Sky LLU & Long Lines

Hi

I'm thinking of ordering Sky Broadband Unlimited after my Sky+HD 2TB is installed on 14th Sept, I live a fair way from exchange and estimate my line to be about 4-5Km's long, I havn't yet used the openreach line at my property as only moved in, in may 2013 and took Virgin Cable as speeds where better.

Unfortunatly Virgin Media has already managed to pi$$ me off 3 times in this short space of time and thats on top of the poor reliability of there cable infrastructure.

I'm looking to move to sky as they are a FTTC provider and it will be easier to upgrade once FTTC is available at my exchange and also no fair usage oir Traffic Management on there Sky LLU services.

I am estimated by sky to receive between 1.9mbps - 4.9mbps, I expect around 3mbps, But what I want to know is whether Sky's LLU works well with long line providing good stability and keeping dropouts to a minimum.

Thanks in advance.

Hi pete mate, I sent you a message on the VMC forum,

Ok, That's great here, I have heard similar before, re: more control over the LLU, gonna get on 2 them and see if i can add it to my sky order tomorrow, Absolutely [censored] off with Virgin media.

Unfortunatly Virgin Media has already managed to pi$$ me off 3 times in this short space of time and thats on top of the poor reliability of there cable infrastructure.

I had virginedia 60Mbps I believe yet I couldn't stream YouTube without buffering and it would automatically slow down to 240p. I had packet loss too...

I'm looking to move to sky as they are a FTTC provider and it will be easier to upgrade once FTTC is available at my exchange and also no fair usage oir Traffic Management on there Sky LLU services.

Yep BT infinity may come sooner, Sky is usually a few days to a couple of weeks behind as they need to install a link. In most cases Sky install this in advanced though. At most it shouldn't be long. I have Sky Fibre and I can pull 9Mb/s but I don't notice much difference between their 40Mbps package and the 80Mbps one in reality. I strongly suggest starting at the slower speed and if you need the faster speed you can always upgrade. You can't really downgrade usually though!

I am estimated by sky to receive between 1.9mbps - 4.9mbps, I expect around 3mbps, But what I want to know is whether Sky's LLU works well with long line providing good stability and keeping dropouts to a minimum.

Sky run quite strict DLM. Other providers, even BT in my experience, opt for faster speeds and will accept dropouts a few times a day. On my BT ADSL it would drop daily and often need a router restart to reconnect as the HH would crash.

On the contrary Sky want absolute stability, the way their management works is for the line to stay connected... With Sky they will slow your speeds down a little more if the lines not totally stable. Say the line drops out 5 times a day - Sky will slow it down a bit so that it doesn't do this. Other providers are much more likely to leave it going faster and dropping out.

A Sky line often stays connected for months on end. It's the beauty of their DLM. Some people love it, others hate it. They move from BT or somewhere where they had a 3db noise margin, 10 drop outs a day and an unsustainable speed. They lose speed with Sky and even though it's stable they're unhappy as it's a little slower.

For me I love the Sky approach, it just works and it's stable as hell. Their router also never ever locks up. My Virgin SuperHub locked up literally daily. The wireless on it was also terrible. I don't know if you have the superhub 2 (and if you do it may be better). Sky should be fine for you though. Remember netflix only needs 0.3 Mbps to play in lowest quality, so you don't need a super speed connection to do things.

Thanks for your reply ukhardy07
As far as I know this house did have Sky Broadband before I moved in but before i got to check speed they had disconnected, and they didn't really pay attention to how fast or really how it worked.

I have also since ripped all cabling out of my house as it was a right mess.

Just plug straight into the master socket or even better the test socket and it'll be fine. Sky is only unstable on lines which need an engineer out usually & they're fairly good at getting an engineer out to you & also very rarely bill for call outs (even where they probably should). They can afford to loss-make on broadband as their TV brings in so much profits and forcing line rental down peoples throats means they make big profits on calls.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Wed 04-Sep-13 00:22:31)

I was thinking of putting an ssfp or adsl nation xte-5000 adsl filter faceplate on, but that won't be until after the broadbands activated and depends on line speeds, but I will plug into test socket from activation date to ensure best DLM setup.

I'm also not going to use the Sky broadband until the 11th day as I will still have virgin and I'm assuming it will help it lock on at a higher line profile as the DLM don't detect any stress on the line.

I'm also not going to use the Sky broadband until the 11th day as I will still have virgin and I'm assuming it will help it lock on at a higher line profile as the DLM don't detect any stress on the line.

The only thing you need to do is to keep the router connected. If anything using the lines probably better.

Filtered faceplates a great idea and test socket even better

Edited by ukhardy07 (Wed 04-Sep-13 00:48:27)

As an ex-Sky customer I would strongly advise anyone from having anything to do with this company. Their business practices are unethical and dishonest to say the least and if the service fails to live up to your expectations (as it does many) the cost of leaving and getting your phone line transferred or reinstalled to BT will be costly either in money, time, inconvenience or all three.

Ten reasons why Sky is to be avoided:

1) The sales people work on commission and will say anything you want to hear, and offer you any deal to lure you into switching your phone line over and sticking you into a 12 month contract. If all else fails, they'll offer you their "try us for 30 days, no obligation, you can cancel and you won't lose a penny" (neglecting to mention you'll lose your phone line and number).

2) The service is slow, slower than any broadband service I've used to date. Even accessing normal websites is slow in my experience with caching of websites. The reason being, they offer so many cheap deals (£2.50 a month for unlimited?!) and advertise so much, the service is just swamped with too many users. The old saying applies, you get what you pay for. If you want a quality service and fast speeds, don't look at big ISP's, look for the smaller, specialised ones.

3) Sky Broadband's IP addresses are dynamic and change often, randomly. Sometimes daily for some users, as in my case. If you need a static IP (or even just a stable IP that doesn't change often), forget Sky. Also there's only ONE dynamic IP DNS updating service in their router (which conveniently for Sky, you have to pay monthly) to use. Despite numerous free and cheaper dynamic IP DNS updating services, Sky refuse customers requests to add them to their routers with a simple firmware release. Discussions and suggestions about dynamic IP DNS updating services are censored/blocked by Sky forum staff.

4) Using Sky Broadband is dependent on having your phone line switched to Sky Talk which is not part of the BT network. That has serious financial and practical implications you need to consider, both in terms of calls and switching broadband later. You won't be able to use widely used money-saving free call services like 18185, even calls to freephone numbers that divert freely, are chargeable calls with Sky Talk (although they won't tell you this, until you get the massive phone bill).

5) Sky's routers have a habit of randomly rebooting and changing their IP addresses (at least mine did). Hopeless if you're running services or gaming, or rely on a stable connection.

6) Sky support is severely lacking. If you have any problems, you're directed to the user support forum. If you want to email someone or be able to speak to someone on the phone, and be talked through a problem, forget it with Sky. They're not interested.

7) When you finally decide to leave Sky (either because the broadband service fails to live up to expectations, your phone bills are too high, or because you've seen a better offer), expect delays and obstacles. Your phone line will be held in limbo for WEEKS forcing you to have a new line installed if you're in business. You're likely lose your telephone number too with many teleco companies unable to port numbers across from Sky.

8) The company and its staff are blatantly dishonest and misleading, in their sales approach when dealing with new customers. Take anything they say or promise with a large pinch of salt.

9) They suddenly "invent" terms and conditions if you take up their "try us for 30 days at no obligation" invitation and then decide to leave within the 30 days.. Like the "you need to give us 30 days notice to cancel" (and thus pay months line rental/broadband/be stuck with high call charges etc).

10) The company, and its staff are all smiles and polite when you're joining, then treat you with utter contempt when you announce you're leaving them. Don't expect cooperation and a smooth quick transfer..Instead, expect obstacles, delays and long waits, despite the governments and OfCom's instance that Internet customers be able to transfer between providers quickly and easily.

Edited by deleted (Wed 04-Sep-13 01:03:16)

Received loud and clear hardy!

Morphix:

1) Same with nearly all Broadband ISP's and even most sales staff..Mobile, TV, Insurance ect...

2) I can agree with the fact that it is a very busy network, But if you can only acheive a max speed of 5mbps on an adsl line in your area then Sky's LLU network will cope fine and give the best stability too, Small broadband companies push the adls line to the max ofter putting it on frastpath and 3db snr and this cause packets loss and errors and stability issues, So Sky's LLU is great for lines over 3kms.

3) Nearly all ISP's supply Dynamic IP's some can give out static IP's, Even Virgin Media use dynamic IP's but there Mac address system remembers them for longer and will keep them for a very long time if the modem has not been offline for a long time say couple of days.

4) In my experience as a prvious sky talk and sky bb lite user I had a great experience with Sky Talk only think missing was inclusive 0845 calls and even now they have got them too,

5) All ISP provided and some brought wireless routers have issues, they wouldn't be wireless routers if they didn't, and I'm planning to use Apple's Airport equipment with my Sky Hub which will effectively become a modem once wireless is deactivated and some settings changed.

6) I don't any ISP has good tech support as they are just reading from the hymn sheet.

7) I'm already aware of that and like before a lot of providers use there own line and not bt's TalkTalk do it exactly the same as sky.

8) Most companies do that, Sky is the least to worry about, very few serious cases unlike other I have experienced.

9) Same with nearly all ISP's (30day happiness guarantee, T's&c's apply.

10) I have never experienced that with bSkyb.

My General opinion on Sky in my experience is:

They have always been friendly and understanding, when I have got through to a foreign call center or foreign representative I have never been shouted at or given a cold shoulder when I have ask to be transferred to another UK operator, They have always tailor made packages for me and have been patient whilst trying something they knew wouldn't work, but because I wanted them to try it they did it.

There broadband isn't built for speed.... It's built for cost effective reliability and to come in one package with calls and tv in toe and to also sett no barriers for downloading or uploading and no port blocking.

It is very hard to find another UK isp without fair usage or traffic or port management.

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

Received loud and clear hardy!

It is very hard to find another UK isp without fair usage or traffic or port management.

Check out Xilo/Uno. That's an ISP that knows how to offer good services, at sensible prices, with managed usage and provides REAL 1 to 1 customer support.

IMO big ISP's should be avoided. Smaller, specialised ISP's like Xilo are the way to go if you want a decent service. Check out all the reviews and why Xilo is one of the highest rated for performance and service.

Whilst companies like Sky, Virgin, Orange, EE etc, rank up the highest complaints on OfCom.

Yes but there prices are much higher than Sky, and for most adsl lines scoring speeds of 5-7mbps its not worth all the trouble....

Who do you use for Broadband currently?

Ill send link in PM

First you were a Sky customer for a few days, I've been a customer for around 13 - 15 years in some form. Your dealings with them were extremely limited and yet you act like you know the company inside out.

1) The sales people work on commission and will say anything you want to hear, and offer you any deal to lure you into switching your phone line over and sticking you into a 12 month contract. If all else fails, they'll offer you their "try us for 30 days, no obligation, you can cancel and you won't lose a penny" (neglecting to mention you'll lose your phone line and number).

You agreed to Sky line rental. Sky let you leave within the first 30 days as promised, it's not their fault that you chose to choose Primus who do not do a free BT line install. You could leave Sky for free. If you had switched back to BT or TalkTalk to name a few the install would be free and would not cost you a penny.

Not all people are on commission, some are & they make a sale without lying.

2) The service is slow, slower than any broadband service I've used to date. Even accessing normal websites is slow in my experience with caching of websites. The reason being, they offer so many cheap deals (£2.50 a month for unlimited?!) and advertise so much, the service is just swamped with too many users. The old saying applies, you get what you pay for. If you want a quality service and fast speeds, don't look at big ISP's, look for the smaller, specialised ones.

So untrue. This is the most false thing you've ever come out with. Sky use the old easynet network and have invested heavily into this network. It has plenty of backhaul and is certainly not slow. I participated in a trial around a year ago where a device was attached to my router, this device took speedtests every few minutes for around 4 months. My average speed came out at 73.4Mbps with upto 6 people using the connection. My BT infinity averaged at 65Mbps with nobody really using it (apart from me occasionally). I have had Sky at a total of 6 properties all over the UK, Whitby, Doncaster, Sheffield, Richmond, Egham and near canary wharf. All lines performed at the sync speed, 4 of these have been fibre connections at 40Mbps or 80Mbps and always got the full fibre speeds. ADSL on Sky shares the same backhaul. If Sky is managing 73Mbps on my fibre connection then it's clearly managing anybody on upto 20Mbps basic Sky broadband too without even a worry. So on the whole Sky performs well.

3) Sky Broadband's IP addresses are dynamic and change often, randomly. Sometimes daily for some users, as in my case. If you need a static IP (or even just a stable IP that doesn't change often), forget Sky. Also there's only ONE dynamic IP DNS updating service in their router (which conveniently for Sky, you have to pay monthly) to use. Despite numerous free and cheaper dynamic IP DNS updating services, Sky refuse customers requests to add them to their routers with a simple firmware release. Discussions and suggestions about dynamic IP DNS updating services are censored/blocked by Sky forum staff.

If you want a router more advanced go out and buy one, you can easily extract the password in around 5 seconds for your own router. In terms of static IP, Sky never promised to offer this, most providers do not offer it - at least budget end mass market ISPs. A static IP is usually something people do not require. Also Sky IPs are quite sticky so if you drop connection most of the time you reconnect with the same IP. I have had months of the same IP on Sky but then again I do not turn my router off.

You are basically arguing that Sky is in the wrong for not providing something they have never provided and never advertised they would provide. That's like me buying a dishwasher and arguing it's terrible because it doesn't wash my laundry. It was never supposed to & it was never sold to do that.

4) Using Sky Broadband is dependent on having your phone line switched to Sky Talk which is not part of the BT network. That has serious financial and practical implications you need to consider, both in terms of calls and switching broadband later. You won't be able to use widely used money-saving free call services like 18185, even calls to freephone numbers that divert freely, are chargeable calls with Sky Talk (although they won't tell you this, until you get the massive phone bill).

Most ISPs require you to use their phone line and not BTs. That is standard nowadays. They do this because ISPs do not make money on broadband (as it's so cheap) instead they make profits out of the calls made.

It does not have any financial implications for most people. The general customer does not choose Primus like you did. Most customers move between major ISPs. E.g. I may go with Sky and then choose to go back to BT. BT will pay for the connection to BTs equipment. It's free for the consumer.

Another example. I am with Sky and I choose to go to TalkTalk. Again talktalk pay for the connection to talktalk line renal. It's free for the consumer.

The call services you mentioned are by no means 'widely used.' Some people just search google for a freephone number or geographical number, most just pay for the 08 call, a very minor few use the services you describe.

Freephone numbers are not chargeable on Sky.

5) Sky's routers have a habit of randomly rebooting and changing their IP addresses (at least mine did). Hopeless if you're running services or gaming, or rely on a stable connection.

Rubbish. My Sky router has been on for 4 months straight now, not turned itself off one and not dropped connection as far as I can tell.

The university houses I rent out have free Sky Fibre 80Mbps that I provide. One of them plugs in behind the washing machine (so the plugs not accessible) and in a 6 bedroom student house had an uptime of over a year when I went in the house to do renovations. I was amazed, but then again why would they ever turn it off?

6) Sky support is severely lacking. If you have any problems, you're directed to the user support forum. If you want to email someone or be able to speak to someone on the phone, and be talked through a problem, forget it with Sky. They're not interested.

If you have problems the best bet is to call up. They are interested and I've had engineers out before. I had a fault which took a few months to get resolved and whilst I was unhappy at the time I did have around 4/5 engineers out, regular updates via text and an email to a guy in Customer solutions team who dealt with the case personally so I never spoke to loads of different people. I can't say supports 'severely lacking.' It's also British or Irish support and I've had conversations with Sky about what my favourite cocktail is and had a good laugh with them. Cannot complain.

7) When you finally decide to leave Sky (either because the broadband service fails to live up to expectations, your phone bills are too high, or because you've seen a better offer), expect delays and obstacles. Your phone line will be held in limbo for WEEKS forcing you to have a new line installed if you're in business. You're likely lose your telephone number too with many teleco companies unable to port numbers across from Sky.

If the phone bills are too high you shouldn't make as many calls / check that Sky support the divert style numbers which you rely on. They stopped this in 2010. If you find a better deal Sky usually match it.

The number can be ported over without an issue.

The line is only held in limbo when you order a cease on the line (like you did). This is meant for when you are moving out of a property for good, not when you are moving providers.

8) The company and its staff are blatantly dishonest and misleading, in their sales approach when dealing with new customers. Take anything they say or promise with a large pinch of salt.

Did they let you leave? Yes. Did they provide the broadband for 2.50 as agreed. YES. Did they provide a static IP, no, but then again they told you it was a work in progress not that you would get it.

9) They suddenly "invent" terms and conditions if you take up their "try us for 30 days at no obligation" invitation and then decide to leave within the 30 days.. Like the "you need to give us 30 days notice to cancel" (and thus pay months line rental/broadband/be stuck with high call charges etc).

Agree this seems unfair & I'd argue on this one a little bit with them.

10) The company, and its staff are all smiles and polite when you're joining, then treat you with utter contempt when you announce you're leaving them. Don't expect cooperation and a smooth quick transfer..Instead, expect obstacles, delays and long waits, despite the governments and OfCom's instance that Internet customers be able to transfer between providers quickly and easily.

The transfer process is the same as any other full LLU provider. Perhaps it's not perfect but 99.9999% of times it runs smoothly without obstacles, delays or long waits.

Will you ever stop moaning? I can bet your issues with Sky were something silly such as faulty router (quite possible) or using an extension socket etc. If you had posted here with your stats and issues at the time I'm sure you'd have found Sky fine in the end. It's a shame it went badly for you but for the vast majority it's fine.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Thu 12-Sep-13 17:19:13)

Excellent response, couldn't have said better myself!!

I have been a sky customer almost from the start. Three years ago I moved into an area with no sky LLU so I went to BT. The service was horrendous and the foreign call centres worked on a script - usual response to any ongoing problem was to send a new router! Openreach installed the equipment in this at the time brand new property. I said there was a problem with the phone line and they said I must have done something and it would be chargeable if an engineer came out. It turned out to be wired incorrectly so I didn't have to pay anything but I still had dropouts and variable speeds from 0.1 mbps to 4.5 mbps download and 0.1 to 0.3 upload.

Sky LLU came to my area and I switched providers. My speed (ADSL 2) doubled overnight and now it is constantly around 16.9 mbps download and 0.91 upload. Any problems I ring Sky and they are sorted quickly with helpful people who are friendly and professional. They are also a whole lot cheaper than BT and I get special offers to stay with them.

Having an axe to grind is one thing. Seeing as Sky are consistently rated second best for customer service on broadband I am confused as to the whole of this post. I have included the Ofcom figures below.

http://consumers.ofcom.org.uk/2013/06/latest-telecom...

In reply to a post by Janthril:

Sky LLU came to my area and I switched providers. My speed (ADSL 2) doubled overnight and now it is constantly around 16.9 mbps download and 0.91 upload. Any problems I ring Sky and they are sorted quickly with helpful people who are friendly and professional. They are also a whole lot cheaper than BT and I get special offers to stay with them.

Glad to hear that since my cousin is thinking of moving from TalkTalk full LLU to Sky full LLU now that the exchange has been Sky LLU'd. He�s currently a Sky TV subscriber and it would certainly be worth his while taking a Sky phone, BB and TV deal

Sky has to be the fastest ADSL LLU provider i have witnessed even faster than 02 and BE.

A friend was on AOL UK and when they sold out to Carphone warehouse his connection halfed and they reckoned that was all his line could handle was around 3mb.

He switched to Sky LLU and hes getting an almost constant 11mb download now.

Sky run their DSL for stability not raw speed. They tend to be slightly slower than some other operators due to use of error correction and noise mitigation to ensure lines resync as infrequently as possible.

All of the Sky routers baring the first ever white one have been really decent. You can really set and forget them without any issues what-so-ever. The range was pretty poor on the Pre-N routers though (the first one being an exception, it had okay WiFi but was terribly unstable until a few firmware upgrades).

Edited by ukhardy07 (Wed 18-Sep-13 02:59:26)

Not yet installed, got Sky Hub today install on Monday!

In reply to a post by pcoventry76:

I seem to be having some PL issues on my line - Not sure why.

On that graph I think the red occurs when your line is maxed out - and its not unusual for a maxed out line (downloading something?) to stop responding to pings from the outside. BQM can only see that as PL.

In reply to a post by morphix:

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

Received loud and clear hardy!

It is very hard to find another UK isp without fair usage or traffic or port management.

Check out Xilo/Uno. That's an ISP that knows how to offer good services, at sensible prices, with managed usage and provides REAL 1 to 1 customer support.

IMO big ISP's should be avoided. Smaller, specialised ISP's like Xilo are the way to go if you want a decent service. Check out all the reviews and why Xilo is one of the highest rated for performance and service.

Whilst companies like Sky, Virgin, Orange, EE etc, rank up the highest complaints on OfCom.

Those smaller ISP's have really small usage caps, something that should be avoided in this day and age.

Also, it's quite obvious that the larger ISP's will have more complains than the smaller ones, after all, Sky have millions more customers than these smaller ISP's.

There are many people like myself, who have 0 issues with Sky. Its up 24/7, gives me my full 38/8 connection speed and never slows down. Pings are also ~20ms to UK servers whenever I test.

There are smaller ISPs like mine with great customer service, that don't need to offer packages with high usage allowance, as they are un-metered from 7.00pm till 7.00am and ALL weekends. Collectively, this equates to being un-metered round the clock for 4.5 days out of a 7 day week.

In reply to a post by pcoventry76:

In reply to a post by professor973:

There are smaller ISPs like mine with great customer service, that don't need to offer packages with high usage allowance, as they are un-metered from 7.00pm till 7.00am and ALL weekends. Collectively, this equates to being un-metered round the clock for 4.5 days out of a 7 day week.

To be fair whilst your ISP is good (used them in the past) they are only giving someone for £19.99 what I get for Free (or £7.50 chargeable)

I was replying with regard to download allowance with smaller ISPs, not price, though if you are getting the Freeola customer service I am paying for, for free, you have a very good deal, though judging by your profile you are not getting the 16mbps I am for a start! I was taught at school that you get nothing for free. This certainly applies to Broadband when forced to take other services or are tied in.

Edited by professor973 (Mon 23-Sep-13 00:50:57)

Edited by deleted (Mon 23-Sep-13 00:55:46)

In reply to a post by pcoventry76:

No I can only get 8mbps. And it's truely unlimited.

Smaller they might be but charge more to make up for it they do.

However I've just come on 120mbps if you want to play the "speed game"

For me 120 was overkill I don't need it - nor do I want to pay for it anymore

And yes I get very good CS 24/7 freephone based in Scotland, well as good as nothing can buy

I initially replied to a claim that "Smaller ISPs usually give smaller usage allowance" and gave what I felt a fair example of that not being the case. You then started the "Game" with the "I get all you get for free" comment, which is patently not true. The law of physics will tell you nothing is for free, especially where you are forced to take overpriced TV to get "Free" Broadband. If you have just "Come on" at 15mbps, you still are not getting the speed I am, or is it you don't know your bits from your bytes. If that is the case, you could qualify for one of those totally incompetent ISP customer service bods we have all come across.

I suggest the two of you go and do something else for a few hours.