Clippy) prompts to use it, so I think there is a chance people will actually discover these features.

There will of course be news stories of people who claim to have got sacked because Apple AI summarised something for them and made a significant mistake (which it definitely will do, it is an LLM).

Apple Mail - the mail app attempts to identify important messages, it summaries messages when viewing them in a list and it has "smart reply" stuff to attempt (basically fancy auto complete for suggesting whole replies to emails). It also has automatic filing of emails into categories (like GMail has done for a long time),

I think plenty of people will use all of that, though as with all LLM stuff it remains to be seen if Apple can crack things like making the summaries accurate, they have a long way to go from what I've seen so far. I think a lot of people will use the automatic categories, if Apple make it work well (for me it hasn't, but I've seen other people who love it).

Messages - has conversation summaries and "smart reply" stuff

Safari - webpage summaries, can be fairly handy, but few people will ever use it because it is two taps deep...

Phone and audio recordings - transcripts and summaries of those transcripts. Looks handy, but I expect few people will ever notice they can record a call or record audio in Notes (the age old discovery of new features problem)

Image Playground - generates [censored] images with a very Apple UI (mainly there to try and stop you from making images of famous people or making porn/other content some people find upsetting). The sort of thing that people might use for a few weeks and then get bored

Genmoji - lets you create your own emoji with a prompt

Many people love emoji, I can see this getting lot of use (more message threads where you have to guess what people actually mean 😢)

Image Wand - lets you generate an image from a sketch you have made.

I can see this being actually useful for people, if Apple can get it to generate good quality images.

Photos - they have used it to make the search far, far better. You can also use a prompt to create a memory and they've added a reasonably ok generative image clean up tool.

Plenty of people will use the search and the clean up tool (for those who actually realise they can edit their photos)

Notifications - this is what made the headlines with clumsy and inaccurate summarisation of BBC New app notifications.

Plenty of people will leave this enabled, lets see if Apple can actually make it give accurate summaries...

Siri - the current changes to Siri are mostly UI. But it now uses the ChatGPT to answer some stuff inline and it will also for some queries hand you off to ChatGPT proper.

People aren't going to be impressed with Siri in 18.3, because it doesn't have the potentially transformative changes that Apple announced last year.

I've probably missed some stuff.

-------------------

When you say "I don't think most people are that bothered about AI to be honest", I think you are probably right. They probably aren't bothered about the nebulous concept of "AI".

But they will be bothered about actually useful or fun new features that are enabled by "AI" (if they do actually turn out to be useful/fun). Apple AI is many things beyond just a chatbot.

And on the subject of Siri, at the moment is appears to be universally recognised as being worse and Alex and Google Assistant (though in my experience Alexa on my aging Echo Show is just as bad as Siri).

The changes Apple have planned for Siri, if they can actually make them work, would be game changing. Obviously Goole/Amazon/OpenAI/etc are also working to to the same things.

The changes are roughly:

- combine the current basic "turn on this", "set a timer" interface with something akin to asking ChatGPT questions
- giving Siri access to various data on your device (contacts, emails, messages, data in other apps)
- giving Siri the ability to take actions within any app that chooses to make itself available to Siri

If they can actually make that work well, then you Siri could actually be that dreamed for (by some at least) digital assistant that understand your personal context:

"Siri, what time does my aunts flight get in ?"

"Her email from Tuesday says she gets in at two this afternoon. Her flight is with BA, arriving at terminal 5"

"How long will it take me to get there"

"With traffic the drive to Heathrow will be around 45 minutes. Her flight is due in an hour from now, do you want me to message her and let her know you are leaving soon ?"

"Yes please"

"Ok, I've messaged her and I've put a route into Maps for you. Don't forget that last time you went to Heathrow you got a parking ticket for stay in the short stay car park for too long"


"What is the longest you can stay in short stay ?"

"60 minutes"

and as you are driving to the airport

"I have an update on your aunt's flight, looks like it is going to be 30 minutes late arriving. Do you want me to plan a route to the medium stay car park ?"

"Yes"

Who knows if Apple (or anyone else can actually pull this off), if they do I think the EU is going to insist they make all the hooks into iOS to do it available to everyone else as well...

So, in summary:

More caveats than a software license agreement.
More caveats than a used car salesman’s promises.
More caveats than a reality TV contract.
More caveats than an online dating profile.
More caveats than a magician’s trick reveal.
More caveats than an insurance policy’s terms and conditions.
More caveats than a politician’s campaign speech.
More caveats than the ingredients list on a diet snack.
More caveats than a Wi-Fi hotspot in a coffee shop.
More caveats than a time traveler’s warning.
More caveats than a genie’s wish-granting manual.

(ChatGPT's finest work, humorous phrases is not an area it shines in, though the genie one is ok, I'd have gone with "More caveats than a genie’s instruction manual")

Edited by andynormancx (Sat 01-Feb-25 09:17:42)

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Now, because of the way I think, what is Apple getting out of all of this?

Trying to lock people into their ecossytem so they buy a replacement Mac, iPhone, iPad, and upsell to Vision Pro, and of course all the services AppleTV+, iCloud+, Fitness+ etc. The competition in AI is hot, and most have really good desktop apps for Mac (even before Windows) such as ChatGPT.

what are they getting out of it?

If they pull it off, reputation, it can be done privately, you don't have to freely give your data to the likes of Meta or Google.

I don't think most people are that bothered about AI to be honest.

In corporate it is the biggest thing for 15 years. In the home most people are ignoring it except for picture edits.

I have my Echo units dotted around the house,

Echo isn't AI, and Amazon has lost billions on the Alexa experiment, they have no use in business.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/11/amazon-alexa...

The only useful thing I see from this AI stuff they want top shove on my Mac is maybe the writing tools, but I already use language tool.

In my company we are already determining we can give people many hours of drudgery back; by getting the computer to do the tedious work. This is for complex jobs such as Software Development. The same technologies that underpin Apple's current home user AI tools are capable of doing other things, the Transformer Model / LLM.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Trying to lock people into their ecossytem so they buy a replacement Mac, iPhone, iPad, and upsell to Vision Pro, and of course all the services AppleTV+, iCloud+, Fitness+ etc. The competition in AI is hot, and most have really good desktop apps for Mac (even before Windows) such as ChatGPT.

Is AI really going to lock people into the ecosystem? The majority of people I know that have an Apple product only have an Iphone and have no intention of getting any other Apple products. Okay, it is only a tiny amount of people in the world, but I wonder how that expands to the rest of the world. I know one person who have a mac like me, love macs, had them for years she has, but will never buy a iPhone and one person that has mac, iPhone, Ipad and what ever else.
Me, I have no interest in buying an iPhone, too expensive, and I don't like IOS.

I realise AI is hot, and it is being pushed onto us, but do Joe public think it is hot?

what are they getting out of it?

If they pull it off, reputation, it can be done privately, you don't have to freely give your data to the likes of Meta or Google.

In corporate it is the biggest thing for 15 years. In the home most people are ignoring it except for picture edits.

Yes, corporate, until it goes wrong. We have AI now to keep an eye on stock, it is not great, it goes belly up now and again, and when it does work, it gets things wrong. The old system, well not classed as AI, did a better job, mainly because it had someone putting in information about forecasts, IO mean how much a product is going to sell, instead of a computer trying to work it out.
oh, you sold that many parsnips last week, so you are going to sell that much this week. Then you get a load of parsnips delivered, that is going to take ages to sell through, then a few weeks later, you don't get any parsnips at all.
Just using Parsnips as an example.

We have also got so-called AI scales, in that they can tell what is put on it, more hassle than the old ones. Okay, that is not all to do with them being AI, but they seem to be less reliable than the ones we had before and the camera need cleaning every hour or so. No idea how it gets so dirty


The best one was the old spring scales that hang up when I first started there, but with people being pushed to use Self scan and those silly handsets, it is not possible to have them now.

Echo isn't AI, and Amazon has lost billions on the Alexa experiment, they have no use in business.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/11/amazon-alexa...

It has to have some sort of AI, because it needs to know where to get the data and what to look for. It may not be AI in the ChatGPT form. What amazes me is how quick it is, I just asked it where is my home city, and it came back with the answer less than a second, well after it said good morning.

I know Amazon are losing money with it, that is why they are working on a new AI system with Claude, but they have problems with it at the moment. They will charge for that and hope people will go for it. I expect a fair few might. I doubt I will, it does what I need.

The whole idea of Alexa was to get people to order using it, but I have never used it for that, even stuff I buy often.

In my company we are already determining we can give people many hours of drudgery back; by getting the computer to do the tedious work. This is for complex jobs such as Software Development. The same technologies that underpin Apple's current home user AI tools are capable of doing other things, the Transformer Model / LLM.

This is corporate and not home use and is fine as long as it don't muck up. I think even if Joe public leave AI enabled on their computer or phones, it don't mean they will use it. I had a email on my Android phone from Google, saying i can now use Gemini, I have not really used Google Assistant, so no chance of me using Gemini, I like how they, like Apple and Microsoft, enable it as default, NOT.

Alexa is the default voice assistant thing on my phone as it is more useful, or would be if my Switchbot hub has not decided to play up.

I think at some point all this AI stuff is going to come back to bite us, if it is not already. The amount of energy that is needed to keep these systems running is enormous, can't be doing much good to the environment.

My main problem is the pushing of it onto people, putting it as default. Just have a notice come asking if you want it enabled.

i know what it covers and thanks for the long post

But some of us don't want it, and yet it is being pushed more onto us.

The sudden rise of generative with LLMs and diffusion image generation has really messed up the terminology around all of this.

What the scales are doing wouldn’t have been described as being AI before. We’d have talked about it using a machine learning image recognition model. It is almost certainly using a neural network based image recognition model, like many technologies have been doing for decades.

They might be a pain as an employee, as a customer I find the new scales an improvement on tapping around on those terrible resistive touch screens to find the right product. Also as a customer the hand held scanners are a great improvement on putting everything lose in the trolley, then have to queue to have a teenager throw it all down the checkout and having to frantically pack it into bags.

It is entirely possible that your new “AI” powered stock system doesn’t actually have much AI in it and it is just not a good system…

Taking about hand held scanners, Sainsbury’s do need to have a rethink about how they handle them at Christmas. I had a random check and I had missed scanning one single item (72p worth in a trolley load worth £220). Which meant a complete rescan, done in the trolley because there was no where else. But then the systems were overloaded in some way, that meant the rescan couldn’t be transferred to the self service til to pay. Which meant another full rescan into the real til in the self service area. But we had to wait 15 minutes for the transfer to fail first. All while the queue of people needing a full rescan was building.

Took me forty minutes between finishing shopping and paying. On the plus side, I did my best to help the staff with the scanning, I was polite about it all and they were seeming to manage to be unstressed about the situation. And I’ve queued over 30 minutes at Christmas just to go through normal checkouts.

It is all a bit different from when a teenage me was part of the launch staff for the first southern ASDA, back in the 1980s. If you were paying with a cheque you had to take your cheque guarantee card and a driving licence/passport/council rent book to the customer services and get a stamp put in your cheque book. And the protocol if the tils went down (powered by a couple of IBM XT machines) was that if you were currently being checked out, a member of management was to look at each trolley load, estimate the price and then halve it (as far as I know that protocol only ever got used one for about 10 minutes).

What Alexa does also wouldn’t have been described as AI until the last year or two, it would have been talked about as using machine learning (and even then only for parts of its implementation). It will be using multiple neural network based models to listen for the wake word and then to covert the spoken words to text.

Everything else past that point very probably didn’t start by using machine learning/AI to get the job done. The first versions of Alexa/Siri/Google Assistant likely just used a big pile of largely human written to parse the text and understand the intent of the request.

No doubt they are now using at least some machine learning models on that parsing/intent determining side now. But I don’t believe any of them are yet using anything like ChatGPT to do that side of it.

Using a LLM like ChatGPT to do the things that Alexa/Siri/Google Assistant do, while also being able to answer questions like ChatGPT does, is still a developing field of research. If you hear people talking about AI and agents, that is the problem they are trying to solve.

Amazon don’t care whether you use Alexa to order or not. They care whether the presence of Alexa in your home/on your device makes you more likely to order.

Our Echo Show is endlessly trying to come up with new ways to show ads, which are always enabled by default. It is about time I replaced it with an old iPad running a Home Assistant dashboard.

I didn’t just post that to tell you what it was.

It was to demonstrate that Apple AI isn’t a single thing, but a whole series of very different features. Some of which seem likely to be popular and most which would have been enabled by default in the past without anyone making a comment, because they wouldn’t have had the scary “AI” attached to them.

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

The sudden rise of generative with LLMs and diffusion image generation has really messed up the terminology around all of this.

True,

What the scales are doing wouldn’t have been described as being AI before. We’d have talked about it using a machine learning image recognition model. It is almost certainly using a neural network based image recognition model, like many technologies have been doing for decades.

I don't disagree, but the system still has to recognise the difference between say a parsnip and a banana, sure it has to be in the database, and it can't just go around the net looking for a parsnip, shame really, it may do a better job.

They might be a pain as an employee, as a customer I find the new scales an improvement on tapping around on those terrible resistive touch screens to find the right product. Also as a customer the hand held scanners are a great improvement on putting everything lose in the trolley, then have to queue to have a teenager throw it all down the checkout and having to frantically pack it into bags.

I spent 10 minutes yesterday trying to get a set of those scales working, the roll has run out, but it is such a pain to reload and since I don't do it very often, more so of a pain. I was not even on the department but was pass it.

I did not mind the old scales, it was not as if you were typing on the screen, just pressing a picture. I can understand why they changed, it is to stop people fiddling the system, or cut it down anyway. With the old system, someone could print a ticket out for something that was cheaper that what they were buying, the new scales more or less stops that, but there are still ways to put a cheaper ticket on an item if you really want to do that. Easier to get away with it these days with so many selfscans. Scan and shop is a bit of a risk if you get checked.

It is entirely possible that your new “AI” powered stock system doesn’t actually have much AI in it and it is just not a good system…

I don't know, we were told it was coming months ago and when it did, it went belly up almost a week later, and it keeps having problems, it still needs input from us, which is why gaps are scanned often. No doubt some of that is because of shrink, unknown loses. Theft, breakages that are not scanned or shortages from the depot that is not logged or known about, that short of thing leads to what is known as shrink.

This new system is supposed to look at weather, how much is being sold, time of year and other stuff. I don't think you can beat human input into this to be honest. Technology don't work for everything.

Taking about hand held scanners, Sainsbury’s do need to have a rethink about how they handle them at Christmas. I had a random check and I had missed scanning one single item (72p worth in a trolley load worth £220). Which meant a complete rescan, done in the trolley because there was no where else. But then the systems were overloaded in some way, that meant the rescan couldn’t be transferred to the self service til to pay. Which meant another full rescan into the real til in the self service area. But we had to wait 15 minutes for the transfer to fail first. All while the queue of people needing a full rescan was building.


Took me forty minutes between finishing shopping and paying. On the plus side, I did my best to help the staff with the scanning, I was polite about it all and they were seeming to manage to be unstressed about the situation. And I’ve queued over 30 minutes at Christmas just to go through normal checkouts.

Then write or email their customer service. I don't use it myself, I know very little about it. I do see people being checked and think that I can do my shopping and get out before they do, so I don't see the point, also, there is a need for a loyalty card to use it.
If a customer asks me about them, I normally direct them to the customer service or to someone on checkouts. The last time I told a customer that I knew nothing about them and told them to go to customer service, I was taken into the office by a manager. By all accounts that was the wrong thing to do. I should have taken them to the customer service.

It is all a bit different from when a teenage me was part of the launch staff for the first southern ASDA, back in the 1980s. If you were paying with a cheque you had to take your cheque guarantee card and a driving licence/passport/council rent book to the customer services and get a stamp put in your cheque book. And the protocol if the tils went down (powered by a couple of IBM XT machines) was that if you were currently being checked out, a member of management was to look at each trolley load, estimate the price and then halve it (as far as I know that protocol only ever got used one for about 10 minutes).

What Alexa does also wouldn’t have been described as AI until the last year or two, it would have been talked about as using machine learning (and even then only for parts of its implementation). It will be using multiple neural network based models to listen for the wake word and then to covert the spoken words to text.

Everything else past that point very probably didn’t start by using machine learning/AI to get the job done. The first versions of Alexa/Siri/Google Assistant likely just used a big pile of largely human written to parse the text and understand the intent of the request.

No doubt they are now using at least some machine learning models on that parsing/intent determining side now. But I don’t believe any of them are yet using anything like ChatGPT to do that side of it.

Things have changed and not always for the better. i miss the days when you could just go into a shop, do your shopping, wait at the checkout and be served pretty quickly, because they had enough checkouts and staff and not these stupid selfscans that fail. Well some fail. The ones in Aldi are pretty good, even if the beep is pretty loud on them
Now, we have to put up with people in front with loyalty cars and not only that the supermarkets want people to use apps, which takes longer as people fiddle around with their phones. This is one of the reason why I tend to shop at Aldi more these days, no silly loyalty cards.


U

sing a LLM like ChatGPT to do the things that Alexa/Siri/Google Assistant do, while also being able to answer questions like ChatGPT does, is still a developing field of research. If you hear people talking about AI and agents, that is the problem they are trying to solve.

And it may bite them on nose at some point.

Amazon don’t care whether you use Alexa to order or not. They care whether the presence of Alexa in your home/on your device makes you more likely to order.

Our Echo Show is endlessly trying to come up with new ways to show ads, which are always enabled by default. It is about time I replaced it with an old iPad running a Home Assistant dashboard.

I don't have an echo show, I will not have a camera connected to the net in my house and the show has one. I know my phone have cameras, but most of the time they will either see the ceiling or not see anything at all as it is on the table.
I do have a webcam, that I use for discord now and again, but it is not permanently plugged in.

i had a muck around with home assistant on a Dell thin client machine i got from Ebay, that is what I got it for, but it don't support my smart thermostat, so i decided not to bother wiht it. Just got to find a use for the Dell now.

As for Apple AI and Sequoia itself, i reinstalled Sequoia and turned off the AI right away, and so far i have not had anything from Apple, saying, please use our AI, but then I am not signed in to the Apple account as it is now called.

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

I didn’t just post that to tell you what it was.

It was to demonstrate that Apple AI isn’t a single thing, but a whole series of very different features. Some of which seem likely to be popular and most which would have been enabled by default in the past without anyone making a comment, because they wouldn’t have had the scary “AI” attached to them.

I know what it is and what it does, I do read and watch videos, it is not just about the AI part, it is like Microsoft that seems to think that we all want these new things and features and while Apple does make it easier to disable them, and Apple privacy is certainly better than MS, they need to leave the choice to people and ask them if they want these features.

I can understand why a mate changed to Linux years ago, and he said he still doesn't regret it. I wish I changed to it years ago, when I was younger and could grasp things better, but such is life.

There is one problem he has found, his wife likes my Cricut and is thinking of getting one herself, which means she will have to either get a tablet running Android or IOS, or a computer running Windows or a Mac. There used to be an online version of Design space, but it looks as if it is not available now. I did try to get it running on Wine, but it did not work.
I suppose a VM could be used. His wife uses Linux as well.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I don't have an echo show, I will not have a camera connected to the net in my house and the show has one. I know my phone have cameras, but most of the time they will either see the ceiling or not see anything at all as it is on the table.

I do have a webcam, that I use for discord now and again, but it is not permanently plugged in.

If you are really that paranoid then you could the built in physical camera cover or just put some tape over it. Easily solved.

Physical camera cover

Just who you do think wants to watch you anyway ?

I'm sure you'll have other reasons you don't want a Show, but objecting to the camera is daft for multiple reasons.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I can understand why a mate changed to Linux years ago, and he said he still doesn't regret it. I wish I changed to it years ago, when I was younger and could grasp things better, but such is life.

You know what other software adds features to new releases without ask the user to say "yes" to every one of them ?

Linux and its many distributions.

Hell, occasionally distros swap out the whole windowing system with a new version.

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

If you are really that paranoid then you could the built in physical camera cover or just put some tape over it. Easily solved.

Physical camera cover

Just who you do think wants to watch you anyway ?

You don't know, they can be hacked, I don't mean just shows, I mean any cameras. i do have some outside, but that is just showing the steps to the house and the other one is facing the gate of my next door neighbour as it is a right of way for me, but no one else.

I do know of someone who have tape over the camera on her laptop, I said I could disable the camera if she wanted. I did not go that far when I had a laptop with a camera. The camera I use for chats now and again is getting on now, not that i use it that often, most of the chats are audio only.

I'm sure you'll have other reasons you don't want a Show, but objecting to the camera is daft for multiple reasons.

I did think about getting one a few years back, but decided I had no need for one, the dots I have do the job I want, I have no need for one with a screen.

Going back to Sequoia, i wonder what stuff they will dump in the next version and how much further they will take this AI stuff?

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

You know what other software adds features to new releases without ask the user to say "yes" to every one of them ?

Linux and its many distributions.

Hell, occasionally distros swap out the whole windowing system with a new version.

As my mate says to me, you have more control over Linux than windows or MacOs. He don't use a desktop. But i have never known a distro to swop out a desktop, unless for some reason they do change it. But if I downloaded say mint with Cinnamon, it will keep with cinnamon.


The fact that there is choice is a good thing, you can have light Linux distros with hardly anything or no apps, or heavy distros with a load of apps.

The thing with windows is that they put apps in, which is difficult if not impossible to uninstall, i have noticed that with Apple and macOS, podcast, stocks, Books, not possible to remove, or not that I can see anyway. I have an e-book, so certainly not going to read books on my Mac, not interested in stocks and certainly would not listen to podcasts on my Mac, so why not allow them to be removed?

I will have a look to see if they can be removed some other way, but they can't be dragged into the bin

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

As my mate says to me, you have more control over Linux than windows or MacOs. He don't use a desktop.

Linux without a desktop is a server; not a computer for domestic use. The likes of Zoom, Webex, Teams are all painful on Linux too.

But i have never known a distro to swop out a desktop, unless for some reason they do change it.

Same, and all the distros I use don't install a desktop as they are designed for servers.

The thing with windows is that they put apps in, which is difficult if not impossible to uninstall,

maybe on Home edition.

so why not allow them to be removed?

you can remove the icons on iOS/iPadOS but it may not give you storage back. Apple assumes you only buy their products to use the software that they provide. At least Keynote/Numbers/Pages can be fully deleted along with Garageband.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Linux without a desktop is a server; not a computer for domestic use. The likes of Zoom, Webex, Teams are all painful on Linux too.

A server is still a Computer. I presume there is some GUI on his machine for software, but he uses the command line. Been using Linux for years, so he knows his way around it.

Same, and all the distros I use don't install a desktop as they are designed for servers.

That is nice for you, at home or work? I have watched videos on You Tube, with some people having server racks in their homes, what the hell do they need them for? Granted my mate has a few machines that are used for some sort of server, one to control the cameras, one a Nas, one for the router and I have no idea what the other one is for. but it certainly not a large rack like some people have.

The thing with windows is that they put apps in, which is difficult if not impossible to uninstall,

maybe on Home edition.

And on pro, maybe Enterprise is different.

you can remove the icons on iOS/iPadOS but it may not give you storage back. Apple assumes you only buy their products to use the software that they provide. At least Keynote/Numbers/Pages can be fully deleted along with Garageband.

it is possible to remove the apps, so I have read, but because of the way Mac Os works, it will not make any difference in space.

i like Number and pages, I have no use Keynote or Garageband

There is no need to wonder, they said back at WWDC 2024 what the next bit is.

It is all the major Siri improvements that I laid out elsewhere in the thread. All the usage of your own data to inform Siri queries and Siri reaching into apps to take actions on your behalf.

I suspect it will only come to iPhone in the first version. It is far from clear where it will actually appear in iOS 18, this next step is the really hard problem to crack.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

You know what other software adds features to new releases without ask the user to say "yes" to every one of them ?

Linux and its many distributions.

Hell, occasionally distros swap out the whole windowing system with a new version.

As my mate says to me, you have more control over Linux than windows or MacOs. He don't use a desktop. But i have never known a distro to swop out a desktop, unless for some reason they do change it. But if I downloaded say mint with Cinnamon, it will keep with cinnamon.

If I remember correctly Ubuntu swapped out the whole window management and related apps between one version and the next. And I believe they aren't the only distro to do this at some point (which has more than once lead to forks of the distro when people disagree with the decision).

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

The fact that there is choice is a good thing, you can have light Linux distros with hardly anything or no apps, or heavy distros with a load of apps.

It definitely is a plus in many ways. But it also means that there is no one "Linux", there is an ever expanding spectrum of favours of Linux (and many more flavours of the different components that go together to make up a distro). I think this is the main thing that has prevented Linux from ever getting traction in the desktop market.

(and before the GNU folks arrive, yes I know that Linux is technically just the kernel, though GNU was dead in the water until the Linux kernel kick started it)

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

i have noticed that with Apple and macOS, podcast, stocks, Books, not possible to remove, or not that I can see anyway. I have an e-book, so certainly not going to read books on my Mac, not interested in stocks and certainly would not listen to podcasts on my Mac, so why not allow them to be removed?

I will have a look to see if they can be removed some other way, but they can't be dragged into the bin

This is down to the way modern macOS secures the operating system. In the past you could have just deleted things like that.

But now the whole OS, including those apps, is stored in a readonly filesystem that is signed to stop malicious software from changing any of the OS. There is a separate read write file system that sits alongside it, that has you data in it.

macOS does some magic to combine these two filesystems to make them appear to be one disk. This also allows you to restore the OS if something has broken it in some way, with the guarantee that none of the user data is changed during that restore.

I am surprised they've not yet given users the option to at least hide those built in apps then don't want (like the have on iPhone).

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I have watched videos on You Tube, with some people having server racks in their homes, what the hell do they need them for? Granted my mate has a few machines that are used for some sort of server, one to control the cameras, one a Nas, one for the router and I have no idea what the other one is for. but it certainly not a large rack like some people have.

Who says they need them ? For many people a home server rack is a hobby, just more machines to tinker with.

Many of those racks only have a couple of machines and a switch in them.

I don't have a rack, but my home office does have a Linux server (my main file store and it runs half a dozen Linux virtual machines for various things), a Mac mini that runs a few things (and it also my spare Mac incase of problems with my MacBook), a Ubiquiti rackmount CCTV server (that is just sat on the floor) and a Windows machine that is effectively a server (being used for playing around with running various "AI" stuff locally).

And there is a whole network of Ubiquiti switches/access points/gateways/cameras throughout out the house.

I certainly don't "need" most of this stuff, but I do enjoy messing about with it.

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

There is no need to wonder, they said back at WWDC 2024 what the next bit is.

It is all the major Siri improvements that I laid out elsewhere in the thread. All the usage of your own data to inform Siri queries and Siri reaching into apps to take actions on your behalf.

I suspect it will only come to iPhone in the first version. It is far from clear where it will actually appear in iOS 18, this next step is the really hard problem to crack.

. All the usage of your own data to inform Siri queries and Siri reaching into apps to take actions on your behalf? That sounds scary. I will certainly keep AI turned off.

I have an Android phone, I doubt very much if I will get an Iphone, too expensive, and I am not fond of IOS. So no chance of it coming to my phone. I don't think AI or Gemini as Google calls it is as integrated into the OS as Apple AI seems to be.

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

If I remember correctly Ubuntu swapped out the whole window management and related apps between one version and the next. And I believe they aren't the only distro to do this at some point (which has more than once lead to forks of the distro when people disagree
with the decision).

I know Gnome changed a lot, years back, It was not a bad Desktop and then they changed it. I prefer desktops like Xfce. I don't mention Ubuntu to may mate, his face turns red and his eyes bulge out:). No Linux user should use Ubuntu he says, they are as bad as MS and Apple.

Lots of versions of Ubuntu with different desktops, I prefer MXlinux or mint, if i did not get the Mac I think I would have gone with MXlinux.

It definitely is a plus in many ways. But it also means that there is no one "Linux", there is an ever expanding spectrum of favours of Linux (and many more flavours of the different components that go together to make up a distro). I think this is the main thing that has prevented Linux from ever getting traction in the desktop market.

(and before the GNU folks arrive, yes I know that Linux is technically just the kernel, though GNU was dead in the water until the Linux kernel kick started it)

I wish now I had started with Linux years ago, but the first time I saw Linux it was a right pain to use and i did not have the time to muck around with it. Now it is a different thing in that Linux is easier to install and use, another mate used it on his laptop, I installed it as a dual boot with Windows, and he used the Linux part more than Windows. But he was not running much software on it, just a word processor and doing some browsing and emails. I would have loved to change his music computer in the studio to Linux, but the software for him was not there. i do know of someone else who uses Linux for creating music, but they have been doing it for a while.

This is down to the way modern macOS secures the operating system. In the past you could have just deleted things like that.

But now the whole OS, including those apps, is stored in a readonly filesystem that is signed to stop malicious software from changing any of the OS. There is a separate read write file system that sits alongside it, that has you data in it.

Yes, that is what I have read, which is why removing them would make no difference

macOS does some magic to combine these two filesystems to make them appear to be one disk. This also allows you to restore the OS if something has broken it in some way, with the guarantee that none of the user data is changed during that restore.

I am surprised they've not yet given users the option to at least hide those built in apps then don't want (like the have on iPhone).

Yes, i suppose they could have allowed people to hide them, but then how do you get them back if you decide you want them? With Pages and numbers, you can get them from the App store. I noticed when I reinstalled macOS it don't reinstall Pages, numbers or Keynote, which did surprise me. I am not a fan of software being installed for me and it is the same for MacOS and Windows in that I prefer to choose the software I want to use. While I do like numbers and Pages, certainly for something that is free, it is good that there is a choice to get rid of them if not needed.

I know it may not seem like it, but i do like my Mac, it is a quiet fast machine, macOS, even after a year using it still have its quirks which I am still getting used to, like moving files, saying that I use a file manager for that.
Yes, I don't like all this AI stuff that is being pushed onto us and i wish Apple did things differently in that regard in having it out in and opt out.
but I suppose that is the way things are going, I grew up in different days, when things were not pushed onto you. Seems to be the thing these days.

But I am still glad I change to Mac.

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

Who says they need them ? For many people a home server rack is a hobby, just more machines to tinker with.

Many of those racks only have a couple of machines and a switch in them.

I don't have a rack, but my home office does have a Linux server (my main file store and it runs half a dozen Linux virtual machines for various things), a Mac mini that runs a few things (and it also my spare Mac incase of problems with my MacBook), a Ubiquiti rackmount CCTV server (that is just sat on the floor) and a Windows machine that is effectively a server (being used for playing around with running various "AI" stuff locally).

And there is a whole network of Ubiquiti switches/access points/gateways/cameras throughout out the house.

I certainly don't "need" most of this stuff, but I do enjoy messing about with it.

you are right, maybe I am getting old

In my younger days I would have mucked around with that sort of stuff, i had servers myself, i do have a NAS, but it is a prebuilt Terramaster thing, not powerful, but does the job I need.

At the moment, my switchbot hub is annoying me, for some reason it don't recognise anything apart from a temperature sensor and even when that is next door to it, the signal is very weak.
I think the hub have had its day, so like a fool, I decided to buy a new one and some more temperature sensors, these can also go outdoors., I ordered three of them and get a free mini hub. I have also ordered the hub 2. Cost me £100 in total, I must be crazy. Don't answer that.

I have to cut down spending, with the Cricut, printer and now this lot, I have spent over a grand in the last couple of months, or I will do when I paid for it all.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

A server is still a Computer. I presume there is some GUI on his machine for software, but he uses the command line. Been using Linux for years, so he knows his way around it.

That is nice for you, at home or work? I have watched videos on You Tube, with some people having server racks in their homes, what the hell do they need them for? Granted my mate has a few machines that are used for some sort of server, one to control the cameras, one a Nas, one for the router and I have no idea what the other one is for. but it certainly not a large rack like some people have.

Mostly at work, my job is in the IT field for 25+ years. However I have had, and still ahve Windows, Mac and Linux in my home environment.

And on pro, maybe Enterprise is different.

My employer uses enterprise, but I use Pro and I've not hit anything I couldn't remove, including the free adware games (MS and third party)

it is possible to remove the apps, so I have read, but because of the way Mac Os works, it will not make any difference in space.

Andy answered this.

i like Number and pages, I have no use Keynote or Garageband

In the days of Libre Office, and Google Docs, I don't see why anyone needs a word processor or spreadsheet that creates files that can't be opened on at least one other platform. The history makes sense, but my employer must be 60% Mac now, and nobody uses the old iWork tools, as you can't email them to a customer.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Mostly at work, my job is in the IT field for 25+ years. However I have had, and still ahve Windows, Mac and Linux in my home environment.

I see. I do have a muck around with Linux now and again, I have MX linux on another drive on my PC, I just choose what to boot from by pressing f10 to get the boot option screen.

My employer uses enterprise, but I use Pro and I've not hit anything I couldn't remove, including the free adware games (MS and third party)

I have just had a nose and you are right i have not really mucked around with 10 for a while, so it has improved in that respect. Still can't get rid of Game bar.

In the days of Libre Office, and Google Docs, I don't see why anyone needs a word processor or spreadsheet that creates files that can't be opened on at least one other platform. The history makes sense, but my employer must be 60% Mac now, and nobody uses the old iWork tools, as you can't email them to a customer.

you can export in different formats, including epub from Pages., which I have not seen before. for home use it is fine to be honest. Libre office is okay, but even that have problems with word compatibility. I should use Libre office to be honest as I have a few documents that i saved using it, but after using Pages, Libre office looks old.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

you can export in different formats, including epub from Pages., which I have not seen before. for home use it is fine to be honest. Libre office is okay, but even that have problems with word compatibility. I should use Libre office to be honest as I have a few documents that i saved using it, but after using Pages, Libre office looks old.

Thats what we had in the early 2000s when companies used LotusSmartSuite (AmiPro/WordPro/123 etc) or WordPerfect/Corel Office, and other things including OpenOffice.org

None were 100% file compatible. Even Libre is not 100% round trip compatible. So corporates that exchange emails with attachments, rather than posting printed, or emailing PDF, found its too much pain over years.

Despite this, the use of word processors is decreasing as people use online Wiki tools (famous Atlassian Confluence); what the next 10 years looks like is unclear.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I have an Android phone, I doubt very much if I will get an Iphone, too expensive, and I am not fond of IOS. So no chance of it coming to my phone. I don't think AI or Gemini as Google calls it is as integrated into the OS as Apple AI seems to be.

Maybe not yet, but I have little doubt it will be.

Also Gemini is further along than Siri, it does now have the ability to take various actions on the phone while also providing the usual conversational LLM/GPT stuff.

Looks like Amazon will be probably be announcing their version of Alexa combining what it does now with LLM/GPT functionality.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/amazon-set-releas...

"interesting" times...

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Yes, i suppose they could have allowed people to hide them, but then how do you get them back if you decide you want them? With Pages and numbers, you can get them from the App store.

They'd do it just the same, using the App Store. That is what they already do on iPhone/iPad, some of the builtin apps can deleted, which actually just hides them (because they uses the same readonly signed filesystem approach). The apps that can be hidden this way have App Store entries, so you just unhide them by taping "Download" in the App Store.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

At the moment, my switchbot hub is annoying me, for some reason it don't recognise anything apart from a temperature sensor and even when that is next door to it, the signal is very weak.
I think the hub have had its day

Oh, you don't want to see the mess that is my home automation setup. A horrible mixture of HomeKit (Apple), Hue (Philips), Amazon smart plugs/Alexa, Eve Weather sensors (some HomeKit, some Matter) and now native Zigbee.

Making sense of that and simplifying all of that is a work in progress, which Home Assistant is helping with a lot. Aiming now to just simplify everything down to native Zigbee via Home Assistant (I had hoped that Thread+Matter was going to be the answer, but so far for me they have been totally unreliable).

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Thats what we had in the early 2000s when companies used LotusSmartSuite (AmiPro/WordPro/123 etc) or WordPerfect/Corel Office, and other things including OpenOffice.org

None were 100% file compatible. Even Libre is not 100% round trip compatible. So corporates that exchange emails with attachments, rather than posting printed, or emailing PDF, found its too much pain over years.

Despite this, the use of word processors is decreasing as people use online Wiki tools (famous Atlassian Confluence); what the next 10 years looks like is unclear.

I know what we used to have, i have a copy of word-perfect here and the Lotus suite, windows. not Mac.
I also remember using Final writer on the Amiga. I know Lib re office not 100% word compatible.
i use Word at work to print out notices, like don't use the bailer, it is broken type thing and also to print out waste transfer sheets. The so-called paperless office has not gone so well, only have to look at the amount we print at work.

Businesses may use Wiki tools, but I am not a business and while I don't use a WP as much as I used to, I still do for letters and also other reasons.

Who knows how things will be in ten years time, some things come back around and if the governments in different countries try to stop encryption, like our government want to do with Apple iCloud, then people may start storing stuff locally again,

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

Maybe not yet, but I have little doubt it will be.

Also Gemini is further along than Siri, it does now have the ability to take various actions on the phone while also providing the usual conversational LLM/GPT stuff.

Looks like Amazon will be probably be announcing their version of Alexa combining what it does now with LLM/GPT functionality.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/amazon-set-releas...

"interesting" times...

I don't buy expensive phones, so I doubt they will have the resources to run some of the stuff and I presume even if it is integrated, there will be some way to disable it.

As for Alexa, i heard it was coming, but I read that they have had some problems with it, and it caused a lot of problems with smart devices, I presume they have sorted that out. I will keep to normal Alexa. i can understand they want to make money from it and why they will charge for the new AI, but I am not interested in it, have they solved the hallucinating problems with LLM?

It is interesting to see if it works.

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

Oh, you don't want to see the mess that is my home automation setup. A horrible mixture of HomeKit (Apple), Hue (Philips), Amazon smart plugs/Alexa, Eve Weather sensors (some HomeKit, some Matter) and now native Zigbee.

Making sense of that and simplifying all of that is a work in progress, which Home Assistant is helping with a lot. Aiming now to just simplify everything down to native Zigbee via Home Assistant (I had hoped that Thread+Matter was going to be the answer, but so far for me they have been totally unreliable).

Same here really, I have a load of Wi-fi smart plugs, some smart TRVs for the radiators and a smart thermostat that most people have not heard off as I had it fitted by a energy company a few years ago, that is the thing that will not work in home assistant, it is not recognised. I have Philips Hue and switchbots to turn on my coffee machine, outside backlight and my kitchen light.

I also have some swithbot curtain movers, but they don't work on my curtains, i think they are two heavy, shame really.