Will I get lower latency with a 4g modem than USB tethering?

Hi there,

So yeah my question is would one get a lower latency on one's connection when using a 4g modem, like for instance the "TP-LINK Archer MR600 WiFi 4G+ Router" with a cabled connection to the computer compared to USB tethering your phone to the computer.

Provided it is the same network and the same location of course.

And if so, does anyone have recommendations on which 4G/4G+ router to buy?

Can't advise on latency, but after having tried a TP-Link TL-MR6400, a Huawei B535 and a Huawei B628, I settled on a Tenda 4G06.

On paper, it's not as good as the other products, but in actual use it achieves better speeds, and its bundled rabbit-ear antennae work better than any external directional or omni I've tried. The '06 also has the benefit of supporting VoLTE, so you can plug a wired phone into it and use any bundled minutes in your plan (e.g., the £16/month unlimited-everything from Three).

Everything being equal, it's not automatically going to give you lower latency. Depending on your current connection strength/stability you might be able to better position the router e.g. next to a window, to improve connection quality. Which may improve jitter and be a qualitative upgrade.

In reply to a post by lo22:

So yeah my question is would one get a lower latency on one's connection when using a 4g modem,

Maybe! USB was never designed for networking and puts load on the CPU that network cards (WiFi or Ethernet) do not.

If you have a mobile phone that can create a WiFi hot spot, this would be a quick way to tell before you spend money, as decent LTE or 5GNR routers are EXPENSIVE if you want 2019 era technology.

2019? Or should the if be "unless" you want?

Edited by pluralist (Fri 12-Aug-22 18:32:31)

In 2019 I had Android and Apple phones that could do 4 way aggregation on LTE. (4G), but the mobile networks are still supplying modems that can only do 1 band at at time. 2020 onwards is pretty much NR (5G) improvements, the LTE (4G) categories haven't moved much.

Cost is upto the individual

£700 for a top spec 5G unit, which competes with modern Android phones (which cost £300)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/NETGEAR-Nighthawk-Mobile-Ro...

or a 4G only unit:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/NETGEAR-MR1100-100EUS-Night...

Buyer beware.

I was just confused by your: "... as decent LTE or 5GNR routers are EXPENSIVE if you want 2019 era technology", as without further explanation there's no reason anyone would want 2019 technology . Hence my thinking you meant "unless".

Edited by pluralist (Fri 12-Aug-22 19:53:23)

In reply to a post by pluralist:

Hence my thinking you meant "unless".

True, would make more sense. I blame the heat. (And the ISP provided boxes for £40 to £70 are generally 2010/2012 technology at best).

Hi,

Thanks for the suggestions!!

How about this one:

https://www.currys.co.uk/products/tplink-archer-mr60...

It says it can do 4G+ would that not be an improvement over 4G? Or is 4G LTE the same as 4G+?

And can you really get a better reception with those small modems, than a big one with antennas? (And I know this question might sound a bit uninformed)

Btw I also saw this comment on YouTube:

I think you'll get less ping with a Nighthawk M5. The 5G generation is all about latency and jitter reduction. Even if you don't technically have 5G support, you might find some of the optimizations in the new generation of hardware (e.g. even just 802.11AX / Wifi 6 ) mean that gaming performance is improved. The M5 might completely obliterate your ADSL's latency. With a 5G client device (iPhone 12), I see latency as low as 15ms on 4G networks, where 4G devices have 20ms+.

So does that hold at all? Could it make sense to get a 5G modem even if there is bad 5G signal in your area, as it will have lower latency and jitter on 4G?

In reply to a post by lo22:

https://www.currys.co.uk/products/tplink-archer-mr60...
It says it can do 4G+ would that not be an improvement over 4G? Or is 4G LTE the same as 4G+?

LTE is the name of the technology (Long Term Evolution) that the world standardised on and it is a Fourth Generation technology. (The competing technology WiMax didn’t win).

4G+ is a meaningless marketing badge, but it often means the unit supports some features of the second release of LTE technology known as LTE-Advanced. However Advanced covers a LOT of different technologies.

In this case the Currys page says 300 Mbps, which means the unit probably does 2 channel carrier aggregation, each channel has a theoretical max of 150 Mbps, if the network is transmitting 20 MHz for each carrier. So that device is likely a 2014/2015 specification, similar to iPhone 6s or Galaxy S6

If you are using a USB 4G modem, it is likely to be single carrier maximum.

It really depends which mobile network you use, and where in the UK you are, as in rural areas most networks deploy less capacity than in cities (think single lane roads, or 4 lane motorways).

And can you really get a better reception with those small modems, than a big one with antennas? (And I know this question might sound a bit uninformed)

That depends how good the signal strength is indoors. You can fit antenna to the Netgear boxes, and you can get antenna that go outside. They are not cheap.

If you have a 4G phone try a speed test and see what it shows… better if its on the same network.

Or let us know the network and your approximate location in the UK.

In reply to a post by lo22:

So does that hold at all? Could it make sense to get a 5G modem even if there is bad 5G signal in your area, as it will have lower latency and jitter on 4G?

The comment is suggesting the newer hardware is faster even if you don’t have a 5G signal, so it can handle the communications with your computer and the 4G network quicker than the older hardware and reduce your ping.

Its very subjective and hard to predict if this is true, as mobile networks are nothing like fixed line.

Thank you so much for all the info! I really appreciate it.

So what you are saying is that the currys 4G modem is using 2014/2015 technology.

And the one you are recommending (the NETGEAR 4G one) is using newer 2019 technology? And that is essentially why you are recommending it? And it kind of looks like something one would use on the go, not something for using in your home!? haha

I live in Oxford, and I have tested and O2 is the carrier with the best signal at my home.

In reply to a post by lo22:

So what you are saying is that the currys 4G modem is using 2014/2015 technology.

And the one you are recommending (the NETGEAR 4G one) is using newer 2019 technology?

To reduce latency you need to have the most capacity, HOWEVER it is not a guarantee, it is a guess. You could spend a lot of money and have the same experience.

I strongly recommend testing using a recent mobile phone using WiFI hotspot/tethering using various networks on PAYG SIMs before you spend any money.

Each 4G (LTE) device is given a Category, you will find that Currys LTE modem router is likely Category 6, which is why they say "max 300 Mbps" speeds. The iPhone 6s is also Category 6.

A modern Android phone, such as the OnePlus Nord from July 2020 is LTE Category 18, which means a theoretical download speed of 1200 Mbps.

And that is essentially why you are recommending it? And it kind of looks like something one would use on the go, not something for using in your home!? haha

I am suggesting you find a modem with the highest LTE Category that you can find that fits the budget.

I live in Oxford, and I have tested and O2 is the carrier with the best signal at my home.

O2 isn't the best at rolling out capacity (e.g. road lanes); especially in what is a Vodafone controlled area. (west half of England).

This page shows most of the O2 masts in Oxford (found by Android phone users running the Cellmapper app).

From here you can see that most of the cell sites offer transmission Bands of 1, 3, and 20. Occasionally there is a Band 40 transmission. So in some areas to get the best performance you need a modem that can pick up and use 4 transmissions together. This is known as "Carrier Aggregation", and a bit like driving on a 4 lane motorway (e.g. M4 from Reading to London now), which is much faster than the A34 to Oxford which is often congested as only 2 lanes.

A Category 6 device can use 2 transmissions together. A Category 10 or higher can use 4 tranmissions together.

Pretty much all the USB modems I have seen from Vodafone, and Three, including the tiny "mifi" boxes that Three used to give away are Category 4 or lower, so provide connectivity but not speeds or capacity. They were great in 2013 when 4G arrived, and still work but are not the best if you have capacity/speed requirements.

A second hand OnePlus Nord android (1st gen) from a recycling shop might be a useful test device.

So O2 in Oxford, if you are close to one of the masts with Bands 1, 3 and 20, would mean:
Band 1 = 10 MHz
Band 3 = 5 MHz
Band 20 = 10 MHz
So join them together and you get 25 MHz of capacity.

Swapping to Vodafone, whom have used Bands 1, 7, 20, and would mean:
Band 1 = 10 MHz
Band 7 = 20 MHz
Band 20 = 10 MHz
Join them together and you have 40 MHz of capacity, significantly more than O2.

Three has mostly two bands, totalling 20 MHz of capacity.

EE has mostly 20+10 on Band 3, 10+15 on Band 7, and 5 on Band 20 = 60 MHz

So it really depends on what you can receive indoors, as it may not be from a physically closest mast; and each Band (frequency) may not make it indoors.

Testing is the only way to know with PAYG SIMs in a phone.

Once again! Thank you so much for your brilliant explanation!

Well so I have a Samsung Galaxy A52:

https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_a52-10641.php

And I have SIM cards from all the 4 major carriers: O2, Vodafone, EE and 3

So far I have mostly tested latency, as gaming is my major objective. And O2 has the lowest and most stable latency. I have not tested speeds too much, but I will do that over the weekend. And I will let you know how that goes. And do not worry I will test and confer with you guys before I splash the cash on a 4G modem

Also I have been using this site:

https://www.mastdata.com/

Where it shows that in my location O2 has the best signal. It has "good" whereas the others have "low average" and EE only has 2G, haha!

In reply to a post by lo22:

Once again! Thank you so much for your brilliant explanation!

You're welcome.

Well so I have a Samsung Galaxy A52:
https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_a52-10641.php
And I have SIM cards from all the 4 major carriers: O2, Vodafone, EE and 3

Nice one. That A52 is likely LTE Category 15, "theoretical" 800 Mbps max, so should easily test the networks near you.

So far I have mostly tested latency, as gaming is my major objective. And O2 has the lowest and most stable latency. I have not tested speeds too much, but I will do that over the weekend. And I will let you know how that goes. And do not worry I will test and confer with you guys before I splash the cash on a 4G modem

Cool, probably means a) you get best O2 signal indoors, and b) that there are less users in your area on O2 than the others, which gives you more of the capacity.

Phones and modems will show you signal bars, but only for one of the transmissions being picked up. In many cases the best one for indoors (Band 20) is often the worst for capacity, so it can be worth trying tests in a window as well as further into the room.

Also I have been using this site:
https://www.mastdata.com/
Where it shows that in my location O2 has the best signal. It has "good" whereas the others have "low average" and EE only has 2G, haha!

As you can see that site is a bit wrong! It was apparently created from the closure of the Ofcom run Sitefinder which was not kept up to date by the networks, EE's predecessors withdrew voluntarily and never contributed 3G information, never mind 4G or 5G. Is is interesting to see where mast sites might be in your road/area, but just be aware the data is quite likely 10 years or more out of date.

Lots of mast sites have changed in the last 5 years with operators working together (e.g. O2 & Voda sharing mast locations); and closing duplicate sites. This has helped them reduce costs, instead of having two poles on the side of the road, they can have one pole, and two large cabinets (one per network operator).

You are better off looking at crowd sourced sites such as Cellmapper, or just looking for strange looking items in the roads around you. As you have Android you can run Cellmapper itself (free app, you don't need to create an account) on your phone.

The streetworks poles are pretty obvious, but cell sites can be hidden on edges of buildings, and in London O2 are using micro cells which are often mounted on lamp posts and might even look like small WiFi boxes!

So I just have a look at cellmapper and using Google Maps for distance measuring. I can see that I am the following:

700 metres from a tower with one dot with band 1, 3, 20 and one dot with band 40 (O2)
850 metres away from one tower with one dot with band 1, 20 and one dot with band 40 (O2)
930 metres from a tower with one dot with band 1, 3, 20 (O2)
930 metres from a tower with one dot with band 1, 3, 20 and one dot with band 20, 40 (O2)
So for two of the locations there are two dots on cell mapper, I hope this makes sense?


And for Vodafone it is the same just only one dot on each of these 3 locations with band 1, 7, 20. Or the last one list only has band 1, 20 for Vodafone.

So can this explain the better signal from O2? Or is it just because the network is not as busy?

And what is an ideal distance to a mast in terms of signal? Probably the closer the better. But is there a threshold where the quality really drops?

In reply to a post by lo22:

700 metres from a tower with one dot with band 1, 3, 20 and one dot with band 40 (O2)
850 metres away from one tower with one dot with band 1, 20 and one dot with band 40 (O2)
930 metres from a tower with one dot with band 1, 3, 20 (O2)
930 metres from a tower with one dot with band 1, 3, 20 and one dot with band 20, 40 (O2)
So for two of the locations there are two dots on cell mapper, I hope this makes sense?

Thanks useful info. The second dot is probably because O2 has done some recent work to add Band 40 (a useful increase in capacity, at 2300 MHz) and the cellmapper site hasn't yet worked out if they are one mast with all 4 transmissions, or two masts close together.

And for Vodafone it is the same just only one dot on each of these 3 locations with band 1, 7, 20. Or the last one list only has band 1, 20 for Vodafone.

So can this explain the better signal from O2? Or is it just because the network is not as busy?

Depends what you mean by "better" ? More bars on the screen, or higher speeds? The first could be down to building construction and whatever is between you and the mast. Speeds can be down to number of users as well as how much capacity is there in the first place.

And what is an ideal distance to a mast in terms of signal? Probably the closer the better. But is there a threshold where the quality really drops?

Its not that simple, the phone and any modem will jump around masts as needed (and directed by the masts) if they can pick up lots of them. This is seriously complicated at this point, and I don't understand it, there are some 1,500 page books on how LTE works available for lots of money

What you want is to pick up as many bands as possible with good signal quality, apps such as cellmapper, and nPerf, or Net Monitor are apps on the Play Store that can show more details about the signals you are picking up in your home.

Just a point about Cellmapper, which I agree is great.

I find it and at least one other similar does not completely stop running after I swipe it off the screen. It continues to do its job and uses up considerable battery reserves. I haven't found a way to close it down other than possibly rebooting the phone. I say possibly because to make sure I don't reboot. I turn the phone off then back on after half a minute or so.

In reply to a post by pluralist:

I haven't found a way to close it down other than possibly rebooting the phone.

That is by design. You need to tap the menu and choose Exit, and not just swipe it off. If you do just swipe you will see the icon in the status bar remains

With it running (foreground or background) you can start and stop data collection using the record button. You can also choose to have "live upload" on or off, this uploads point collected to the website immediately, or only when you use the upload button. These features make it possible to use the app with a PAYG SIM that has no credit, as you can upload data when back on WiFi.

Edited by jchamier (Sun 14-Aug-22 09:56:38)

Too funny, but thanks! 🙂
That never occurred to me, because I think everything else (other than my other cell info ones) either logs itself out after a swipe or does so on a timeout whether swiped or not.

The cell info apps have to talk to a low level function call (API) that only appeared in Android 4.2, and was greatly improved after that. Before that you had to root the phone to get information from the modem chip, as Android wouldn't let an app talk to the chip.

For those whom are really into discovering how the cell networks operate, there is a very low level application called NSG (Network Signal Guru) PlayStore or vendor site that required a rooted phone with a Qualcomm modem. The free version gives summary info, but the paid version (expensive) shows absolutely everything there is to know about the signalling, however to understand it you may need to read a few 500 page books on LTE, or have a degree in mobile network communications!

This guy (Peter) uses NSG in pretty much all of the videos about the network advances, probably one of the best YouTube channels to follow if you are interested in mobile network technology. He used to post regularly on another forum, but graduated, and is now busy with his day job in an unrelated field, he does still do the videos though which is amazing!

https://www.youtube.com/user/scivids1999

Edited by jchamier (Sun 14-Aug-22 11:24:50)

That sounds interesting, I'll take a look some time. I shan't be going deep though. I'm so far behind you I'd never catch up, and that guy sounds to be far ahead of almost everyone except those actually developing the stuff.

In reply to a post by pluralist:

that guy sounds to be far ahead of almost everyone except those actually developing the stuff.

Its pretty similar to what I posted above, about the various transmissions (known as 'layers' in the jargon) and the aggregation. What Peter and others are doing is watching how the 4 UK operators are trying to gain customers/improve experience for customers, and manage the incredibly ever increasing load of usage.

So I got around to doing some speedtesting, and the results are a bit shocking honestly!

Well here they are:

The best location in the house I tried I got:
O2:
5.20, 8.56 and 6.04 Mbps DL,
6.63, 5.80 and NA (timed out) Mbps UL,
38, 41, 39 latency in ms (jitter 4, 17, 10)

EE:
Really bad results, mostly timed out

Vodafone:
1.83, 5.05 and 3.48 Mbps DL
2.69, 3.35 and 2.92 Mbps UL
70, 48, 61 latency in ms (12, 12, 6)

So the weird thing on O2 I get the "4G+" symbol, meaning I guess it does 4G band aggregation? But I still get very low speeds!? Also I get like 1-2 bars of signal so it is not like the signal is really bad... I got 2 bars with EE somewhere else in the city and could get like 100 Mbps DL.

For the Vodafone, I do not even have access to 4G I get the "H+" which I guess is something equivalent of "3G+".

Also my phone should have access to all the bands listed. So that should not be a problem either.

I live a bit at the bottom of a little hill, so perhaps this is the issue? Anyhow, I guess I should look into a 4G router with good antennas, rather than one with access to a lot of bands?

In reply to a post by lo22:

So I got around to doing some speedtesting, and the results are a bit shocking honestly!

Those are a bit lower than I was expecting; you may be better off with a fixed line service for broadband.

So the weird thing on O2 I get the "4G+" symbol, meaning I guess it does 4G band aggregation? But I still get very low speeds!? Also I get like 1-2 bars of signal so it is not like the signal is really bad... I got 2 bars with EE somewhere else in the city and could get like 100 Mbps DL.

The 4G+ means you're getting two bands, but it doesn't mean the bands themselves have much spare capacity. With those speeds I would guess a lot of people using in your area.

For the Vodafone, I do not even have access to 4G I get the "H+" which I guess is something equivalent of "3G+".

Yes, that is a 3G signal (3G, H, H+); and the + does not mean aggregation, 3G works in a very different way. (And 3G is turning off from next year).

I live a bit at the bottom of a little hill, so perhaps this is the issue? Anyhow, I guess I should look into a 4G router with good antennas, rather than one with access to a lot of bands?

Yes, probably a good idea as your speeds are low, to get best reception to keep what you have. Hopefully speeds increase after holiday month is over.

Hi there,

Well the case is that the fixed line I can get (and that I have is a 2.6 Mbps / 0.4 Mbps all copper ADSL...), so that is why I have been looking into getting a 4G alternative, that could have higher bandwidth. But there should be fibre to the premise coming in the not too distant future!? Is there any way of getting further insights into those plans?

Curiously I tried the 4G quite early this morning, and it was way faster, I got speeds with Vodafone of around 40 Mbps, also I could get 3 bars of signal! So I guess it is because it is less busy at that time of day? Then later in the morning it was down to the same old speeds, haha!

And do you have a 4G router that you can recommend with good antennas?

In reply to a post by lo22:

Is there any way of getting further insights into those plans?

I'd ask on this site in the Fibre forum, depends which network provider is building in your area, but have a look at https://bidb.uk a third party site that is very useful.

hen later in the morning it was down to the same old speeds, haha!

that sounds like congestion/usage sadly. The number of bars shouldn't change on 4G, (3G has a thing where under load it would reduce signal transmissions, but that was insane, so it wasn't kept for 4G or later)

And do you have a 4G router that you can recommend with good antennas?

Worth searching, the poster in this thread "pluralist" has a signature with the 4G router they use when they moved from fixed line to mobile data for the home.

I have an older Netgear which isn't available anymore that I use when travelling, as my job takes me to a lot of hotels.

Edited by jchamier (Mon 15-Aug-22 11:46:48)

Note that in my sig it is only the phone that can get 5G, and that only in the front bedrooms, which isn't much use. The new Three 5G mast is probably threequarters of a mile away in a straight line, the other side of railway embankment and further masked by well-established trees that are considerably higher then the embankment. Less than a minute's walk from here to the houses that have small back gardens up to it.

The 4G+ signal is nothing to do with that mast. The router, which has Three-specific firmware, does need the occasional reboot, but when it does I switch it off to give it a rest in case it is overheating. It can get hot in that south-facing bedroom. Also bad weather seems to affect the signal strength

In reply to a post by pluralist:

Also bad weather seems to affect the signal strength

Sometimes damp leaves on trees can decrease (attenuate) radio signal, one of the reasons that newer masts are taller (to go above tree line); as previously they were hidden in trees.

Well. Thank you so much for all the advice I really appreciate it!

If you come by Oxford let me know and I will buy you a pint

I think I will buy Tenda 4G06 as suggested here in this post.
I mean I am not a 3 customer, and 3 does not have very good coverage here where I live, so I do not it makes sense to buy that one for me.

It'd be good to hear how things go once you've had it a while.

Edited by pluralist (Mon 15-Aug-22 22:47:08)

You're welcome, and good luck!

If someone wonted a decent 4G+ router today, Would i give them a choice of either

Netgear orbi LBR20 https://cacombos.com/device/LBR20
Netgear MR1100 https://cacombos.com/device/MR1100-100EUS

as theses 2 routers do;
LTE Bands 1, 3, 7, 8, 20, 28, 38, 40, 41
LTE 4x4 Bands 1, 3, 7 and would suite either 3 or EE since no other 4g modems support the extra band for Three LTE 4x4.

And for Vodafone and O2 since they support the extra band 38
Netgear MR2100 https://cacombos.com/device/MR2100-100EUS
LTE 4x4 Bands 1, 3, 7, 38

And for either Vodafone or O2
LTE 4x4 Bands 1, 3, 7, 38, 40
Netgear Nighthawk M5 5G MR5200 https://cacombos.com/device/MR5200-100EUS

Huawei B535S-232
1, 3, 7, 8, 20, 28, 32, 38 but no LTE 4x4 bands
https://cacombos.com/device/B535S-232

Edited by francisuk25 (Wed 31-Aug-22 10:11:10)

In reply to a post by francisuk25:

If someone wonted a decent 4G+ router today, Would i give them a choice of either

Check for LTE Category before worrying about band combinations. Most phones are LTE Category 18 or later, but most 4G routers are Cat 3 or Cat 4.. Try and get above LTE Category 6 for a) more resilience and b) chance of higher sustained speeds.