Do NOW still provide phone line over copper?

I was just chatting to Plusnet about my renewal, and to upgrade to faster fibre (I already have 30Mbps) they want me to ditch the landline.

NOW have a faster, cheaper and shorter contract, apparently without this stipulation, but I hesitated to order, as it's not absolutely clear it will be over the existing copper.

Will it be?

I do know copper is being retired anyway, although I'm sceptical whether it will be by end 2025 as announced, as I think too many elderly and disabled (I count myself in that) still depend on it.

So, if I hit "order" on the NOW offering, do I have anything to worry about?

Ditching the landline (as in telephone service) and moving away from copper are two totally different things.

The 2025 date you quote is the date when phone connection through the PSTN system will cease. From that date your existing phone service sending an analogue voice signal to the switching apparatus in the local exchange and on to the wider world will no longer work. Instead your ISP will have to provide you with compatible equipment so that your existing phone will connect via your router and your phone will converse with the rest of the world by having the analogue voice signal converted to a digital signal and then being processed through your router and the internet. However, that will still happen through your existing landline until FTTP is available.

When your location has fibre installed so that you can order FTTP then your phone and internet connection will come off the copper and onto the fibre and the copper connection to the existing street cabinet or exchange will cease to work but that may well be many years after 2025.

Unless you already have the capability to create an FTTP connection Plusnet cannot ditch your landline connection as that would cease any internet that you have but they can move you over to the digital VoIP phone system.

Edited by GonePostal (Tue 29-Aug-23 13:23:59)

OK, so I didn't phrase it quite right. Plusnet were pushing me to "upgrade" to faster broadband, but it didn't come with any associated telephone service, which for me was a "downgrade", as I still want and need my landline service. NOW don't seem to have this limitation, but it isn't absolutely crystal clear, so I didn't want to sign-up but then find my phone doesn't work because I don't have a VOIP handset (or an adaptor).

Edit: Whilst it is nowhere named in so many words, I believe the package they were pushing me to upgrade to must have been FTTP. This was a complete no-go for me, because of the phone.

NOW are offering comparable speeds (and cheaper), but seemingly still by FTTC, which would mean I wouldn't lose the landline. But I was looking for some reassurance before I sign-up and find I got that bit wrong!

Edited by TLM (Tue 29-Aug-23 13:35:30)

Unless your property has FTTP available, then the service will be delivered over copper. There is no timeline for removal of all copper, although Openreach are targeting 85% UK coverage by December 2026.

Voice services are a different matter.

From next week (5th Sep 2023), you will be unable to order an analogue voice service - i.e. dialtone originating from equipment in the exchange. The analogue phone network will be completely switched off in December 2025.

Plusnet don't offer any digital voice. But as far as I know, they're also not using SOGEA (that is, broadband without a linked analogue phone service). So if you renew today, you should be able to keep your phone number and analogue phone service, but only for the next 2 years.

As I understand it, NOW is a sub-brand of Sky. Sky have been doing digital voice for years. Therefore, if you switch to NOW, I would expect that they would supply your phone service as digital voice. That means you'd plug your phone handset into a port on the router they supply, instead of into the BT socket in the wall.

This does mean that there would be no phone service to your house in the event of a power cut (unless you have battery backup for your router). But this is a bullet you're going to have to bite in 2 years time anyway. If you don't use the landline for voice calls, then this won't be a concern.

It's the powercut scenario I'm a bit worried about, as I'm disabled (invisibly so, but still disabled).

Reading between the lines, I've come to the conclusion FTTP must be available, and it was this PN were trying to push on me.

But yes, I could still renew my current package (inclusive of phone) as of today. They didn't really want me to, though.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

Unless you already have the capability to create an FTTP connection Plusnet cannot ditch your landline connection as that would cease any internet that you have but they can move you over to the digital VoIP phone system.

Plusnet recently launched an SOGEA-based product (which they call 'Fibre', as opposed to their FTTP-based 'Full Fibre') which has no option for Digital Voice / VoIP.

AFAIK if you recontract to get a discount you have to move to one of these two products and loose your existing PSTN service, or you can stay with them on the out-of-contract pricing. To retain broadband with DV / VoIP others have suggested that they will offer migration to BT (and likely EE since they have recently announced a DV option), even in-contract.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Plusnet don't offer any digital voice. But as far as I know, they're also not using SOGEA (that is, broadband without a linked analogue phone service). So if you renew today, you should be able to keep your phone number and analogue phone service, but only for the next 2 years.

They launched SOGEA and removed FTTC+WLR a couple of weeks ago https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/08/uk-isp...

Thank you, this! The product is just called "Fibre". It's faster than I have at the moment, but includes no phone service, so was an instant no-no.

I don't really need the additional speed anyway. Not that it wouldn't be quite nice, but if it's only at the cost of losing the landline, the latter is more important by far.

In reply to a post by TLM:

OK, so I didn't phrase it quite right. Plusnet were pushing me to "upgrade" to faster broadband, but it didn't come with any associated telephone service, which for me was a "downgrade", as I still want and need my landline service. NOW don't seem to have this limitation, but it isn't absolutely crystal clear, so I didn't want to sign-up but then find my phone doesn't work because I don't have a VOIP handset (or an adaptor).

Edit: Whilst it is nowhere named in so many words, I believe the package they were pushing me to upgrade to must have been FTTP. This was a complete no-go for me, because of the phone.

NOW are offering comparable speeds (and cheaper), but seemingly still by FTTC, which would mean I wouldn't lose the landline. But I was looking for some reassurance before I sign-up and find I got that bit wrong!

If it's only 30M, it won't be FTTP, it will be FTTC.

I've just checked on the availability checker, and new Plusnet FTTC services are being supplied without phone service. This means they are using SOGEA after all.

Plusnet is part of the BT group, so if you say you need a phone service, they'll push you toward BT or EE instead.

You should be able to stick with your analogue line for now if you remain with Plusnet and just let the service roll on, but you'll be paying extortionate out-of-contract rates, and you'll lose service come December 2025.

For *any* new service you migrate to now, it will either come with digital voice or no voice.

There is an opportunity here for you to migrate your phone number to a standalone VoIP provider (which is what I've done - and I haven't bought any VoIP equipment, I just use a mobile phone app as a softphone). This completely decouples the phone service from the broadband service.

If you don't want to get involved with this, then you'll need to find a provider which supplies digital voice on their router. The downsides of this are:
- you are tied to using the ISP-supplied router
- every time you change broadband provider, you will be limited to only those who provide digital voice services - which is a small and diminishing set, so you won't get the best deals
- every time you change broadband provider, there's a (small) risk that they'll make a mistake with the migration of your voice service and your phone number will get lost

To answer your original question, yes, they will provide your phone service over copper. I've just signed up to a Now contract and it's actually GEA FTTC as usual, but the PSTN is still LLU/MPF, i.e. goes back to Sky's equipment in the child exchange that my phone line connects to. I still have an E-side (so not SoGEA) and the phone works in the NTE5 socket like it has done for decades.

For clarity, I have relatives who live in an area where copper services are no longer available. The Now availability checker does not let you order there, with a message of:

"We are sorry, NOW Broadband is unavailable at your address.

While we can’t supply you with a service, Sky, our sibling company, may have some options available in your area."

When I dial 17070 I get a "welcome to Sky" message which shows it's going back to their exchange kit.

Great prices, and 1 month in, great service so far.

Hope this helps.

The NOW offering is 50M (not my current 30), but still with phone.

Plusnet were still offering renewal of my existing package, inclusive of phone, but the salesperson was obviously keener on getting me to switch, and only offered a straight renewal when I insisted (several times) I can't lose the landline.

I switched to it as it was much cheaper and didn't use the landline, they even let me switch mid contract at no cost.
I only noticed it was available as an upgrade as I went on my account to reset my password for a new router.

Thanks
Dan

Thank you, it's reassuring. I haven't switched for years, and am a bit nervous - especially about discovering I've got the wrong end of the stick and inadvertently relinquished my needed landline!

You haven't misunderstood tbh, Plusnet would indeed remove your landline if you recontracted with them. The only way to keep your landline and stay with PN is to stay rolling contract, but of course their out of contract pricing is far from competitive. My Mum is in the same situation and will be migrating, probably to Now, when her contract is up.

I'm only with Now for the short-term, as I wait for Openreach FTTP or a local alt-net to finish their build. Virgin contract recently ended and I didn't want to commit to another 18 months with them.

They are pushing it really hard, so I'm not surprised they didn't put barriers in the way of you switching.

If you don't use your landline anyway, I can see the attraction, but it wasn't any good for me. The guy even tried to persuade me it's better to bite the bullet now, so I will be "ready" for 2025, but terminating my current landline service when I don't already have an adequate replacement (and they weren't offering one!) is clearly madness.

In reply to a post by hardlyvibrant:

You haven't misunderstood tbh, Plusnet would indeed remove your landline if you recontracted with them. The only way to keep your landline and stay with PN is to stay rolling contract, but of course their out of contract pricing is far from competitive. My Mum is in the same situation and will be migrating, probably to Now, when her contract is up.

I'm only with Now for the short-term, as I wait for Openreach FTTP or a local alt-net to finish their build. Virgin contract recently ended and I didn't want to commit to another 18 months with them.

No, sorry for the confusion, it's not actually the case that you can no longer re-contract with Plusnet and keep the phone line, but you could be forgiven for thinking so, as they only begrudgingly offer it AFTER you've resisted all attempts to get you on the new, phoneless product.

It's NOW I was worried about, as I know where one provider goes, the rest are not far behind, so I didn't want to order it and then find theirs is exactly the same - no phone, or VOIP only.

In reply to a post by hardlyvibrant:

No, sorry for the confusion, it's not actually the case that you can no longer re-contract with Plusnet and keep the phone line, but you could be forgiven for thinking so, as they only begrudgingly offer it AFTER you've resisted all attempts to get you on the new, phoneless product.

It's NOW I was worried about, as I know where one provider goes, the rest are not far behind, so I didn't want to order it and then find theirs is exactly the same - no phone, or VOIP only.

Ah OK. I admit to skim-reading the thread so probably a misunderstanding on my part. That's good to know, as it's an option when she recontracts. The CPI increases are a good reason for her to move from Plusnet though.

Unless things have changed in the past month, Now should give you a non-VOIP service, just as I have.

In reply to a post by TLM:

It's the powercut scenario I'm a bit worried about, as I'm disabled (invisibly so, but still disabled).

Reading between the lines, I've come to the conclusion FTTP must be available, and it was this PN were trying to push on me.

But yes, I could still renew my current package (inclusive of phone) as of today. They didn't really want me to, though.

I'm sure you can get a portable power station for home https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=portable+power+station+...
With this you can connect your router and electricity will be maintained. I know friends from India and Bangladesh who have regular power failures and they use a power station that immediately feeds in electricity to prevent power cuts.

I've got BT Digital Voice service. When I migrated from TalkTalk FTTC to BT FTTC the phone number was retained. You won't lose your phone number when migrating to Digital Voice. The difference is that your phone number and calling will be through digital voice rather than analogue.

I think, since you have a disability, you may qualify for BT Home Essentials 1/2 which is contract free and costs £15-£20 a month. You can leave at any time. You'll also receive a BT Advanced Digital Home Phone with Alexa Built-In that's wireless and is rechargeable so you aren't dependent on plugging in the traditional phone into your router.

If power failure is a concern and you don't like the idea of connecting a power bank to your router. There's another suggestion. I use rental mobile phone service from RWG sim card for only £2 a month it comes with 750MB data and 100 minutes and 100 texts + free voice mails. Have had this service for 11 months now.

This is way more reliable, in case you need emergency, no more worries about electricity going down or internet connection drop causing phone loss.

If you renew your current contract, it's unlikely that it will be specially cheaper deal compared to a new contract with a different ISP.

The analogue line will ultimately be turned off and even if you don't get FTTP by December 2025 you'll still be forced to migrate to Digital Voice for FTTC. You have no choice.

TLM, if you want fttp but want to keep PN, do a new install fttp install and port out the number so it will kill the vdsl connection and you have a shiny voip [same] number and fttp .. Or you can go with Now.

I'm sure you can get a portable power station for home ...
With this you can connect your router and electricity will be maintained.

Be careful - these type of portable power stations are not intended for use as a UPS where you keep them charging continuously waiting for a power cut. Continuous charging can shorten he battery life significantly - and they aren't cheap.
However, there are cheaper UPS that are designed for use with routers to keep VoIP connections live in a power cut - e.g. https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/products/44819-eaton-...

Just one thing to keep in mind. Don't get fixated on the word "landline" if your main aim is to keep your existing number. You can either migrate to an ISP that supplies a VoIP connection which will keep your existing number (providing there are no cock-ups) while routing your call through the internet or your internet service can go to an ISP which does not provide a voice service and you migrate your number to an independent VoIP provider. Either way your number is retained but your "landline" is gone.

I do want to keep the number, yes, but that is not the greatest concern.

I don't want to lose the phone if the internet is out, as that is exactly the time I'm most likely to need it.

In reply to a post by TLM:

I do want to keep the number, yes, but that is not the greatest concern.

I don't want to lose the phone if the internet is out, as that is exactly the time I'm most likely to need it.

Welcome to the great debate which has being going on here and elsewhere for many moons now. The first OfCOM response was that ISPs should ensure that their vulnerable customers could maintain communication for at least 45 minutes in the event of a power cut; this could be by supplying the customer with a mobile phone if they did not already have one or in mobile-free zones by supplying a battery back up to maintain the router for 45 minutes. The justification was that the average power cut lasted about 30 minutes. As the implications of this policy moved out from the metropolitan apparatchiks in OfCOM there was immediate uproar in the rural areas where the average power cut would be measured in hours rather than minutes. As I understand it, OfCOM are still carrying out consultation in order to establish a resilient policy.

Depending on where you live, there is a very real possibility that you will be without any communication after three or four hours of a power cut even if you have your own back-up arrangements to maintain power to your own systems as there are so many mission-critical nodes in the communications system. If you have a mobile signal you should remember that the average mast will die after three or four hours due to the limited battery back-up usually supplied. Similarly the cabinet through which your landline is routed will also die after just a few hours taking out all internet and "landline" phone services.

This should be alleviated when FTTP is available as the head-end exchange controlling your fibre connection should have power generation facilities but until that time you and thousands of others in rural locations are at very real risk of losing any way to communicate with the rest of the world except for semaphore or carrier pigeon in the event of a power cut lasting more than three or four hours.

In reply to a post by TLM:

They are pushing it really hard, so I'm not surprised they didn't put barriers in the way of you switching.

If you don't use your landline anyway, I can see the attraction, but it wasn't any good for me. The guy even tried to persuade me it's better to bite the bullet now, so I will be "ready" for 2025, but terminating my current landline service when I don't already have an adequate replacement (and they weren't offering one!) is clearly madness.

they were pushing FTTP when I was coming to the end of my contract and they did that cheaper than FTTC, that was before the thing about not giving a phone line with FTTC. Now broadband only does FTTC, i presume the phone will be digital voice as that is what Sky is doing and since Now belongs to Sky. so the phone will plug directly into the router, I could be wrong, maybe email them.
At some point everyone will be using digital voice if they want to keep their home phone, I do have a problem with forcing people onto digital voice, certainly for people who rely on their phone if there is a power cut. But a lot of people use Dect cordless phones that don't work in a power cut anyway, and the majority of people have mobile these days. I still don't like this idea of forcing people.

i jumped from Plusnet because they could not give me a decent deal on FTTC, so i thought if i had to got FTTP i may as well go with a better network

Thing is, they weren't even forcing me onto digital voice - the upgrade they were plugging would have left me with NO voice, and the hassle of having to arrange it as a standalone package with somebody else!

I really hate their pushy sales tactics. He didn't even start by checking: "Do you really need your landline?"

Just: "We can do you faster speeds!" So then when I looked at it, I could see at once there's no phone, told him that's unacceptable, but he still tried to blag it that it's actually an advantage, because I'd be ready for the switch-off. Turning off a service you still use, with no replacement being offered, is a pretty wacky form of preparedness, in my view.

Maybe they were advising NATS this week? "Just turn it off with no replacement, because you know it will eventually have to be retired anyway!"

In reply to a post by TLM:

Thing is, they weren't even forcing me onto digital voice - the upgrade they were plugging would have left me with NO voice, and the hassle of having to arrange it as a standalone package with somebody else!

I really hate their pushy sales tactics. He didn't even start by checking: "Do you really need your landline?"

Just: "We can do you faster speeds!" So then when I looked at it, I could see at once there's no phone, told him that's unacceptable, but he still tried to blag it that it's actually an advantage, because I'd be ready for the switch-off. Turning off a service you still use, with no replacement being offered, is a pretty wacky form of preparedness, in my view.

Maybe they were advising NATS this week? "Just turn it off with no replacement, because you know it will eventually have to be retired anyway!"

Plusnet seems to have got rid of voice, I know on their FTTP they did not have it, now their FTTC don't. If plusnet was cheaper than others I would say ok, fair enough, but they are not that much cheaper than other providers these days, if at all. Now broadband is cheaper than Pusnet, which is why I was looking at going there, until Zzoomm sent me a good offer.

When I phoned them, they were pushing me onto FTTP and they did not ask about my phone at all, I never used it, I wonder if he knew that by looking at my records, but I doubt it.

Sadly, this is the way it is going to go and Openreach don't care who it affects.

Looking at Now siteand their packages, they have Pay As You Use Calls. Both FTTC packages is the same price, so may as well go with the higher speed one, even if you can;t get the highest speed.

My VOIP is playing up at the moment, so some reason it is not connecting, I don't know if it is due to the problems Zzoomm is having, or the adaptor have gone belly up, it is getting on and was cheap when i got it.
That is the problem with relying on Voip.
I use my mobile more these days, IU would get rid of the Voip, but i still have £8 on it

In reply to a post by TLM:

Thing is, they weren't even forcing me onto digital voice - the upgrade they were plugging would have left me with NO voice

BT group are relegating Plusnet to the bargain end of the market. Many people don't need a voice landline these days, but for those that do, it's a way to force them to pay more for BT/EE service.

Your salesperson at Plusnet, having learned that you need a home phone service, should have offered you a migration to BT or EE. But you'd still end up with digital voice.

There was a comment above along the lines of "welcome to the great debate", but in reality there's no debate: Openreach's analogue PSTN equipment *is* being switched off in December 2025, end of story.

If you want to continue with analogue telephony past Dec 2025, there's only one possible route, and that's to go with a provider who has their own voice-capable equipment in the exchange - Talktalk is the prime example. Like Plusnet, they don't have any digital voice offering, but unlike Plusnet, their exchange equipment (called MSANs) can provide voice service directly onto the copper. So if they do offer you voice+broadband, it will be analogue voice. Since they connect directly to the copper, it's not affected by the switchoff of Openreach PSTN equipment.

However, it won't last forever. Sooner or later, Talktalk is going to become fed up with the cost of running this equipment for the reducing number of voice subscribers, and/or Openreach is going to want to remove the E-side copper lines or shut down the exchange building completely and terminate their lease.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

There was a comment above along the lines of "welcome to the great debate", but in reality there's no debate: Openreach's analogue PSTN equipment *is* being switched off in December 2025, end of story.

The debate is not about the ending of the PSTN service, it is the more fundamental point of providing a resilient service to vulnerable customers (usually in the rural areas) who would be left without any means of communication in the event of a typical power cut. However, as usual this point goes straight over the head of those in the metropolitan elites who have no concept that there is a world beyond their cushioned environment.

I'm not sure why he should have offered migration to another brand under the same umbrella, as he didn't refuse continuation of the landline I've already got.

He just gave me a hard sell of an "upgrade" that wouldn't have had any landline AND omitted to draw my attention to that.

If I'd been frail and a bit confused (I'm not in the best of health, but still compos mentis, touch wood), I might have said: "OK, thanks, that sounds great!" and not have realised I was consenting to give up the landline until it stopped working!

If I imagine my mum, in her 80s, as a party to a similar conversation, for example, she might very well have said: "Thank you for the lovely deal!" and it doesn't appear he would have checked at any point that she was OK about losing the landline, and had an effective alternative.