Broadband problem: packet loss

I have been with TalkTalk for almost six years now, and apart from a small niggle with the broadband at the very beginning have been a happy customer so far.

However, I experience problems with my broadband that TalkTalk do not seem to be able to help me with. Here the short summary:

Since Sunday, 22/07/12, from about 3pm my internet connection is no longer working. The router has not problems to establish a connection (which appears to be stable), but I cannot use the internet. The reason appears to be lost packets: E.g. if I ping 212.74.99.30 (i.e. www.talktalk.co.uk) I get between 20% and 95% packet loss.

I get the same behaviour if I use the master test socket. My router is a Netgear DG834Gv3. I have not changed anything on my side, the problem on Sunday started suddenly.

I phoned TT CS on Monday morning. They did a quick line test (?) and could see no problem on their side. But they could see loads of dropped connections. They arranged a call back for the evening to look at this issue in more detail. During the evening call back they did an extended line test (lasted about 2 minutes), which again did show up no problems on their side. They reset something at the phone exchange (?) and told me to use the master test socket (they call it test socket) for 24h and call back if the problem persists.

Of course, the problem persisted so I called TT CS again this morning. They repeated that they can see no problem from their side, but notice loads of line drops. And then the guy told me, as the problem persists with the master test socket, the issue must be my internal wiring! This cannot be right, can it?

I asked to talk to the manager, and he only promised me a call-back within 8 hours.

I am not sure what to do now. Any advice on how I can resolve this issue?

Some more details about the connection: My exchange is Isleworth, London. I have been LLU'ed many years ago.

Example numbers from yesterday evening: Down 1307 kbps / 45 db / 10 db, Up 1002 kbps / 13.5 db / 6 db.

If I check the router's logs I can see that there are up to 20 minutes between "LCP is allowed to come up" and "LCP down". But in between I cannot use the internet because of the packet loss issue. This morning I also found "Loss of synchronization: 1" in the logs once.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

UPDATE: I got the call-back from the manager before lunch today. He repeated that the issue must be with my internal wiring and the only option he gave me was to book an engineer's visit for £50. I have done this, although I am not sure whether this will be of any help. Will the £50 be wasted?

Edited by deleted (Tue 24-Jul-12 12:50:11)

Just out of interest have you unplugged your router from power for a while (maybe 30 minutes) as that might help the situation.

In reply to a post by techguy:

Just out of interest have you unplugged your router from power for a while (maybe 30 minutes) as that might help the situation.

Yes. E.g. overnight from Sunday to Monday, and again overnight Monday to Tuesday (today). Did not change anything.

You don't say if you are connecting via wifi or not? If you are using wifi, do you still get the packet loss using a wired connection? Packet loss can be common with wifi interference, so need to rule that out before blaming the broadband connection.

In reply to a post by Futaura:

You don't say if you are connecting via wifi or not? If you are using wifi, do you still get the packet loss using a wired connection? Packet loss can be common with wifi interference, so need to rule that out before blaming the broadband connection.

Yes, I use a wired connection.

In reply to a post by robby74:

They reset something at the phone exchange (?) and told me to use the master socket (they call it test socket) for 24h and call back if the problem persists.

Did you unscrew the faceplate of the master socket to access the test socket?

http://helpforum.sky.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-i...

Edited by Oliver341 (Tue 24-Jul-12 12:10:05)

Firstly, something critical... You mentioned the master socket - this is not actually the same as a test socket. If you have a newer type NTE5 master socket, the test socket can be found after carefully removing the faceplate which forms the lower half of the socket. If you do have a test socket, and the problems persists while connected to that, then this would either indicate a router, line, exchange or external network fault. If you don't have a test socket, internal wiring could still be causing the problem as TT CS say. How many extension sockets do you have? If you only have one socket in total, with no extension wiring, then that's essentially the same as a test socket anyway.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

Did you unscrew the faceplate of the master socket to access the test socket?

Yes, I did unscrew the faceplate and used the test socket. I seem to have used the wrong terminology for the test socket, sorry.

In reply to a post by robby74:

Yes, I did unscrew the faceplate and used the test socket. I seem to have used the wrong terminology for the test socket, sorry.

Well, in that case it's nothing to do with your wiring (assuming you've tried a different microfilter, ethernet cable and modem cable).

Edited by Oliver341 (Tue 24-Jul-12 12:18:36)

In reply to a post by Futaura:

You mentioned the master socket - this is not actually the same as a test socket.

Yes, I used the wrong term there. When I wrote master socket, I meant the test socket which is only revealed once you remove the faceplate.

The problem persists of I use that test socket.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

Well, in that case it's nothing to do with your wiring (assuming you've tried a different microfilter, ethernet cable and modem cable).

Thanks, Oliver. That is exactly what I thought. Hence I requested to talk to the manager.

Maybe this is all a misunderstanding, and the Indian TT CS guy thought I am still using the external master socket?!

Ok, so you have ruled out any internal wiring problems your side of the master socket, by using the test socket,
Do you have another router that you could use for testing , just so your current router, & it's power supply can be ruled out too ?
Also if you have them a different adsl cable (router to adsl filter ) and a new adsl filter, again for testing,
If the issue still persists then you have exhausted all the possible causes your end,
If known, can you ping the exchange equipment when no internet access, exchange equipment is the 1st hop after your router, to try and see where the packet loss is occuring,

If between your master socket and exchange it's BT openreach's responsibility to find and fix any faults, if after exchange to your isp's data center it's down to the isp, As for the remote tests that they have carried out , they are pretty much useless in a lot of situations, Looking at your line stats, it looks as if they have increased the downstream Target noise margin or their DLM has done it, this is giving you are really poor sync speed on the downstream , and obviously doing didly squat else , typical of that automated DLM or outsourced overseas support staff in a lame attempt to try and hide the problem

Edited by tommy45 (Tue 24-Jul-12 13:08:32)

In reply to a post by tommy45:

Do you have another router that you could use for testing , just so your current router, & it's power supply can be ruled out too ?
Also if you have them a different adsl cable (router to adsl filter ) and a new adsl filter, again for testing,

Unfortunately, I have no additional router or adsl filters. However, the router appears to behave very sensibly.

In reply to a post by tommy45:

If known, can you ping the exchange equipment when no internet access, exchange equipment is the 1st hop after your router, to try and see where the packet loss is occuring,

Good idea. I should be able to find the IP address of the first hop with a traceroute (I am using Linux). Will do this when I am at home tonight.

In reply to a post by tommy45:

If between your master socket and exchange it's BT openreach's responsibility to find and fix any faults, if after exchange to your isp's data center it's down to the isp,

Thanks for the info, very useful.

Would you know if the engineer that TT CS have booked for me to come around on Thursday would be from BT openreach? I am not quite sure what the guy will be able to do, and if the £50 are possibly wasted.

If the fault is found to be exchange side of NTE5 test socket by the Open Reach engineer then you will not be charged £50.

Actually I'm surprised TalkTalk didn't send you a replacement router, ethernet cable, adsl cable and filter for free, which at one time they seemed to do quite readily if a broadband fault was reported...

Most likely will be a BT openreach engineer, unless they are going to send one of their own so called boost engineers, who basically just do what you have done already and shouldn't be confused with BT openreach engineers, the possible £50 fee sounds suspect as openreach charge £130 + normally
They may bring a router with them , but that all the boost engineer can do check anything your side of the master socket
Did you not get a router from talktalk when you joined them ? If this packet loss is between your router and exchange, then i would certainly be trying another router adsl cable and filter , as although the router may appear to be working normally it could of developed a problem, can you not borrow a router for a short time ?

Edited by tommy45 (Tue 24-Jul-12 14:05:21)

In reply to a post by tommy45:

If known, can you ping the exchange equipment when no internet access, exchange equipment is the 1st hop after your router, to try and see where the packet loss is occuring,

I have asked my wife to check this for me. So the first hop is 78.146.64.1 and pinging this IP address from our router already gives packet loss.

So assuming everything within my property is working fine, this would indicate a problem between my house and the exchange. Correct?

In reply to a post by tommy45:

Did you not get a router from talktalk when you joined them ? If this packet loss is between your router and exchange, then i would certainly be trying another router adsl cable and filter , as although the router may appear to be working normally it could of developed a problem, can you not borrow a router for a short time ?

I joined TalkTalk right at the beginning, before they even offered broadband. So when they started broadband, I only got a USB modem, which never worked. Hence I bought the Netgear router. I still have this modem lying around somewhere, so I could give that a try.

In reply to a post by robby74:

In reply to a post by tommy45:

If known, can you ping the exchange equipment when no internet access, exchange equipment is the 1st hop after your router, to try and see where the packet loss is occuring,

I have asked my wife to check this for me. So the first hop is 78.146.64.1 and pinging this IP address from our router already gives packet loss.

So assuming everything within my property is working fine, this would indicate a problem between my house and the exchange. Correct?

Without at least trying another router /adsl cable and new filter, you are not able to confirm this, hence why i suggested using another router such as the one supplied by talktalk assuming they sent you one, if they problem is still the same then it's unlikely your equipment as you are able to demonstrate this

Packet loss can be caused by lots of different things , EMI from various devices such as plasma tv's fluorescent lighting ballasts poorly routed cheap cabling running too close in parallel with mains cables the list goes on , But finding the source can sometimes be only part of the battle to get it fixed , should the source of the problem not be in your home

Just seen your newer post, in that case you should be able to get one from talktalk F.O.C as they should of given you one ,as there LLU is ADSL2+ so that modem which i would guess is something like the speed touch st330 ,(suitable for upto 8mb) although it would probably work it may not work well, i would request that they send up a router as they didn't do when they should of done , try requesting this via the tt user forum, maybe get a quicker result

Edited by tommy45 (Tue 24-Jul-12 14:23:19)

@tommy45

Thanks again for all the info. I am in contact with a TT rep via their TT members forum, who has offered to send out an alternative router. I hope the router will arrive soon so that I can take the next steps.

My parents will be coming over for the Olympics this w/e. And not having internet at home was not part of the plan!!!

In reply to a post by robby74:

...I am in contact with a TT rep via their TT members forum, who has offered to send out an alternative router. I hope the router will arrive soon so that I can take the next steps.

Be sure to specify a 4 ethernet port router if needed - my cousin was sent a replacement router last year and it was only a single ethernet port router, although it did have wireless. If you are only using it for testing then, I guess, that would not be an issue...

Edit: my cousin did try his old TalkTalk supplied usb modem that he previously used with adsl1 but it wasn't must use for adsl2+ (full LLU)

Edited by 4M2 (Tue 24-Jul-12 15:24:46)

How many telephone sockets are there in the house?
If there are extra sockets is there wiring on the part of the master socket that you removed to access the "Test Socket"?
Also are all other sockets dead when the you are using the "Test Socket" Not all installers do a good job, and sometimes the wiring does not confirm to good practice.

Edited by deleted (Tue 24-Jul-12 15:23:22)

In reply to a post by OpenAccess:

How many telephone sockets are there in the house?
If there are extra sockets is there wiring on the part of the master socket that you removed to access the "Test Socket"?

There are two sockets. I did not remove any wiring, only took the master socket "male plug" out of the test socket, and put the adsl filter into the test socket.

In reply to a post by OpenAccess:

Also are all other sockets dead when the you are using the "Test Socket" Not all installers do a good job, and sometimes the wiring does not confirm to good practice.

I have never tested that, but I would assume the other sockets are dead. I can confirm this tonight.

However, please note that all has been working fine for years and years. I think it is highly unlikely that my internal wiring has suddenly gone dodgy.

In reply to a post by OpenAccess:

Also are all other sockets dead when the you are using the "Test Socket" Not all installers do a good job, and sometimes the wiring does not confirm to good practice.

That's a very good suggestion if one is unaware of how exactly the back of the NTE5, and hence the test socket, has been wired

However, please note that all has been working fine for years and years. I think it is highly unlikely that my internal wiring has suddenly gone dodgy.

But that applies to the telephone line, DSLAM etc as well!

Unlike previous suggestions I wouldnt expect packet loss to be caused by line problems etc - I would seriously worry about the Router and after that the exchange equipment.

If TT have arranged for an OR visit I don't thing they are going to find anything wrong which will generate a charge (to TT) which they may try to recover from you!

Have they warned about the possibility of being charged?

EDIT: Read the thread starter and TT have mentioned a charge of £50 . This is less than OpenReach would charge though.

Edited by greenglide (Tue 24-Jul-12 16:28:14)

In reply to a post by greenglide:

Unlike previous suggestions I wouldnt expect packet loss to be caused by line problems etc - I would seriously worry about the Router and after that the exchange equipment.

My gut feeling is that someone messed up something at the exchange on Sunday. Or that something happened to the line leading from my property to the exchange. But I may be proved wrong.

In reply to a post by greenglide:

Have they warned about the possibility of being charged?

They mentioned a charge of £50, which other people here have suggested could mean a TT engineer, rather than an OR one.

Have you tried pinging your default gateway (the router) just to make sure it's not your end?

In reply to a post by locutus:

Have you tried pinging your default gateway (the router) just to make sure it's not your end?

No, I have not. Will do so tonight, when I am at home. (NOTE: I won't be able to reply to all your helpful messages until tomorrow morning, when I will be back at work.)

However, I can obviously access the router via its http interface, looking at the connection stats, logs etc. So I doubt the problem is pinging the router. But again, I may be proved wrong.

i would run 4 concurrent ping tests:

ping [router ip address] -t

ping [your ip address] -t

ping [first hop] -t

ping www.bbc.net -t


make 4 tall windows with the bottoms in line and just see if the packet loss is consistent across all windows, or just bbc and 1st hop etc

Hi Robby,

If you are managing this issue via the TT Members Forum I would advise updating your thread there with any changes and testing you have conducted, just to ensure the OCE's are aware of this
Regards

Mark
TalkTalk Online Community Department

In reply to a post by TALKTALK_SUPPORT:

If you are managing this issue via the TT Members Forum I would advise updating your thread there with any changes and testing you have conducted, just to ensure the OCE's are aware of this

Thanks, Mark. Yes, I have. I am in contact there with an OCE_mark. That is not you, by any chance?

The thread over there is: Thread 853186

In reply to a post by OpenAccess:

Also are all other sockets dead when the you are using the "Test Socket" Not all installers do a good job, and sometimes the wiring does not confirm to good practice.

I did this test last night, and the other socket is indeed dead when I take the master socket out of the test socket.

In reply to a post by locutus:

Have you tried pinging your default gateway (the router) just to make sure it's not your end?

I did the following test last night:. The router gave me this information:

ADSL port: 78.156.55.48
Gateway IP address: 78.146.48.1
LAN port: 192.168.0.1

Now pinging 78.156.55.48 and 192.168.0.1 is fine, no packet loss.

But pinging 78.146.48.1 shows up packet loss.

What do you make of this?

So here an update on Wednesday morning. (Problem started Sunday afternoon.)

Thanks to a very helpful neighbour (Thanks Trevor!), I managed to test my connection with an alternative router (a Netgear DG834PN in this case), and with alternative ethernet cable, adsl cable and adsl filter.

The same problem occurred, again also with the test socket.

According to my limited knowledge, and on recalling that TT CS said that they can see no problem on their side of the line, this points to a problem with the phone line between my house and the exchange, or a problem at the exchange itself.

Maybe some other ISP changed something somewhere at the exchange on Sunday afternoon?

I am now awaiting the £50 engineer that is due to come tomorrow morning. I would hope I do not have the pay the £50 fee if he confirms that the problem is indeed outside of my house.

Many thanks for all your helpful comments again!

In reply to a post by Myth:

i would run 4 concurrent ping tests:

Thanks. See my post above for the results.

So by now you should have had your £50's worth of 'Cube' engineer, why did they organise this when from what you have said, it clearly isn't an issue in your house, and that's all these guys can test for you ??

The 50 sobs would be for a Talktalk 'cube' engineer.

Actually, and surprisingly, my internet works again as of 7pm tonight!

I still need to check with Mark from the TT member forum if he had anything to do with it.

Anyway, I managed to cancel the engineer's visit, which was scheduled for tomorrow morning. As I cancelled after 4pm on the day before the appointment, a charge of £24.99 would normally be due. But the guy on the phone very kindly said that this would be waived, given that the cancellation is not my fault etc.

Anyway, I am very happy to have my broadband up and running again.

It would be very interesting to find out what the cause of the problem was.

It would be very interesting to find out what the cause of the problem was.

Would be, wouldn't it. Your best bet would be via your TT contact, Mark.

packet loss on routers may just be some QOS or something coming into effect, as the router drops low priority traffic, so you need to ping further into the network or something like www.google.co.uk to prove there is a real issue.

In reply to a post by locutus:

packet loss on routers may just be some QOS or something coming into effect, as the router drops low priority traffic, so you need to ping further into the network or something like www.google.co.uk to prove there is a real issue.

Well, I wrote in my original post that I had pinged www.talktalk.co.uk, with the described results.

So what you are saying is that the packet loss I saw when pinging the Gateway IP was merely due to it being considered low priority traffic by the router?

I would rather think that as the Gateway IP itself was already part of a different subnet, the pinging went via some other TT server, which caused the packet loss.

But I am no expert on this, so I may be wrong. For example, I do not really know what the connection between the ADSL port IP and the Gateway IP is.

did u run a ping to google, talktalk or bbc etc concurrently with the gateway IP address to eliminate the QoS issue a previous poster described?

A router connects networks together by definition, so yes the gateway is on a different subnet to your pc, but is on the same subnet as the WAN side of your router.

I think the concurrent test would prove the issue is outside your jurisdiction if both pings fail at the same time, seeing as you've swap tested the router, cable and filter.

In reply to a post by Myth:

did u run a ping to google, talktalk or bbc etc concurrently with the gateway IP address to eliminate the QoS issue a previous poster described?

I did not run the concurrent test. However, the issue is resolved now, so I cannot repeat the test.

I get your point about the WAN, thanks.

Hi Robby,

I understand this is under investigation with the Members Forum (and yes theres only one OCE called mark so it would be me)

Please ensure your updating your thread on the TTMF with the info you ahve posted here to ensure we have full visibility of this (some sections are maanged by Multiple OCE, Braodband partcularly, so it may not be myself that next reaches your thread to reply, there is however only one OCE managing external sites so at present I am the only OCE aware of the above.)

Cheers

Mark
TalkTalk Online Community Department

In reply to a post by TALKTALK_SUPPORT:

I understand this is under investigation with the Members Forum (and yes theres only one OCE called mark so it would be me)

I have updated the TT member forum to say that the issue is resolved now. A different OCE has replied to that, so I assume that thread is considered closed over there.

However, I still have no idea what caused the network problems in the first place. Can you shed some light on this? I also do not know if my posting on the TT member forum instigated the repair work, or if this was done independently. Do you know?

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The 50 sobs would be for a Talktalk 'cube' engineer.

FYI and more correctly, "Qube". (As in http://qubegb.com/index.htm )

Hi Mark,

sadly the issue reappeared last night. I observed packet loss from about 5pm to at least 10pm. This morning the connection seems to be fine again. Can we try to get to the bottom of this?

I have updated the TT member forum thread with the appropriate details.

Cheers,
Robert

In reply to a post by Myth:

did u run a ping to google, talktalk or bbc etc concurrently with the gateway IP address to eliminate the QoS issue a previous poster described?

As the issue reappeared last night, I could do this concurrent test now. These ping runs with 200 packets each were all started within 2 seconds of each other. The overall results are:

--- www.l.google.com ping statistics ---
200 packets transmitted, 130 received, 35% packet loss, time 199505ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 30.368/33.412/37.272/2.703 ms

--- www.bbc.net.uk ping statistics ---
200 packets transmitted, 139 received, 30% packet loss, time 203548ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 19.881/20.618/21.661/0.395 ms

--- www.talktalk.co.uk ping statistics ---
200 packets transmitted, 145 received, 27% packet loss, time 213599ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 27.158/27.940/32.812/0.613 ms

--- 78.147.240.1 ping statistics ---
200 packets transmitted, 146 received, 27% packet loss, time 199595ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 16.628/17.512/18.279/0.368 ms

The data for my ADSL port at that time was

IP Address 78.147.243.223
Gateway IP Address 78.147.240.1

So the last ping result is for the port's gateway IP.

Can you extract something useful from that data?

i think u missed the point slightly, sorry

edit: re-reading.... yes you eliminated QoS within the gateway as the issue, but do the below as well:

I was saying do the test concurrently with the LAN ip (which we believe is 100% fine), the WAN IP (which is the other side of the router (your responsibility) which I think is 100% fine, the gateway (which is the first hop outside of your control) and any of the major websites.

Then at the moment u see packet loss, look along and you can see if all the places failed at that moment or just the bbc, or both bbc and gateway, or all 4 etc etc. I was not interested in averages, but showing that at the exact moment pings fail to the gateway, they also fail at bbc, but are OK on both sides of your router.

This would show there is an error (pings fail to websites) and that the error occurs outside of your sphere of responsibility (router is fine, gateway onwards fails). As you didnt ping anything that had 100% success (your IP address) at the same time all your experiment shows is that you have an issue, it doesn't narrow down who's responsibility it is as it stands

hope this makes sense

Edited by deleted (Fri 27-Jul-12 19:43:53)

Hi Myth,

the LAN IP and WAN IP would both have 0% packet loss.

These four ping commands send out 1 ping per second (independently), and as far as I could tell, there was no correlation between the times at which the various ping commands encountered a lost packet.

At the moment all seems to be working fine again, just keeping my fingers crossed!!!

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The 50 sobs would be for a Talktalk 'cube' engineer.

I just found this on the tt site BT engineer charges Or are they misleading customers

interesting there is no correlation. This could just mean the intermittant fault lasts a very short time each time, so would be lucky to affect both pings. It could also only be an issue on the return journey (the exit interface of the talktalk gateway malforming frames and sending them to you for instance).

However, I would say you've done enough to prove the error lies beyond your sphere of control, I just hope you get a technician with a brain who can see you've swap tested all you can and the issue remains.

In reply to a post by tommy45:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The 50 sobs would be for a Talktalk 'cube' engineer.

I just found this on the tt site BT engineer charges Or are they misleading customers

"A charge will also be made if your line needs to be upgraded to get an acceptable level of Broadband service"

This is a very troubling statement. As we all rent the line from BT and BTOpenreach are responsible for maintaining that line, what exactly are TT on about? What do they mean by upgraded? From damaged to working? Copper to fibre? And who has decided what is acceptable? TT, BT or the customer?

I have a longer line than you with 55dB attenuation (to your 45dB)

I get between 3 and 4mbps. You should get between 5 and 6mbit I would say

Your upload looks correct.

I was wondering if you noticed any router stats when it wasn't broken?

Interesting. At the moment (the connection is working fine), I get

Connection Speed 4520 kbps 972 kbps
Line Attenuation 49 db 13.5 db
Noise Margin 2 db 6 db

Would this indicate TT did something since my first post?

i dont think 2dB is enough SNR margin for a long line. Is this a typo? If not it could be a misreport by the router. If it is correct it could account for the packet loss....except I'm guessing you have no packet loss when it says 2dB lol.

So, following the thought that the 2dB is correct, this would mean the signal of some parts of your data stream will get drowned out by any noise on the line. Noise is kinda random, can be generated by neighbours doing weird things, is higher when it is dark.

Interlacing means some of these drop outs can be rectified without you knowing (apart from lower speeds) but if the corruption of the signal is too great then the packet can be lost.

However, your packet loss at 10dB SNR, 45bD atten. and 1300kbps speed suggests spurious, intermittent and loud noise on the line, or some kind of bad, corroded connection.

I would say i feel 80% confident in my thoughts here, I welcome other interpretations of robby's stats.

In reply to a post by Myth:

i dont think 2dB is enough SNR margin for a long line. Is this a typo? If not it could be a misreport by the router. If it is correct it could account for the packet loss....except I'm guessing you have no packet loss when it says 2dB lol.

Just to say that the margin went up to 4db soon after I posted, and is still on 4db now.

i'm just wondering if the 10dB you quoted as Downstream SNR was actually 1dB, as this would account for all the issues. At 1dB you would get significant packet loss and a low speed, at 2dB/4dB the signal would overcome the noise enough to be ok. A change of 3dB in noise levels is not uncommon, and the normal 6dB SNR that most routers try an achieve would mean an SNR of 3dB when the line was noisiest.

Edit: the test would be to ask for a 12dB SNR on ttmembers forums and see if the problem goes away, then drop to 9dB target and test again. I'm thinking a week of each.

I get the feeling you'd be happy with working 2mbit rather than unusable 4mbit, with the view to increasing to 4 gradually to find a sweetspot.

Edited by deleted (Sat 28-Jul-12 09:56:00)

In reply to a post by Myth:

i'm just wondering if the 10dB you quoted as Downstream SNR was actually 1dB

Netgears don't report in tenths.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Netgears don't report in tenths.

My DG834 v4 certainly does.

In reply to a post by Myth:

i'm just wondering if the 10dB you quoted as Downstream SNR was actually 1dB, as this would account for all the issues. At 1dB you would get significant packet loss and a low speed, at 2dB/4dB the signal would overcome the noise enough to be ok. A change of 3dB in noise levels is not uncommon, and the normal 6dB SNR that most routers try an achieve would mean an SNR of 3dB when the line was noisiest.

I am pretty sure it was 10db.

At the moment I have

Connection Speed 4474 kbps 994 kbps
Line Attenuation 48 db 13.5 db
Noise Margin 6 db 6 db

and all is well.

Edited by deleted (Sat 28-Jul-12 17:17:53)

A charge will also be made if your line needs to be upgraded to get an acceptable level of Broadband service

This is known as 'network enhancement'. The line passes a pair quality test, but the sync rate achieved can be (sometimes) raised by, say, swapping out an E-side on to a 'better' cable.

It would seem that Talk Talk choose to pass the cost of this, if done, to their customers.

Mis-leading, no. Just stating what they will/might do if they wish to recoup costs.

tommy was saying it is misleading to call it a BT engineer if it is a TT "cube" engineer, as you said £50 would be a cube engineer and the website said it charges £50 for a "BT engineer"

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

A charge will also be made if your line needs to be upgraded to get an acceptable level of Broadband service

This is known as 'network enhancement'. The line passes a pair quality test, but the sync rate achieved can be (sometimes) raised by, say, swapping out an E-side on to a 'better' cable.

It would seem that Talk Talk choose to pass the cost of this, if done, to their customers.

What is the E-side?

The problem arises if the line has been designated "unacceptable" by BT or TT yet it passed a quality test.

If however the "unacceptable" part is from the customer then I take your point.

Point taken.

E-side. The pair from the exchange to the cabinet.

It is common for there to be more than one cable from the exchange to the cabinet. Some have better capabilities then others for carrying an ADSL signal, due to pair make up, conductor size, etc.

thanks, was just reading and after deciding it wasn't the wire to the lower east side of new york, it was looking like between exchange and drop pole....but i guess drop poles are now cabinets.

@Myth

TT seem to be buying into your theory (at least the latest OCE looking at my thread over there is).

They have put me on a 12db SNR profile now, because they think a too low SNR could cause the problem. However, when I first noticed packet loss, the SNR was 10db.

Of course, rather than 4500kbps I now get 3400kbps. But at least my connection is still working fine.