***New*** LLU and your rights

I provide you this information on an informal basis and it should not be taken as legal advice. Should you need legal help I have provided you with links to organisations that can help you.

Plustnet LLU Problems. What can be done?

Due to the fact that the other thread has become bogged down and also out of date I have chosen to publish this new one.

If you are with PN, have been transferred to Tiscali LLU and have either suffered extended downtime (more than 7 days), intermittent but long term disconnections or never wanted to be migrated across then you can follow the steps below. This also applies to you if you opted out and were transferred across irrespective.

If you have not yet been migrated across and would rather wait until a proper migration path is available between LLU and BT then I suggest you use the link below to opt-out but make sure that you are signed into the portal before you do else you won't see the option:

Plusnet LLU Opt-out

In reply to:

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13. Is it possible to opt-out of receiving the service?
Yes. Visit http://trials.plus.net and raise a Question asking to opt-out of being transferred to an LLU service.

Please note, your request must be made before we have placed an order to transfer your service. If we have already placed the order, we won't be able to cancel it.

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PN are putting people into a difficult position and due to the long customer wait times on the phone, inconsistent replies from CS and ticket responses times I have complied the information to help you. It might be long but it will include all relevant data so please bear with me or print it off.

Short history

PN migrated people across to Tiscali after making assurance that people would not be out of pocket or disadvantaged when moved. Since then a number of promises have been retracted, clarified or changed and we will now stick to the rules to resolve the problems.

You should have received an email telling you that your exchange might be "upgraded" to LLU and a link to the FAQ. Before June there was no opt-out mentioned in the FAQ. PN also promised to send a second email prior to actual migration with a chance for people to opt-out but many people were never sent these and hence missed the opportunity. Also from the end of June to end of July the opt-out was removed from the FAQ and if you received notice during those weeks then you would not have been aware of this facility.

I am hopeful that the information below will resolve the problems as PN have made reassurance that they will honour this commitment. I highly recommend that you deal politely yet firmly with PN. If you do not get a resolution then I recommend you report the problem to ISPA. They will step in and make PN do the right thing. Also register your problems with OFCOM as it only takes 5 mins.

If you now want to migrate to another ISP or want to move back to a BT product while staying with Plusnet then you have to follow one of two options as detailed below. The move back to BT is on the next post.

Edited by rsharma (Tue 05-Sep-06 22:57:25)

1a. For those wishing to migrate away to a new ISP

Plusnet's Ts&Cs Please printout a copy or save it to disk for future reference should the need arise.

In reply to:

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"Agreement" means these Conditions and Annexes hereto, the Customer Order, and any other document that the parties agree in writing will form part of the Agreement.

23. Ending this Agreement

23.1.3 you giving us immediate notice within the 14 day notice period if, under clause 24, we inform you that we are increasing our charges or changing the conditions of this Agreement to your detriment.

24. How this Agreement can be changed

We may change this Agreement, including our Charges, at any time. We will give you at least 14 days notice of any changes before they take effect. You may not change any term of this Agreement. As explained in clause 23, you can end this Agreement by giving us immediate notice in this 14 day period if we increase our Charges or change the Conditions of this Agreement to your detriment.

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PN are in breach of the Ts&Cs by not giving you notice that the changes being made are to your detriment. Since PN have not given you notice you can initiate a notice to them instead. The notice period will apply regardless of time due to the fact that PN had to give you noticed and failed. The notice that you might be migrated to LLU is not the same as a notice required under this clause. You can ask for immediate termination of the connection and a release from the contract and any contractual months remaining. The detriment, if it applies to you, lies in the fact that you will have to pay

Edited by rsharma (Tue 05-Sep-06 17:53:23)

Staying with Plusnet but moved to a BT connection

You can instead choose to remain with PN and ask that you be put back on the BT network but subject to the LLU FAQ below. You could utilise the above legal position instead to argue that you should not have been moved across without notice but I suspect their LLU commits them in any case so might be overkill.

Whether you choose to cease the PN LLU line and they then order a new activation or you request a migration back to BT with them is up to you but I would recommend the former method as it is more certain and less complicated. The disadvantage with the former method however is that you will have downtime of around 7 days whereas almost negligible with the latter. You must decide what suits your needs best.

See their *new* LLU FAQ that states:

In reply to:

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11. Will I be able to move away from the service?
BT are currently running a trial that allows us to transfer customers from LLU to IPStream.

As this is a trial service we can only submit about 6-10 orders a week. That means you will need to meet one of these criteria before we will move you:

If you were migrated before 1st June, prior to the introduction of the LLU opt-out and are experiencing issues with the service.

If you were migrated despite opting out.

If you have an ongoing fault that has been raised to Tiscali but is at risk of not being resolved (this is at the discretion of the Support Team).

You did not receive email notifications before and at the point of migration to LLU.

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Edited by rsharma (Tue 05-Sep-06 17:53:57)

Steps for resolution:

I would start by raising a ticket on the portal to support requesting either a migration back or a cease on the line (depending on whichever option you choose)

I would allow them a total of 8 days to resolve it but send a reminder after 4 days if you do not hear back.

If that fails I would ask them to escalate the issue to the manager and allow them one more day for a response (in addition to eight for the previous step)

If you still don't hear back or the response is now what you should expect then it is time to start the formal complaints procedure.

In reply to:

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Our Obligations
PlusNet has a number of obligations that are required by UK legislation. These obligations ensure our customers are provided with choice and consumer protection. PlusNet takes these obligations very seriously as they ensure that the needs and demands of our customers are met and that we deliver a service which is second to none.

When we provide service to you, we promise to use all the reasonable skill and care of a competent Internet and Telecommunications Service Provider. The formal details of the general terms and conditions of our contractual relationship with you, our customer, can be found here.

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Note - if you are terminating (ceasing) the line and migrating away to another ISP you do not have to give one months notice since you are doing so due to a breach of contract by PN.

PN's site states the following:

In reply to:

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Complaint Resolution
Whilst we aim to deliver a high level of customer satisfaction, we acknowledge that from time to time problems do occur. We are committed to ensuring that every effort is made to resolve any difficulties quickly and to your satisfaction. However, in the unlikely event that you feel your issue needs to be escalated, we ask you to provide our Customer Service Director with details of your issue in writing. This allows the opportunity to fully investigate your case, ensuring that an appropriate, informed decision is taken.

Our Head Office address is as follows:

Customer Services Director
PlusNet
PO Box 3704
Terry Street
Sheffield
S9 2WL

If after utilising the support methods detailed above you remain dissatisfied, then you have the option of independent adjudication via referral to our Dispute Resolution Scheme.

As a member of the Internet Service Provider Association (ISPA), PlusNet utilises the Communications and Internet Services Adjudication Scheme (CISAS) provided by the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators for ISPA members, which is supported by Ofcom.

Should you wish to refer your issue for the independent consideration of CISAS, then the agency contact details are as follows:

Via their website:
http://www.arbitrators.org/cisas

By Post:
CISAS
C/o The Chartered Institute of Arbitrators
12 Bloomsbury Square
London
WC1A 2LP

By Telephone:
020 7421 7444

Please refer to us as PlusNet plc in any correspondence with CISAS.

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Although they suggest that you can go to CISAS my advice would be to contact ISPA first. ISPA have a Code of Practice that applies to its members. Since the ISPA route can be much more speedy I would contact them citing some or all as the breach of the Code (below) and should that fail you would still have the option of going to CISAS:

In reply to:

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2.3 Honesty

2.3.1 Members shall use their reasonable endeavours to ensure Services (excluding Third Party Content) and Promotional Material are not of a kind that are likely to mislead by inaccuracy, ambiguity, exaggeration, omission or otherwise.

2.4 Fair Trading

2.4.1 In its dealings with consumers, other businesses and each other, Members must act fairly and reasonably at all times.

2.4.2 Members must, upon request, use reasonable means to bring to the attention of their Customers the existence of the Code and must notify any Customer of the Complaints Procedure, where that procedure is available to the Customer.

2.5 Customer Contracts

2.5.1 Members shall ensure that they bring their Terms and Conditions to the attention of all new Customers before such Customers register with a Member for Services.

2.5.2 Members must include in their contracts with Customers a provision requiring Customers to comply with the UK law in using any of the relevant Member's Services.

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If you do decide to use CISAS then be aware that it will cost you nothing and if you are unhappy with the decision then you can still go to court for a resolution.

My personal opinion is that PN are also in breach of this Code:

In reply to:

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3.2 Pricing Information

3.2.1 Members must ensure that charges for Services are clearly stated in relevant Promotional Material. Members must make clear whether any such charges quoted are inclusive or exclusive of VAT. Where additional charges, for example on-line charges, are payable this should be stated.

3.2.2 Members must use reasonable endeavours to ensure that textual pricing information relating to charges for Services is accurate, up to date, legible, prominent and presented in such a way that does not require close examination.

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Legal Help and Advice

You can claim through the small claims track through the County Court Online to recover the money from PN.

Consumer Direct

Trading Standards

Citizens Advice

Consumer Direct

Consumer Line

Direct Debit Guarantee

ISPA

OFCOM

Which? members have a legal helpline for free. Most people have legal cover built into their building or contents insurance policy that not only provide free help but can also take action with no costs to pay on your part. Check through your union or work to see if you have free access to legal help.

If you are paying with your credit card then I suggest you raise a dispute with them under Consumer Credit Act s.75 because you can claim the money from PN, the credit card company or both. The credit card company is not there to act as an intermediary between you and PN, you can treat them as being PN as far as a refund is concerned and seek the full refund from them.

I hope this help, remember only start with the polite method and extinguish it first before you start making legal threats. Seek professional assistance if you need to or if things are out of your depth. This is informal advice and hence you should seek professional advice or contact one of the above organisations for further help.

Edited by rsharma (Tue 05-Sep-06 19:38:37)

If PN deny that they are in breach of contract and you don't have the knowledge/ability/time to argue this with them then I recommend you use the second method i.e. i) get PN to migrate you back from Tiscali LLU to BT IPStream OR ii) PN ceasing the LLU connection & new activation back with BT as per their LLU FAQ. If your circumstance match the criteria as laid out in the FAQ then PN will be obliged to move you back for FREE. Once they honour the commitments of the FAQ and you are back on a BT network you can request a new BT MAC code which can in turn be used to move to any other ISP of your choice.
http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=plusnet&Number=2649561

I forgot to add something yesterday and that is in relation to MAC codes. A BT MAC code allows you to seamlessly migrate between ISPs and usually takes between 3-7 days with little to no downtime. The process is to request from PN your MAC code, register with a new ISP and hand them the MAC code and they will then imitate a transfer to them. It really is as simple as that. PN will refuse to issue you a MAC code until all outstanding fees are paid.

Do I have outstanding fees?

PN charge

Edited by rsharma (Wed 06-Sep-06 14:45:29)

In reply to:

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The only ISPs that I know that accept LLU MAC codes are:
Zen
IDNET

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And any Enta reseller (Xifos say) and Newnet and I am sure there are others.

and, of course, so do PlusNet

http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=plusnet&Number=2082232

This should be made a sticky. I've been requesting to be moved back onto IPStream for 8 weeks to no avail. Filled in the form to ISPA as per rsharma's post at about 15:45, got the auto-respond message from them at 16:03. Got a call for Matthew at +net at 16:38.

They've now arranged for a transfer back to IPStream as well as 3 months of credit. Thankyou rsharma and hopefully +net if my connection remains stable on IPStream (It was before)!

Excellent news. But PlusNet will need your MAC from Tiscali to move you back - and we heard yesterday that technical problems were preventing Tiscali from issuing any MACs. You might want to check this... Perhaps the problem is fixed now.

Simon

Excellent news and I am glad that I was able to help in my small way. If PN fail to get a LLU MAC then insist they cease the line and reconnect to BT for free instead as it might be quicker and can't be worse than not having any connection or even a reliable one.

I have today also sent a further email to OFCOM to review the situation in relation to PN and they are still hesitant. I recommend that anyone that has been having problems to report it to OFCOM (link in the first post of this thread) so that they can monitor the number of complaints as they only seem to act when there are a number of these. I have however reminded OFCOM of their obligation and if I don't get some action on their part I will be taking it further next week.

I also hope that PN can get their house in order without being forced to do so by OFCOM or ISPA but I have been listening to promises from them for months and nothing has changed, if anything things have got much worse.