To give you some background the TT line was here when i moved in around 7 years, that line had problems when getting an incoming call it it took OR 10+ visits 2 lift and shifts and over a year before it was fixed, i had the IDnet line installed as a backup during that time and at one point OR have swiapped those lines over because now the IDnet number corresponds with the TT box.

A few weeks ago i ordered a line with BT business with the view of getting a fresh line and then getting one of the other lines disconnected if i could pinpoint which one was causing the problems. Since the BT line was installed i have realised that when one line is unplugged/plugged it causes the other lines to drop out also, i did not realise that before and it now explains why the old 2 lines were dropping out at the same time.

From the information i have given are you 100% certain the problem is with OR and nothing on my side, i cant see how it can be anything my end as the 3 routers are plugged into the test socket and i have no phones connected.

I guess i have a few options

1/ As you suggest get in contact with all 3 ISP's and somehow get them to work together.

2/ Call BT business and get them to send OR as they have to come out within 24 hours but are they allowed to look at the other lines? with the other 2 lines disconnected it should solve the problem of any crosstalk?

3/ Disconnect TT and IDnet as they are out of contract and hope the BT line is stable

with the other 2 lines disconnected it should solve the problem of any crosstalk?

a split pair is going to perform badly in any case, it won't get the crosstalk but will be much slower than it should be.

From memory the IDnet line was quite a bit faster sync speed than the others when on its own ? if so it might be OK and the other two have their pairs mixed up.

Go down option 2 ... Call BT support and tell them about the problem - the Scots tend to understand English but do not mention the intention to get rid of the TT and IDNet lines. You need to get the support tech to escalate it to his Coach - not quite second line but experienced and has move flexibility. Hopefully they will understand about split pairs and cross talk plus the need for OR to attend. It will then be down to your powers of persuasion to get OR to look at all three although checking for split pairs should be routine in a case like this.

Or, do as above but leave fault open saying you will call when you know your availability. Get IDNet or TT to book a BT Tech visit and then call BT Tech support again and arrange the visit for the same day - at least then you have a chance of making the Tech look at both

i have went for option 2 and got an engineer coming on thursday, i must say BT are much better over the phone as TT it has been so frustrating dealing with TT.

Cheeky [censored] tho BT will charge you £220 if the fault is from inside the house where TT were only £50, that is a massive difference, what do OR actually charge them?

what is the chance of this being a fault my end, it has got to be 0% right if it is happening over multiple lines when i have no internal wiring or phones connected and all routers are into the test socket?

It should be easier this time to show the engineer what the problem is as i can just disconnect/connect one of the other lines to get the BT connection to drop. What else do i need to be doing, ask him to check for split pairs on all lines, anything else?

what is the chance of this being a fault my end, it has got to be 0% right if it is happening over multiple lines when i have no internal wiring or phones connected and all routers are into the test socket?

None.

It should be easier this time to show the engineer what the problem is as i can just disconnect/connect one of the other lines to get the BT connection to drop. What else do i need to be doing, ask him to check for split pairs on all lines, anything else?

Split pairs are, sadly, very hard to detect in the real world. The only thing to look for on the PQ (pair quality) test would be low AC balance, the pairs ability to 'deflect' external signals.
Would be interesting to see the other end of the 5 pair cable feeding in, since those at your end (as pictured) have been split right back to the cable butt.
By their nature, these smaller cables tend to have less sheathing removed when terminating, you then pull the colours, and it's associated A leg comes away with it, on short lengths however, there isn't enough twist in the exposed pairs for this to happen successfully.
Hence the white A leg of pair 1 (blue/white pair) ends up being wound around the orange of pair 2, whilst the white is around the blue of the first pair.
This is basically not too much of an issue over short lengths, at least for voice. However it can play merry hell if both the pairs are carrying ADSL.
The difficulty the SFI will have, is that they can only test the sync on one line at any one time whilst in the field. having only tester.
Just a suggestion, but to rule out that it isn't the 5 pair causing the issue, get the SFI to push the TT line up on one of the two spares, the browns or the slates, toning from the external joint to ensure it IS a straight pair. Then reconnect all three lines to see if this has sorted it.

Can't remember without looking back through it all, did you rule out that it wasn't the power supply for one of the routers causing the issue ?

Not in the vicinity of Reading by any chance ?

Zarjaz has said most, but three points to remember.

Don't tell the BT Tech his job - make some suggestions (from Z's post) in conversation when he arrives and show him a faulty set-up.
Don't hover over his shoulder - wander away and just ask occasionally if he has found anything.
As he may be there some time make sure you offer tea, coffee, biscuits &c.

Would be interesting to see the other end of the 5 pair cable feeding in, since those at your end (as pictured) have been split right back to the cable butt.

Yes i guess the fact OR have looked at my lines umteen times will explain it, i guess one of the engineers pulled them right back to the butt at one stage.

This is basically not too much of an issue over short lengths, at least for voice. However it can play merry hell if both the pairs are carrying ADSL.

I cant remember the exact distance but the last engineer said it was a very long way to the cabinet and when that cabinet got fibre the speeds wouldn't be relatively poor due to the distance.

The difficulty the SFI will have, is that they can only test the sync on one line at any one time whilst in the field. having only tester.
Just a suggestion, but to rule out that it isn't the 5 pair causing the issue, get the SFI to push the TT line up on one of the two spares, the browns or the slates, toning from the external joint to ensure it IS a straight pair. Then reconnect all three lines to see if this has sorted it.

I will try and see what he says

Can't remember without looking back through it all, did you rule out that it wasn't the power supply for one of the routers causing the issue ?

I dont think we did unless you can see it from the line stats?
Later i will test agaiin with all the combinations of 2 lines

BT TT
BT IDnet
TT IDnet

That should rule out any one particular router or power supply.

Not in the vicinity of Reading by any chance ?

unfortunately not, in the Scottish borders

Zarjaz has said most, but three points to remember.

Don't tell the BT Tech his job - make some suggestions (from Z's post) in conversation when he arrives and show him a faulty set-up.
Don't hover over his shoulder - wander away and just ask occasionally if he has found anything.
As he may be there some time make sure you offer tea, coffee, biscuits &c.

thanks for the advice, will see what happens, at least BT business seem more helpful and i have the same person phoning me back to see if it is fixed on Saturday so i dont have to explain everything all over again!

I cant remember the exact distance but the last engineer said it was a very long way to the cabinet and when that cabinet got fibre the speeds wouldn't be relatively poor due to the distance.

Not quite what I meant, it won't be a 5 pair from you all the way back to the cab.

That should rule out any one particular router or power supply.

Cool.

unfortunately not, in the Scottish borders

Won't be me then !

Good luck.

i have uploaded 2 new pictures today showing my experiments disconnecting/connecting with 2 routers and 3 routers powered up.

Interesting the TT is not dropping today when in fact TT used to take the longest to sync up in the past, maybe the change to g.dmt has help there?