Line deteriorating?

I have long suspected I have an intermittent HR fault on my line and things now seem to be getting worse
The problem exhibits itself mostly during rainy periods - it starts to rain and I lose sync
I had Be* check things their end and line monitoring for 24 hours showed no issues
BT voice engineer came out and checked everything and replaced the master socket as it was slightly damaged. As the problems are the same plugged into the test socket, I knew however that this wouldn't make any difference

Around August this year, things started getting worse. When first connected to Be*, my downstream attenuation was 38db. Last year, it started hanging around 37.5db, then around August dropped down to 37db and is now sitting at 36.5db. Downstream output power also used to be around 19db, but has gone to 17.5db.

I've been using a Netgear DG834GT for about 6 months to see if there was any difference and it also doesn't spontaneously restart like the Speedtouch 780WL after a large amount of FEC errors are generated. I got a slightly more stable connection at first, but things progressively worse. I have on average about 10 LOS errors a day. Connected at the test socket was just as bad, if not worse.
I normally use an extension socket. Also, in October I fitted an iPlate mostly for the sake of curiousity.

Since about August time also, my modulation keeps going to ADSL2 instead of ADSL2+. I've never had problems with the modulation dropping down to ADSL2 before this. I also only averaged 5 - 10 LOS a week even during the old, wet winter months (apart from during periods of heavy rain and storms)

Last night, I connected the BeBox (780WL) back up for troubleshooting and to be ready for Be* support. I also took the downstream SNR up to 9db. Reliabity matters more at the moment than speed for increased level of online gaming over the Xmas period.

Stats up until Iost sync earlier todayat 18:42 and lost Internet connection. After a restart, got Internet back, but was on ADSL2. Took 4 restarts of the Bebox to get back onto ADSL2+

Uptime: 0 days, 0:18:31
Modulation: G.992.5 Annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,325 / 7,709
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [KB/KB]: 18.00 / 69.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 18.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 18.5 / 36.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 7.0 / 8.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / �
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 20 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 5 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 141 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 19,140
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 124,331 / 647
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 1,332,180 / 591

As this has been going on for at least 3 months, I think I can rule out Xmas lights being the problem.
The router has been connected to the same extension socket for over a year, I'm using XF-1E filters and I've tried different filters. As mentioned above everything is just as bad at the test socket.

I'm on Highams Park exchange, E17 and they have been digging the roads up around here since June for Thames Water upgrade work, so it's possible this has had affect. They finished the work last week (for the time being at least) and things have gotten markedly worse

This is a a DMT graph after monitoring has been running for 8 hours
http://rapidshare.com/files/174667975/dmt20081218_1556.png.html

This is a DMT graph taken just now
http://rapidshare.com/files/174667978/dmt20081218_2119.png.html

Current stats
Uptime: 0 days, 2:26:27
Modulation: G.992.5 Annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,321 / 7,427
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 7.11 / 68.68
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 17.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 18.5 / 36.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 7.0 / 9.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / �
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 23 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 26,747
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 124,430 / 86
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 1,333,534 / 50


I'm away over the weekend, so am going to leave things until Sunday and if still bad will log with Be* support. At the moment I cannot get to the master socket to test from the test socket, but as it's just the same from there it really doesn't make a difference.

Just wondering in the meantime if anyone here has any thoughts

Thanks

Nicola

HR faults are not intermittent, its the symptoms an HR causes that can be intermittent. You mention that your attenuation is lowering, this is a good thing, but I suspect that its a red herring. What you need is for Be* to raise an LL5 task, and have the engineer do an end to end pair quality with a Hawk and its remote unit. If this finds nothing on the pair itself, then I don't know ....
The upstream error count looks high, have they tried a lift and shift on your circuit ?

Sorry, I did mean that the symptoms are intermittent and not the fault itself
It's extremely hard to get to Be* to get BT involved in anything - somewhat understandably since the cost to them is pretty high. Haven't hd a lift and shift but the line card has been changed

Things have gotten worse and I'm now barely able to get a ADSL2+ modulation. I can't be sure however that it isn't Xmas lights at the moment making things worse.
The house 3 doors away on the same side as me is akin to Blackpool illuminations and there are a couple of houses about 15 doors up on the other side of the street that are ground to roof with lights. There are a few others with subtle displays. Is there anyway to tell if Xmas lights are interfering without an SFI visit?

Be* allow you to tweak for reliability within their member centre, so I've gone for the reliability option setting upstream and downstream SNR to a target 9db. Has made very little difference however, although FEC error now lower, but I'd expect that

Current stats

Uptime: 0 days, 21:26:36
Modulation: G.992.3 Annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,213 / 7,043
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/GB]: 137.02 / 2.34
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 18.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 18.5 / 33.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 9.5 / 9.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / �
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 10 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 497,480
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 2,541 / 17
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 20,896 / 13

In my experience, Be are pretty useless at raising engineer visits. My chum moved to BT Broadband to get his line fault sorted after months of persevering with Be.

Can't you get your SNR margins boosted to give more stability? Do you need the extra sync speed?

The problems started when I was with BT Broadband on vanilla 2Mb
I managed ADSL2+ after a restart yesterday for about 27 hours under sync dropped about an hour ago and it's now back to ADSL2

In reply to:

---

Unfortunately, we are not able to log a SFI task with BT, since at the moment we are in a process of discussing logging an SFI task with them in general, not for your particular case.

---

That's a new one! I wonder which poor engineer is going to get an 'in general', task tomorrow.

Be* won't do anything as yet, as they want me to ring them so that they can run a couple of tests first
I know exactly what as I done it all before
I cannot say it wasn't the response I was expecting

Test run and as suspected - no fault found
However I had another update today to say they had detected a progressive loss of signal and could I try an alternative PSU or plugging the PSU into another power socket
I plugged into another power socket, but as I've been using a DG834T with a different power supply and seeing the same problems with that connected, it's unlikely to be the BeBox PSU at fault

Hi Guys
I too am in Blackpool and I have this exact same problem, I cannot get an adsl2+ line and BE have said they have done everything they can.
I am sure my problem stems from when an engineer was working on the greenbox at the corner of our road, my problems began then, the engineers found no fault on the line but detected a fault on BE equipment in the exchange, of which (so i am told) was changed, but this did not fix the fault another engineer was sent to do tests and this resulted in same as before no fault found.
BE of course now say there is nothing they can do as they cant fix a fault not found.
What could have happened since th enginneer was working in that box as I convinced the fault stems from then (there)

Uptime: 0 days, 3:30:11

DSL Type: G.992.3 annex A

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,287 / 7,471

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 15.5 / 27.5

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 6.5 / 6.5

Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): 0

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 8,016

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 16

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 2,439 / 15

Steve

Edited by Steveoha (Sun 26-Jul-09 12:34:32)

What is the status of your service now?
You apparently have a connection to the exchange, albeit not a great one, but no data transfer which suggests a problem with the equipment in the exchange or on Be/O2 network.
Sure, the line isnt giving a great connection, but if you have no service then there is a greater problem that isnt at the cabinet.

HI, No the lines not great, get drop outs, I used to be static, but i cant go static now as there was problems according to BE, couldnt connect to some sites ie eBay, paypal and i had to change my smtp to my other email addresses to bethere smtp address to be able to send mail.
Ive been with them for 19 months and now they say my line is not capable of adsl2+
also found this in router:
00:35:05 (since last boot) SNTP Unable to contact server: 82.132.141.225

00:29:20 (since last boot) SNTP Unable to contact server: 82.132.141.225

00:23:35 (since last boot) SNTP Unable to contact server: 82.132.141.225

00:21:10 (since last boot) UPnP action 'AddPortMapping' from ip=192.168.1.67 (Success)

00:21:10 (since last boot) UPnP action 'AddPortMapping' from ip=192.168.1.67 (Success)

00:21:10 (since last boot) UPnP action 'DeletePortMapping' from ip=192.168.1.67 (No such entry in array)

00:21:11 (since last boot) UPnP action 'DeletePortMapping' from ip=192.168.1.67 (No such entry in array)

00:17:50 (since last boot) SNTP Unable to contact server: 82.132.141.225

00:12:05 (since last boot) SNTP Unable to contact server: 82.132.141.225

00:06:20 (since last boot) SNTP Unable to contact server: 82.132.141.225

00:01:00 (since last boot) [CWMP: 0:00:59.710] waiting 97 seconds for random boot delay
which continues for 4 hours
steve

Edited by Steveoha (Sun 26-Jul-09 13:12:32)

Maybe better to start a new thread in the Be forum.

yeah maybe, might make BE sit up and listen
thanks
steve

Funny that my thread on a line issue specific to me should have been resurrected, as I have an update following BE arranging an "SFI" engineer. Engineer arrived and said he "was a broadband engineer and nothing to do with lines / cables"
Was raised by be as an LL5 task

Anyhow. he did a broadband sync test (on ADSL1 of course) - NFF - and if it wasn't for my insistence that would have been it. However, after some persuading he did a pair quality test - something I'm told he was supposed to do anyway for an LL5 task
Pair quality test came all OK and showed the capacity balance was over 99%. Engineer told me it would have be under 95% to investigate any further

After the engineer had left, feeling like I'm in some sort of parallel universe (was going to say something else here, but thought better of it ), I got out a ladder and had a look at the incoming feed where it comes in above the door.

Still running RouterStats Lite, I gave the cable coming from outside a gentle tug where it is joined to the internal cabling before the master socket with a BT80B. RSL clearly showed a substantial drop in SNR. Tried again, and this time loss on sync. Upon re-sync, I tried one more time and again the SNR dropped at least 5db.

The cabling before the master socket therefore appears to be part of the issue if not the source of the problem. The cable from outside looks very similar to speaker cable and looks to have almost certainly been in place for a fair while, certainly from before we bought the house. It look light grey in colour, but difficult to tell as there is not a lot of light. I've tried to take some pictures, but there isn't that much light and they didn't come out at all visible

BE are now investigating further and have are considering asking BT for a 2nd SFI visit

You should have pulled it a bit harder. Speaker wire is not CW1308 cable is it?

so it's "bell wire" type stuff that is ancient and untwisted ? the insulation of that can get porous over time and give problems in the rain.

Thanks Yarwell

Yes, that seems to be the case

Would need to be CW1308B for internal / external usage

>>over time and give problems in the rain.

It rusts. It's copper coated steel.

Now have a brand new "aerial" fitted outside
Dropwire was replaced today to the BT80B and suspect cabling has gone. Wasn't dodgy - just very old and done before broadband was a consideration. All kosher BT
Cable from the other side of BT80B going to the NTE5 is all internal and wasn't replaced, but the engineer said it looked OK

It hasn't rained yet though, so no chance to put it through it's paces
Seems a little better from looking at error count, but not much difference in terms of stats and DMT

Stats from Master socket ( haven't had chance to do test socket stats yet )

Uptime: 0 days, 8:47:28
Modulation: G.992.5 Annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,304 / 8,264
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 188.81 / 544.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 19.0 / 37.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 6.0 / 6.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / µ
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 99 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 58,359
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 7,422 / 124
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 5,956 / 54

DMT before
http://tinypic.com/r/33yji1i/3

DMT after
http://tinypic.com/r/vq2pv7/3

Is there any chance that it's the aerial socket flush to the left of the phone socket causing interference? It is a powered aerial, however nothing is plugged in where the router is connected at master or when I'm using the extension socket directly underneath downstairs. Ferrite rings and the like make little difference anyhow.

Now just waiting for it to rain

Why have you got the BT80B? Is that to solve an interference problem?

You should try without it.

Both questions I can't answer. It's always been like that.
Removing it would be illegal

Does a BT80B always have RF suppression? Says BT80B on the outside, but haven't looked at the circuit board to confirm it is

If it is causing the low sync, then I realise that Openreach mostly won't think it's making a difference since the equipment they test with is only capable of ADSL1

Is this it? http://www.bttorj45.com/bt80brf3.html

It appears to be simple to bypass

Your line looks filtered given the DMT graph. It would be interesting to see a graph without the filter.

Edited by deleted (Tue 11-Aug-09 12:58:17)

Just the casing of a BT80B hiding the cable join

http://i32.tinypic.com/b7fh52.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/21l0vpw.jpg

So no RF filtering after all

Pity. That DMT graph looks bad. Does Routerstats reveal any noise bursts?

Oh, and have you tried a different router?