Extending broadband to outbuilding-help appreciated

Hi

I am hoping someone will take pity on me & help me out as I do not really know what I need or if is even possible.

I would like some more information/help, or to be pointed in the right direction of help to do the following:
I would like to extend the broadband from within the house to an office in an outbuilding. I know this can be done, in fact it already is but not in a reliable way. Currently the broadband comes up into the office wireless by using an edimax extender( or repeater, I'm not really sure what it is, sorry). But the connection is never guaranteed, constantly drops out and on the whole is useless.

What I would like to do is use cable (cat5 cable from what I have already read) from the router (I assume it gets plugged in just as the Ethernet cable would?) in the house, which would then go through some underground pipework (route pre planned when the outbuilding was converted) and up to the office - a distance of 50-60m approx. Assuming I am OK so far ( please tell me if I am not), what equipment do I need in the office to attach the cat5 cable to? Ideally, or rather necessarily, the broadband in the office needs to then become wireless so that 2+ laptops plus occasional tablet/phone can use the WiFi. Is this possible? Cost is not a major issue - well, obviously best value for money is always the best bit it is more important to get a decent and reliable connection than it is to do it cheaply if that makes sense.

If there is anything else you need to know please let me know. There is power in the office (but different system to the house).

Sorry if I sound dumb, but I have found some info online which always starts out promising but then goes very technical on me! If anyone has some time to help me I appreciate it very much, or alternatively please point me in the right direction so I can find answers for myself.

Thanks,

Rook

A Cat5 or 6 ethernet cable from your broadband router to the office would connect to a wireless access point AP in the office.

"Good practice" is probably to use solid core cable and put a wall socket on each end, then use a patch cable (ethernet cable like you plug a pc in with) to connect a router port to that in the house and another to plug the AP in at the office end.

http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/ShopDetail.asp?... - Access point
http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/ShopDetail.asp?... - cable
http://www.amazon.co.uk/DOUBLE-TWIN-Faceplate-Module... - wall socket

(for illustration only)

Fairly easy.

You need to use outdoor/external Cat5e or Cat6e.

Ethernet will run a distance of 90M plus 5m tail at each end - in practice it can go further however you need to take care. Cable comes in a variety of gauges 28, 26, 24, 23, 22 with a higher number being thinner. Your distance is 60m to which you will need to add some at each end inside the buildings so you could be approaching 80 or 90 metres by the time it is routed. So select a 24 or 23 AWG cable.

There are two types of cable. PE insulated which gives the water and sunlight protection and the SWA which provides additional armouring. If you are running in a duct (underground pipe) then PE should be sufficient.

The supplier I use: http://www.fscables.com/Data/Structured+Wiring+Cable... and I would probably choose C5ED unless I knew I needed screened or wanted to move to Cat6e. Cat5e is capable of handling Gbit (1000Mbit) speeds and Cat6e 10Gbit.

At the house end, close to the current modem or switch: Install a standard Electrical backbox with a faceplate mounted RJ45 socket. Terminate the Cat5e into the IDCs on the socket and then use a short patch lead to your existing hub/router.

Install a similar RJ45 in the office.

The first check will be to connect a PC directly to that connection and all should work fine.

Then find a suitable switch and WAP - connect the switch to the socket and you then have 4 or 8 ports available. Connect the WAP to the switch and you have your wireless connection. The switch will multiplex all of your connections onto the single cable - and connect back to the main hub (assuming the hub is capable), at Gbit speeds.

Edited by MHC (Tue 16-Jul-13 11:01:22)

In reply to a post by yarwell:

http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/ShopDetail.asp?... - cable


(for illustration only)

I would not recommend that cable for outdoor use - even in a duct.

In reply to a post by MHC:

The supplier I use: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2840/9292956886_cec1c2...

Am I missing the clue? You get your networking kit via WW2 fighter plane?

That's it! No idea how I managed to get a 12 hour old link from the clipboard though!

Thanks Yarwell & MHC, I will give it some thought and work out what I need. Your advice is much appreciated.

One thing MHC, you appeared to link to your supplier but when. I clicked the link I got a picture of a plane. A link to your supplier would be great so I could contact them and make sure I get all that is needed.

Thanks again

Rook

In reply to a post by MHC:

That's it! No idea how I managed to get a 12 hour old link from the clipboard though!

The original was much better!

I have edited the link!

It should go to:

http://www.fscables.com/Data/Structured+Wiring+Cable...

FS cables will sell you 60, 80, 100 metres of external cable at sensible prices!

Properly armed a Spitfire could use it's guns to create 100Mbps - by disintegrating Fokkers!

In reply to a post by rook55:

Sorry if I sound dumb, but I have found some info online which always starts out promising but then goes very technical on me!

I know the feeling, and dare I say it, if you're not a techie, MHC's post might be a little technical too, although it's perfectly proper (sorry MHC ).

In the most simplistic terms, you'll need an armoured cable solution (per MHC's post). You want a modem/router (ideally with a switch capable of 1Gbit) at the house connected to the exchange (Internet). I would personally use the fastest cables you think you'll need for the lifetime of the setup.

In fact, I would also run a spare cat five cable, and a couple of phone extension cables (you never know). Once you've done the underground work, you won't want to do it again.

At the house, you would have faceplate(s) to the cable run for whatever cables are going to be in use, with identical faceplate(s) at the office end.

Again, per MHC's post, in the office, you would have a network switch to a WAP, but I would also have an external hard drive (NAS) attached to the switch for continuous backups from the laptops, and have it takes backups to an identical NAS in the house (on another router port). If you lose one, there's always the other, and they would backup/restore at cable speeds, assuming your switches are 1Gbit.

All cables should be RJ45 connections within the buildings, while at the back of the faceplates they will be IDC terminations (again, per MHC's post). See below for an example:

http://www.keene.co.uk/pages/cat/jpgs/UTPTP_REAR.jpg

Don't worry too much about the wiring. Once you've decided on your solution (double check before diving in), you can always post about the wiring itself, or anything else.

Googling for 'Spitfire cables' didn't work.

DOH!

In reply to a post by camieabz:

I know the feeling, and dare I say it, if you're not a techie, MHC's post might be a little technical too, although it's perfectly proper (sorry MHC ).

In the most simplistic terms, you'll need an armoured cable solution (per MHC's post). You want a modem/router (ideally with a switch capable of 1Gbit) at the house connected to the exchange (Internet). I would personally use the fastest cables you think you'll need for the lifetime of the setup.

In fact, I would also run a spare cat five cable, and a couple of phone extension cables (you never know). Once you've done the underground work, you won't want to do it again.

Don't agree with armoured - certainly not SWA. The OP already has a pipe/duct running so overcoated PE should be adequate.

An extra Cat5e could be useful for the phones - unless VOIP is used and it may be better to just get external 'phone cable for that - smaller diameter and less cores. CW1128 http://www.fscables.com/Signal++Control/Telephone+Ca...

MHC - thanks for the updated link!

Camieabz - thanks, yes MHC's post was very technical but was broken down so I could think about it in small chunks! I appreciate you breaking it down further for me. At least I know I am thinking along the correct lines and it is possible, I just need to decide what exactly how to do it and then I will be back I am sure!

In reply to a post by MHC:

Don't agree with armoured - certainly not SWA. The OP already has a pipe/duct running so overcoated PE should be adequate.

Ahh, I missed the duct bit. Even better. In that case, throw in some 30A socket cable and a some co-axial too.

(kidding)

In reply to a post by camieabz:

In that case, throw in some 30A socket cable

I think that even MHC's very good solution might fail if the OP doesn't have electrical power going out to the Out-Building!

In reply to a post by johnjburness:

In reply to a post by camieabz:

In that case, throw in some 30A socket cable

I think that even MHC's very good solution might fail if the OP doesn't have electrical power going out to the Out-Building!

Says the OP

In reply to a post by rook55:

There is power in the office (but different system to the house).

So in addition to the cable, you'll need a couple of faceplates for either end http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cat5e-Single-Socket-Ethernet...

A couple of back boxes http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cat5e-Socket-Ethernet-Networ...

An insertion tool http://www.amazon.co.uk/KRONE-Type-Punch-Telephone-I...

A couple of patch cables http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cat5e-RJ45-Ethernet-Network-...

and a wireless access point, if you can't use the existing one in your office http://www.amazon.co.uk/Edimax-EW-7228APN-150Mbps-5-...

In reply to a post by rook55:

There is power in the office (but different system to the house).

If by that you mean a different phase then you have to be extremely careful about earthing and shielding!

In reply to a post by Stevenage_Neil:

In reply to a post by rook55:

There is power in the office (but different system to the house).

If by that you mean a different phase then you have to be extremely careful about earthing and shielding!

Would you care to explain EXACTLY how that will be a problem, provided both electrical installations meet the appropriate standards.

Just look at how many offices have networks? They will be supplied with 3-phase power and different parts of te building will be on different phases. The comms room often has equipment on all three. the network cables are fed all around the building with no problems.

Likewise - the incoming VDSL or ADSL signal. It may not only be on a different phase but almost certainly a different supply through different sub-stations.

"Would you care to explain EXACTLY how that will be a problem, provided both electrical installations meet the appropriate standards."

Such installations are installed by professionals who know what they are doing and the associated, possible risks.

I was just issuing a warning to a "possible" non-professional.

Edited by deleted (Tue 16-Jul-13 13:15:39)

Years back they always used to say you couldn't use copper cable between buildings on different electrical supplies - something to do with unbalanced earths? Probably got that completely wrong as not an electrician but I know they always said it shouldn't be done without some sort of way of balancing it.

I believe I have also seen other things since that say this is complete tosh - but I don't have definitive sources for either stance.

Any electricians out there that can confirm/ridicule?

In reply to a post by MHC:

Just look at how many offices have networks? They will be supplied with 3-phase power and different parts of te building will be on different phases.

That was the explanation given as to why my office was connected by fibre to the other block. Electrical isolation.

In reply to a post by ian72:

Years back they always used to say you couldn't use copper cable between buildings on different electrical supplies - something to do with unbalanced earths? Probably got that completely wrong as not an electrician but I know they always said it shouldn't be done without some sort of way of balancing it.

I believe I have also seen other things since that say this is complete tosh - but I don't have definitive sources for either stance.

Any electricians out there that can confirm/ridicule?

On a balanced three phase supply there is theoretically no need for a "earth/neutral". (Look at electricity pylons - they have three main conductors but only one, barely visible, earth/neutral conductor). The currents on the individual phases, vectorially sum to zero.

there's a bigger potential difference between two phases than between one phase and earth - 230V vs 415V approx - that's the origin of the concern. So two "lives" have a big difference in voltage relative to each other if they're fed from different phases.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

there's a bigger potential difference between two phases than between one phase and earth - 230V vs 415V approx - that's the origin of the concern.

Thank you! That is all I intended to convey.

Edited by deleted (Tue 16-Jul-13 13:46:27)

My post was purely meant as a joke (hence the "wink")!

In reply to a post by MHC:

Properly armed a Spitfire could use it's guns to create 100Mbps - by disintegrating Fokkers!

Didn't realise we had Spitfires during WW1! Focke-Wulf (190)?

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by MHC:

Properly armed a Spitfire could use it's guns to create 100Mbps - by disintegrating Fokkers!

Didn't realise we had Spitfires during WW1! Focke-Wulf (190)?

We didn't. But the German Luftwaffe certainly had Fokker aircraft at the outbreak of WW II and then used the Fokker factories to build more aircraft.

But for that to cause a problem you would need an isolation failure at two locations. One failure would cause a problem anywhere. There is no earth connection between the two buildings - Cat5e only carries data signals. and the devices at each end provide isolation.

Go back to to ordinary telephone lines - is there ever a problem running those between buildings? Either adjacent or miles apart? on different phases, different substations ...

I've tried using my 230v kit on an industrial system, but it refuses to co-operate.

I'm sure it's just a phase though.

/gets coat

If the distance was substantially greater than the 90 metres, would using a Fibre Link make any sense, both technically and cost?

--------------------------

At the outbuilding end, use a spare Router as the WAP, whether Fibre+Converters or Ethernet for the long haul.

In reply to a post by camieabz:

I've tried using my 230v kit on an industrial system, but it refuses to co-operate.

I'm sure it's just a phase though.

/gets coat

The lad has Potential!

One option:

http://www.veracityglobal.com/products/ethernet-and-...

Edited by camieabz (Tue 16-Jul-13 16:44:35)

I would probably just buy a drum of better cable (CAT6) and give it a go. The cost of the fiber converters make trying the Ethernet cable the simpler thing.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

I would probably just buy a drum of better cable (CAT6) and give it a go. The cost of the fiber converters make trying the Ethernet cable the simpler thing.

Have you seen the cost of External Cat6e? 80metres will be enough rather than have 200+m being wasted.

CAT6 yeah around £60 for 100m

Still cheaper than 2 media converters and fibre with ends already on it

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

CAT6 yeah around £60 for 100m

Still cheaper than 2 media converters and fibre with ends already on it

Exactly, so getting a drum would leave about 220m unused - around £140.

The £60 was for a 100m drum, not all drums are 300m long

...but eckiedoo's analogy is for 'substantially greater than the 90 metres', which I take to mean also greater than 100 metres.

/pedant

So buy the bigger drum.

100m of fibre seems to be around the £100 mark, plus converters at £40 each. Blown fibre would be cheaper, but needs a lot more tools

Hi again

I didn't mean to start an argument when I mentioned electrics - all I meant was that the office is on a different meter to the house, other sites I read mentioned there was a way of doing what I need if the house & office were on the same system. My ignorance meant I used the wrong terminology, and I probably got the wrong end of the stick anyway. Be gentle with me - I can turn the computer on but that is about as far as I get normally!

Anyway, am still thinking/digesting what has been said above and I appreciate the input from everyone. The pipe work is already in place (was put in place a few years ago when the original conversion was done) but having chatted to my boss this morning (it is actually his property we are talking about) he now thinks that it might not be best to use that pipe (it was his suggestion in the first place). So...

As the house and office are not too far apart as the crow flies (30metres off the top of my head) with a clear line of site (it was just the route of the trench that added to the distance) is there anything else we can do? Anything without wires or is that too complicated?

Or would it be better to give up the diy route and get someone in to sort it - network installation type person? There seem to be a few locally who do home networks.

Thanks again

rook

You might try Homeplugs, they may just work - http://www.amazon.co.uk/TP-Link-PA411KIT-AV500-Power...

If you are going down that route (plus the fact that the OP mentioned wireless connection), I would suggest something like this:- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Devolo-dLAN-500-Wireless-Sta...

But for that to cause a problem you would need an isolation failure at two locations

indeed, I was merely explaining the reasoning behind the concern. If you have an electrical isolation policy there's no issue ever.

OP mentioned two different metered power supplies

In reply to a post by yarwell:

OP mentioned two different metered power supplies

Not totally impractical, but I accept that there is a requirement to "suck-it-&-see"!

I would still suggest a wired connection. Is there a fence line that is close? Use fully armoured SWA Cat5e or Cat6 and run it along there or just below the surface.

You could go for a point to point wireless solution but total data rates will be well down on a wired Ethernet connection.


If you go for a local installer they will only be doing what you would - and you sound competent, so why pay someone else when you could the credit? There would still be the cost of running cable or installing a link.