Webwise/Phorm

jsut had a chat with talk talk and they said if they choose to add webwise/phorm service they won't be adding it to customer account with out their permission.

I have this also in writing

Nice to see a ISP acting responsibly

Yup, this is how i understand it will be also.

But your data will still go though the phorm system, even if you are opted out, the only difference is it won't use the data.

according to an email I got it won't.

I made them clarify the point, Only customers who what phorm will have it turned on all other customers will not even use the system

Nope, it wont route through the phorm system if you opt out.

In reply to a post by TalkTalkBoy:

Nope, it wont route through the phorm system if you opt out.

You believe that then? From what I have been reading it can go one of two ways, the data will be striped out at the end, so your browsing habits will still go thought the system, or your data will be not go thought the system. The problem is there is no way to find out for sure.

Phrom is a American Ex-spyware company, do you think we can trust them? They come up with all this rubbish about it being good for us the user, because we will only see the adverts we want to see and it will protect us from phishing sites. the two main browsers have protection in, so to most security software. I don't care what adverts are splashed on my screen, I don't take any notice of them anyway, ITV don't send different adverts to my T.v, than my neighbours.


If Bt do use Phorm, then I will be gone to another ISp, I think people should vote with their feet and boycott ISPs that uses Phorm.

yep, am sure with what i say. I work for CPWN who own/run and maintain the talktalk network. It was one of the questions i've asked before. If you do not opt in, your traffic will not hit the phorm server

In reply to a post by TalkTalkBoy:

yep, am sure with what i say. I work for CPWN who own/run and maintain the talktalk network. It was one of the questions i've asked before. If you do not opt in, your traffic will not hit the phorm server

I know who Car phone [censored] house is and I know what they try and run. I also know that if they tell you the amount of lies that your sales people come out with, then you be better off not believing a word they say.

I would not trust Talk Talk or CPW as far as I could throw them and I would not trust a ex-spyware company like Phorm either. That is why if BT do use Phorm, I will be gone.

Woah, easy tiger!

TalkTalk Boy is in a good position to know if he works for TalkTalk, and despite what many here would have you believe - most companies aren't the underhand crooks people make them out to be. If Carphone Warehouse were purposely misleading customers, there'd be far more serious trouble surrounding them than there is now.

matt

Does anyone know when Talktalk are scheduled to go live wiht Phorm, I want to make sure I know about it in advance so I can make sure I have not opted in by mistake - I take it we will easily be able to see our status? (opt in /opt out).

Cheers

Barney

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by TalkTalkBoy:

yep, am sure with what i say. I work for CPWN who own/run and maintain the talktalk network. It was one of the questions i've asked before. If you do not opt in, your traffic will not hit the phorm server

I know who Car phone [censored] house is and I know what they try and run. I also know that if they tell you the amount of lies that your sales people come out with, then you be better off not believing a word they say.

I would not trust Talk Talk or CPW as far as I could throw them and I would not trust a ex-spyware company like Phorm either. That is why if BT do use Phorm, I will be gone.

I agree with you totally here mate talktalk do lie, this is going off the question of Phorm but i rang them the other day regarding talktalk phone line as i am with o2 broadband i was not sure how this would affect my broadband, i ask the question,. There reply no sir your o2 broadband will not be affected in any way the guy i spoke to said he had o2 broadband with the talktalk phone line, which i thought was rather odd as he worked for them I did post a question on this forum asking if anyone else had this setup and there i was told you can't have a talktalk land line with o2 broadband ,this has now been confirmed by o2 them selfs. Dont trust them lads they are LIARS

Technically it is possible, i.e. who of WLR product, but whether TT spot this and use it when you don't take their broadband I don't know.

WLR starts at around £10 due to its wholesale costs, so would most likely cost you more.

TT do use BTw for their voice only offerings but they are more expensive if you don't take TT line rental. See the TT website. They will always try to sell voice with "free" broadband ie a full LLU product. But in answer to the original off topic question, yes you can have O2 BB with a TT voice service but it must be on a BTw line.

http://www.talktalk.co.uk/products/landline
http://www.talktalk.co.uk/products/landline/line-rental

Edited by deleted (Mon 06-Apr-09 14:22:33)

according to an email I got it won't.

I made them clarify the point, Only customers who what phorm will have it turned on all other customers will not even use the system

@Cobra001 - thanks for the information. Please could you clarify one point: what do you mean by "the system"?

As I understand it, phorm "give" Deep Packet Inspection (DPI) hardware & software to the ISP who then "own" and operate this kit. Is this "the system" you are talking about?

Or are you talking about the other half, which is owned and by phorm and which receives data from the DPI kit?

As I am sure you appreciate, this split ownership, makes it important to be very clear just which bit is being talked about.

Why not ask CPW/TalkTalk for THEIR version of the Webwise system diagram - the one on Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Phorm_cookie_diagr...
or the one on the BT Webwise site
http://webwise.bt.com/webwise/customer_choice.html

It would be in their interests to publish their system which avoids the non opted in customer going anywhere near Phorm supplied, Phorm programmed DPI kit. And to do so with a diagram of their own system.

Also ask them HOW they distinguish between their customers who are in the system and those who aren't. By means of cookies? By means of browser hijack? Or by a network based system based on fixed IP address or address ranges? If they are genuinely trying to provide a proper ISP customer opt-in, then they will tell you the details. If they are trying to fudge the issue, with weasel words, you will get a vague answer and no diagram.

If they fudge or waffle or dissemble (or talk vaguely about the customer who has not opted in "not going through Phorm's system") then they are trying to pull the wool over your eyes. And believe me - the ISPs are very good at that and have been doing it for well over a year, and in BTs case for over three years.

It IS possible for the ISP to provide a genuine no-interception opt-in, (for their own customers) but they have to make it very clear how they do it - there is so much wriggle room and weasel wording used in this argument, you have to really check what they are saying on the record. Phrases like "Phorm's equipment" are just a way of avoiding the question - because the DPI snooping kit that your traffic goes through in their network, is NOT Phorm's equipment, it is merely supplied and programmed and updated and probably maintained by Phorm, but it "belongs" to and is "operated" by the ISP at least in theory. That's the wriggle room and the weasel wording.

You might also ask them how their TalkTalk system avoids abusing website copyright, and forging cookies, and abusing website trademarks.
It can't.

You might ask them if their system can detect and respect private Facebook "Friends" pages. It can't.

You might ask them if their system will avoid the accusation of diversion of trade by exploiting website databases to serve the websites visitors with ads for their competitors products. It can't.

Don't let TalkTalk sit on the sidelines and pretend to be whiter than BT or Virgin Media. Make them prove it, absolutely clearly. And if they won't, if they insist on being coy, on witholding details, then assume that they are simply pulling the wool over your eyes, hedging their bets and simply looking to attract customers who are leaving BT or VM.

It is not possible to use Phorm's system and maintain with a straight face that you are respecting privacy or copyright or database law or data protection legislation. But I have no doubt the ISPs will try it. And TalkTalk are trying that now. Let them produce the evidence to back up these claims or just line up with BT and VM as one of the villains of the piece.

Come on ISPs - its time to talk turkey and stop hiding behind Phorm and Mr Ertugrul. It's YOUR time to answer some awkward questions. YOU are in the firing line now - its your DPI kit, you operate it, so tell us how it works!

as revrob says,

phorm gift the contraversial kit to the isp so phorm can say "no me guv, i do not intercept anything" and the isp can say "opted out traffic does not pass through phorm servers"

but the fact is the isp is operating phorm supplied and programmed kit to intercept communications (to check opt-out status then mirror the traffic to the phorm servers)

it is also to do with DPA responsibility as well, so phorm can say "we do not process the raw data, just the anonymised data digest so dpa don't apply to us"

phorm appears to have in effect placed all the contraversial parts of the system in the hands of the isp, so it is the isp who take most of the flak and legal issues

peter

Edited by bluecar1 (Tue 14-Apr-09 08:09:25)

It may not matter anyway see
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7998009.stm

As if it mattered in the first place Zzzzzzzzzzzz

In reply to a post by bluecar1:

as revrob says,

phorm gift the contraversial kit to the isp so phorm can say "no me guv, i do not intercept anything" and the isp can say "opted out traffic does not pass through phorm servers"

but the fact is the isp is operating phorm supplied and programmed kit to intercept communications (to check opt-out status then mirror the traffic to the phorm servers)

it is also to do with DPA responsibility as well, so phorm can say "we do not process the raw data, just the anonymised data digest so dpa don't apply to us"

phorm appears to have in effect placed all the contraversial parts of the system in the hands of the isp, so it is the isp who take most of the flak and legal issues

peter

That is the problem, I sent a e,ail to Bt syaing that I don't like the idea of this phorm and being spied on and if they do go though with the system then I may be looking at a new Isp when my contract is up. I had a phone and emails, they sent me load of links.

I had a look at them all but still not happy. The diagram that Bt have do show that when opted out the data don't go though the Phorm servers but stay with Bt, if they keep t6hat system, then I will be happier as at least I know it is staying with BT. But what is neded is a opt in, not a opt out.

In reply to a post by OpenAccess:

It may not matter anyway see
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7998009.stm

Not going to make any difference in the fact that Phorm will launch or not. asthis postfrom the BT forums say, it is not Porm that is being looked at. But it may give us opt in instead of opt-out which is a start.
But I bet the ISps will them market it in a way that people think it will be great benefit to them.

Bt will put something like, now with Webwise, secure browsing and protection from Phising and in small text they will then tell you about the so called relevant adverts.

Unless Phorm goes belly up it will come, but it depends on E.U how it will come.

In reply to a post by crusader666:

As if it mattered in the first place Zzzzzzzzzzzz

Well apparently to a lot of people it does. Are you just one of these people who are walked all over and that companies and government can do what they like with your privacy?
that is the problem with people in this country, they lie back and let it happen.