From today you cannot order Broadband without line rental

I literally got my MAC code two days ago, checked the Sky website and it was possible to order SKy Broadband on its own, £12.50 per month and gets me Anytime Plus on my HD box.

From today the website has been changed and I could not order Broadband without taking their line rental. I phoned up their sales line and was told that from 1st September it is no longer possible to order Broadband without taking Sky Talk line rental.

I don't recall having seen this anywhere, so I guess it was not an announced change. Pretty annoyed to be honest, I don't think this is a clever move at all.

In reply to a post by Millsey:

I literally got my MAC code two days ago, checked the Sky website and it was possible to order SKy Broadband on its own, £12.50 per month and gets me Anytime Plus on my HD box.

From today the website has been changed and I could not order Broadband without taking their line rental. I phoned up their sales line and was told that from 1st September it is no longer possible to order Broadband without taking Sky Talk line rental.

I don't recall having seen this anywhere, so I guess it was not an announced change. Pretty annoyed to be honest, I don't think this is a clever move at all.

well they do have some form for not being forth coming with mac codes , so i suppose this move (FULL LLU ) only gets them out of providing mac's altogether, couple that with their support staff who are either clueless or are unable to help customers due to the restrictions placed on them by their company

I think I saw a SKY advert in last weekend's papers, packaging a Broadband price with their line rental - probably the mandatory line rental bit was in the infinitely microscopic small print immediately below the advert

i noticed.
A friend of mine was going to go to Sky broadband, we went into the process and then it put line rental in the basket. When we took the line rental out, she was told she could not have broadband.


for s atrt she is in a contract with a phone company and she is happy with the service and second she don't like the idea of being fully unbundled.

so what Sky have done is lost a customer, i would have thought that the way things are Sky would be happy to have someone just on broadband than not at all, but they must have enough customer after all they seem to be giving people less choice.

the other thing is now my friend is considering whether to bother with the internet at all now as she thinks it is all to much hassle and not worth the bother.


Also, if I have to move suppliers for any reason, sky would have been my first choice, but now they are not a choice at all, I will not go fully unbundled,


So well done Sky.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Also, if I have to move suppliers for any reason, sky would have been my first choice, but now they are not a choice at all, I will not go fully unbundled,

I tend to think like that myself. However it is widely accepted that LLU broadband is better than BT Wholesale broadband in many cases, and Sky's move means that two of the three major LLU providers will only take on customers who are prepared to go fully unbundled.

The question is, if the exchange only has Sky and TalkTalk LLU, is it worth keeping the broadband on BT Wholesale just for the sake of keeping the phone on BT Wholesale too?

It could be used as a way of keeping customers, the migration process for full llu'd customers needs to be simplified and quicker, up to 2 weeks without a working land line is just not acceptable, changes need to be made if they want to only offer full llu

My phone has never left BT Wholesale. However a friend of mine moved from Sky LLU phone to TalkTalk LLU phone with just a few minutes of downtime. The only problem he had was that TalkTalk hadn't set up caller display properly but it was fixed in a few days.

But when the process goes wrong, it goes badly wrong, and I've previously said a PAC/MAC style migration system for landlines should exist.

I fail to see how this is any worse than BT Retail insisting on you having line rental with them, in order to take BT Broadband.

Why do people have a problem with going fully unbundled, i've got my internet from sky and my telephone from them and cant really complain, so what is the big issue with doing this, or am i missing something?.

I think the bigger problem is going from full LLU to partial LLU. If you try and go from full LLU to BT line rental and a separate ISP (whether LLU or BT Wholesale based) then you generally have to get the phone line back to BT before you can place any order on it. And then if something goes wrong you may lose your phone number in the process.

And that is why I don't have full LLU with Sky. But, this move may mean that once my 12 months is up I will move back away from Sky - only went to them for Anytime + as a punt and now know that Anytime + gives very little that I actually want. Sky will likely lose a customer they already have through this as I don't want to run this risk.

Surely it is easy enough to get your line back to BT, providing nothing goes wrong, and in my opinion why would you want to go back to BT, the phone line rental is cheaper with sky and if you are on sky broadband LLU then you cant complain as it just works, well it does for me.

In reply to a post by tommy_boi:

Why do people have a problem with going fully unbundled, i've got my internet from sky and my telephone from them and cant really complain, so what is the big issue with doing this, or am i missing something?.

My other post I believe partly explains this. Going full LLU is great. Leaving full LLU is known to have some issues. If you want to move to an ISP that isn't full LLU then you have to first get your phone line over to another phone provider (eg BT). Only once the line is back under someone else's control can you order broadband. So, the time it then takes to order and install broadband you are without your broadband service. That for me is not something I want to live with.

Ofcom sorted this almost completely with partial LLU but have not provided a similar requirement for full LLU (ie MACs are irrelevant). If the LLU industry are moving over to the full LLU model then Ofcom need to enforce a MAC process for full LLU the same as they do for partial otherwise it just acts as a lock-in.

I may well go back to BeThere next year as their broadband actually does function better at my place and I would get my static IP back. If I went with sky for full LLU then I would have downtime of anywhere up to 2 weeks as I would move my landline back to someone else and then have to order broadband. That is too much hassle.

In reply to a post by ian72:

I think the bigger problem is going from full LLU to partial LLU. If you try and go from full LLU to BT line rental and a separate ISP (whether LLU or BT Wholesale based) then you generally have to get the phone line back to BT before you can place any order on it.

There exists a system called Simultaneous Provide which attempts to get landline and broadband provisioned on day 1: http://usergroup.plus.net/simprovideorders.php

I know this system doesn't always work 100%, and isn't supported by all ISPs, but a system does exist.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by ian72:

I think the bigger problem is going from full LLU to partial LLU. If you try and go from full LLU to BT line rental and a separate ISP (whether LLU or BT Wholesale based) then you generally have to get the phone line back to BT before you can place any order on it.

There exists a system called Simultaneous Provide which attempts to get landline and broadband provisioned on day 1: http://usergroup.plus.net/simprovideorders.php

I know this system doesn't always work 100%, and isn't supported by all ISPs, but a system does exist.

Indeed. But, as you say doesn't work 100% and when it goes wrong it can be disastrous.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Also, if I have to move suppliers for any reason, sky would have been my first choice, but now they are not a choice at all, I will not go fully unbundled,

I tend to think like that myself. However it is widely accepted that LLU broadband is better than BT Wholesale broadband in many cases, and Sky's move means that two of the three major LLU providers will only take on customers who are prepared to go fully unbundled.

The question is, if the exchange only has Sky and TalkTalk LLU, is it worth keeping the broadband on BT Wholesale just for the sake of keeping the phone on BT Wholesale too?

If my exchange did not have Cable and Wireless then I would still be on the Bt network, I would not not have gone with Talk talk, even if they was not fully unbundled, I don't do talk Talk for anything.

The network I am on is only unbundled for broadband, simple and easy to move if I want to.

If i was not on the cbale and wireless network and when sky did come here i would have gone for Sky, but at that time they did not force people to have line rental. I doubt they will try and force people who don't have line rental and already use their broadband to change.

In reply to a post by adebov:

I fail to see how this is any worse than BT Retail insisting on you having line rental with them, in order to take BT Broadband.
[/quote

i don't agree with that either, less choice for people.

]

In reply to a post by tommy_boi:

Why do people have a problem with going fully unbundled, i've got my internet from sky and my telephone from them and cant really complain, so what is the big issue with doing this, or am i missing something?.

Because it is a pain in the neck to change providers and can be costly.

It is just a way of keeping customers and in my opinion it is wrong and should be stopped or moving from one supplier to another should be improved.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by ian72:

I think the bigger problem is going from full LLU to partial LLU. If you try and go from full LLU to BT line rental and a separate ISP (whether LLU or BT Wholesale based) then you generally have to get the phone line back to BT before you can place any order on it.

There exists a system called Simultaneous Provide which attempts to get landline and broadband provisioned on day 1: http://usergroup.plus.net/simprovideorders.php

I know this system doesn't always work 100%, and isn't supported by all ISPs, but a system does exist.

this sort of system should be supported and the government should make sure of it. Ofcom is a total waste of time.

In reply to a post by ian72:

Indeed. But, as you say doesn't work 100% and when it goes wrong it can be disastrous.

To be fair I haven't heard horror stories recently. That could be because the system is improving, or very few people actually know about the system yet.

Well thats Sky out for me EVEN if they were the only ones to unbundle here. I had doubts about the requirement to use their router, but this? no thanks. So thats me..and other members of the family they have lost as potential customers. I don't go for this triple play thing, there is usually something lacking in the deal for me. I guess I have to hope for Talk Talk (reseller) or C&W..... so the reality is continue the IPSC crawl for a long time to come.

Sky just unbundled a tiny exchange in this county - which kinda blows out the theory about financial viability - especially as its in a tourist village which is part empty for a chunk of the year - and no it isn't because of a nearby LLU exchange - this is the only one within about 30 miles.

I gave up trying to understand how this Broadband farce works.

Hi

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/which_isp/f/4037478...

I posted about this last week, and luckily signed up to Sky Broadband Unlimited (from O2 Standard Legacy) on the 29th August so I didn't have to take their Line Rental, I pay the same as Sky (£12.25) to the Post Office but they don't require a contract period which is ideal these days.

Zen will do a SIM provide - I think it may cost extra though

In reply to a post by warweezil:

Well thats Sky out for me EVEN if they were the only ones to unbundle here. I had doubts about the requirement to use their router, but this? no thanks. So thats me..and other members of the family they have lost as potential customers. I don't go for this triple play thing, there is usually something lacking in the deal for me. I guess I have to hope for Talk Talk (reseller) or C&W..... so the reality is continue the IPSC crawl for a long time to come.

The same here now, i am glad Cable and Wireless unbundled our exchange, I would not have gone with Talk Talk, even if they was not fully unbundled, I suppose I may have gone with Sky if I was not on C&W when Sky unbundled our Exchange, i would not do it now.

i am not sure about these triple pay things either, I done it once with BT, Broadband, home phone and broadband. Not sure that i would do it again.

I got no contract for my home phone now, no contract for my broadband, the only contract I got is for my mobile, wish i stuck with what I had to be honest, but once this contract is done i will go back to sim only. Still be a 12 month contract, but for a lot less money.

Sky just unbundled a tiny exchange in this county - which kinda blows out the theory about financial viability - especially as its in a tourist village which is part empty for a chunk of the year - and no it isn't because of a nearby LLU exchange - this is the only one within about 30 miles.

i don't understand it either, Talk Talk are also unbundling small exchanges, do it really pay them to do that? i know of someone who lives in a small town that Talk Talk have unbundled and he said they get bombarded with Talk Talk rubbish every week, at least once a month they get a Talk Talk rep on the door step, he told them he have no interest and don't even have a home phone never mind broadband.

A lot of people he talks to in the town is getting fed up of them as well.

I gave up trying to understand how this Broadband farce works.

It is sign as many people up as possible and then stick them in a long contract and then reduce the quality of their service.

when a ISp say they give you a monthly contract, then you know they have to give you a decent service because you can be gone pretty quick, but when they lock you into a 12 month or longer contract it makes me wonder.

That is not just for ISps either, utility companies, phone companies, mobile phone companies, ok I know you get a phone so that have to be paid for.


Why do utility companies want people to sign up for 12 months, they don't give us a new meter or anything, so it don't cost them anything.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by warweezil:

i don't understand it either, Talk Talk are also unbundling small exchanges, do it really pay them to do that? i know of someone who lives in a small town that Talk Talk have unbundled and he said they get bombarded with Talk Talk rubbish every week, at least once a month they get a Talk Talk rep on the door step, he told them he have no interest and don't even have a home phone never mind broadband.

Saturation of the larger exchanges forcing providers to look elsewhere for a better market share had it last summer with TT and Sky when they unbundled. For years and up to weeks before the unbundle, The Ivory Tower Brigade would come out with the profit margin shareholder subsidising rural exchanges etc, and no chance of anything but BT ADSL MAX for years to come, of course they were wrong they were always going to be, however it made them feel better.

Well my exchange serves 2 towns and has shown a static line count on Samknows.com at 8k lines for many years despite a lot of development going on. A BT engineer I spoke to recently put the true figure for this exchange at 10k lines. The one Sky unbundled is showing 3,800 residential lines and covers a wide very rural area of the county so I would expect a lot of long lines.

I am on monthly contracts for everything, Post Office for Phone, Tesco for Mobile and Enta for Internet, although I am looking hard for a move somewhere with an allowance that meets my needs and where the reseller has decent support, the BTw speedtester hasn't worked for me in a couple of years, I find evening browsing slow (with Opera telling me repeatedly that Im on a slow network) and neither my reseller or Enta support has shown any real interest, as ever with UK broadband, it seems once they have you signed up, they do the minimum to provide a decent service. Of course I cant get a BTw speedtest to show me what I am actually getting, but the Speedtest here seems to indicate an under-performance in my line.

Whatever happens it wont be Sky.. too much "lock in" with full LLU. The migration out from that is a joke and something OFCOM needs to sort out, which we all know wont happen with this regulator that seems to be frightened of upsetting the industry.

The reason I won't go fully LLU unbundled is because my phone line is with the Post Office who give me free mobile and international calls at weekends, and I signed up for 12 months with them for this reason, about 7 months ago. Sky for full line rental and calls is actually a poor deal telecoms wise, only slightly better than BT and definitely not worth committing to them fully.

I had both services from Sky 18 months ago and at the time they provided line rental and calls by reselling BT. They wrote to me every month stating they were going to move me onto their "Voice and Broadband" network rather than the two services being provided seperately, this is the full LLU, and at the time it was panned in the forums for reliability and speed drops. So I resisted until I finally had enough of having to phone them up to opt out every monht, then I moved by line rental back to BT and to PlusNet as ISP (which was rubbish). When BT declared a price increase I broke out of their contract and put my line rental to the Post Office.

The analogy of BT broadband and line does not really stack up because you cannot buy Sky Broadband from anyone other than Sky, so having a BT line does not restrict your ISP choice like having a Sky line does.

Unfortunately LLU is a must for me having a 60db margin on a 7km line, BT's DLM always manages my line down to about 1.3 mb, whereas I am currently with Vivaciti LLU and always hits 2meg. If Vivaciti would allow me on a lower noise margin (say 3 rather than 6) then I would be happy.When I was with Sky I called them up and was able to get the line set to 3 db and minimum interleaving giving be 2.5meg and 30ms ping.