Zen - nuisance silent calls

For my company I organise the broadband service for our remote users and the company picks up the tab.

Now with one such installation we have a problem with silent calls that come in around midnight almost ever night. Having tried every option thrown at us by Zen, none of which worked, decided to have the number changed specifying that the number had to be ex-directory and not given to directory enquiry services.

On the very day the number was changed, and even before a select few were given the "new" number, a further nuisance silent call came in. Zen seemed to be entirely baffled by this turn of events and have gone away to scratch their heads.

This is all very well but another disturbed night is on the horizon. Anyone with any ideas of how to crack this problem?

Can Zen not trace the number for you?

I haven't read this (not enough time) but there may be something in there as to who you can complain to to escalate this. Automated dialers are often the cause of nuisance calls and are illegal (assuming it is from the UK).

Also, it could be there is actually a line fault somewhere and that it isn't actually a real call (not sure of how this would happen but seems too much coincidence that it happened on a brand new number - that to me suggests physical line issue rather than nuisance call).

In reply to a post by ian72:

Also, it could be there is actually a line fault somewhere and that it isn't actually a real call (not sure of how this would happen but seems too much coincidence that it happened on a brand new number - that to me suggests physical line issue rather than nuisance call).

Exactly the same happened to me after the new installation of a Sky box..............

In reply to a post by ian72:

Can Zen not trace the number for you?

I haven't read this (not enough time) but there may be something in there as to who you can complain to to escalate this. Automated dialers are often the cause of nuisance calls and are illegal (assuming it is from the UK).

Also, it could be there is actually a line fault somewhere and that it isn't actually a real call (not sure of how this would happen but seems too much coincidence that it happened on a brand new number - that to me suggests physical line issue rather than nuisance call).

Absolutely no information given on 1471 following the incoming call.

To me everything seems to point a physical line fault and with Zen on the case I have [misguided/] faith that they will get to the bottom of this issue. Well I will at least give them a reasonable amount of time to come up with a plan of action.

Have you tried changing your microfilter?

Microfilter contained within the faceplate.

Simple - Get a Truecall box. I swear by mine, it even blocks International withheld numbers that the B.T. paid for service cannot.
http://www.truecall.co.uk/home.aspx

It may not be a phone call.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

For my company I organise the broadband service for our remote users and the company picks up the tab.

Now with one such installation we have a problem with silent calls that come in around midnight almost ever night. Having tried every option thrown at us by Zen, none of which worked, decided to have the number changed specifying that the number had to be ex-directory and not given to directory enquiry services.

On the very day the number was changed, and even before a select few were given the "new" number, a further nuisance silent call came in. Zen seemed to be entirely baffled by this turn of events and have gone away to scratch their heads.

This is all very well but another disturbed night is on the horizon. Anyone with any ideas of how to crack this problem?

FWiW, you are not alone in experiencing phantom telephone calls. The Fritz!Box 7390 modem/router suffered from this problem up until about a year ago. The manufacturer's response was as follows:

Thank you very much for the enquiry you submitted to AVM Support.

Ghost calls and DSL disconnects parallel to incoming telephone calls occur
due to electrical impulses. The latter mostly is caused by a wrong cabling
with an analog landline.

Verify that only the DSL splitter is attached to the main telephone socket
and that no other terminal devices (e.g. telephone, fax machines etc.) and
no other telephone sockets (e.g. via extension leads) are connected to the
main socket. Connect any terminal devices to the extensions of the
FRITZ!Box.

The problem disappeared after I double-filtered the telephone line. I replaced the 7390 with a 7490 about 6 months ago and it has standard telephone filtering and there haven't been any issues. I am with ZEN both for BB and phone.

FWIW, the 7490 allows unknown and withheld calls to be diverted to an answerphone. The ring doesn't ring so late night calls are not an issue. The Fritz!Box also sends me an e-mail transcript of all answerphone messages for me to review as and when.

Try a new faceplate. I agree with others that it is not a genuine phone call. (Do you have a Sky box connected in your house?)

Edited by deleted (Tue 02-Sep-14 16:50:26)

True, but the Truecall box will block all but known and allowed numbers.

Incoming calls yes, but outgoing calls on bad internal wiring?

Surely anything making outgoing calls could be shutdown, unless it's something like a smart meter. Even a Sky box ban be stopped from phoning home. Also, I cannot quite get my head around an outgoing call making the phone ring, possibly you could elaborate.

Double filter.

I mentioned those earlier. Well known for interference and phoning home.

In reply to a post by professor973:

Surely anything making outgoing calls could be shutdown, unless it's something like a smart meter. Even a Sky box ban be stopped from phoning home. Also, I cannot quite get my head around an outgoing call making the phone ring, possibly you could elaborate.

In reply to a post by professor973:

I mentioned those earlier. Well known for interference and phoning home.

I'm confused?? (Also, Smart meters use mobile telephony, SIM cards)

Edited by deleted (Tue 02-Sep-14 18:13:40)

Nothing confusing about a Sky box.

The filter just removes broadband frequencies from the phone circuit in either direction.

If the filter has failed it is possible that BT nightly line checks are at fault. So I googled them.

See this 2011 BT thread. I've only read as far as Message 10 of 36.

Edit - Now I've read the whole BT thread. To me most of it looks highly relevant.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 03-Sep-14 00:33:36)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The filter just removes broadband frequencies from the phone circuit in either direction.

If the filter has failed it is possible that BT nightly line checks are at fault. So I googled them.

See this 2011 BT thread. I've only read as far as Message 10 of 36.

Edit - Now I've read the whole BT thread. To me most of it looks highly relevant.

Yes I have read the entire thread which describes an issue very similar to our experiences. Frustratingly it doesn't give details of what "Paddy" did that solved the problem for them.

I do believe it is indeed an entirely internal wiring problem leading up to the master socket. When the phone and FTTC service was provided, Kelly's turned up to do the business and fitted a new master socket next to the computer running fixed internal wiring from the in-situ master socket.

Just recently I plugged a phone into this unused master socket only to find that there was a phone service from that location. So what we have are two master sockets on the exchange line. I've asked Zen to decommission this master socket but the refuse to do so saying we have to contact Openreach directly to have that work done for which there would be a charge. Zen helpfully provided the appropriate forms for me to complete.

With this setup, it does seem highly likely that those nightly test calls are triggering the two rings on the phone that occur every night, usually at 23.50. Dialling 1471 sometimes gives details of a caller who rang earlier in the day but more often than not just silence.

Why Zen are so reluctant to despatch an Openreach engineer to the property is beyond my comprehension, as is the need to pay for the work, instead tying up their support staff and my time to carry out numerous test that are probably taking us down a cul-de-sac. They do any number of line tests which "prove" that the line is healthy and yet interesting enough those tests do not interrupt the voice or broadband service even for a few seconds.

Of course suggestions are made that we have a faulty router and/or phone and that both need to be changed and that only a corded phone should be used. Using the equipment elsewhere does not replicate these ghost calls. As far as I am concerned if the filter in the master socket is duff then it is up Openreach to come and replace it. It was fitted at the start of the service on 7 JAN 14.

Now I do feel better in providing this information and I thank Robert for the link, but of course it gets us nowhere in actually solving the issue. What do readers feel I should do next?

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

When the phone and FTTC service was provided, Kelly's turned up to do the business and fitted a new master socket next to the computer running fixed internal wiring from the in-situ master socket.

I'm confused about this. Does "internal" wiring mean "existing wiring" from the master to an extension.

IIRC whet they did was get a DECT phone with a number of handsets and stopped using the extension wiring.

Re what Kelly's did, have you explained that to Zen?

Is the new socket an NTE5, and where is the VDSL2 filter - at the old or new socket? It is possible for this (observed) wiring to be valid - which isn't to say that in this case it is.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

IIRC whet they did was get a DECT phone with a number of handsets and stopped using the extension wiring.

Re what Kelly's did, have you explained that to Zen?

Is the new socket an NTE5, and where is the VDSL2 filter - at the old or new socket? It is possible for this (observed) wiring to be valid - which isn't to say that in this case it is.

Thank you for your interest in this issue. To answer your questions in the order posed;

There never has been any extension wiring. A master and slave wireless phone is currently used from the Gigaset range.

Yes I did but they said that as the installation was carried out in January they could not go back to Kelly's to lodge a complaint about the installation.

Yes it is, the marking on the faceplate says "openreach MK2" and has a socket for the router to be connected to and below it a normal phone socket. The original socket in the hallway is unfiltered with no devices connected. The Openreach modem is connected to the new filtered faceplate in the living room. Again there are no fixed extensions from this faceplate. I would say that by observation it must be unusual to have two master sockets on the same exchange line with both "live".

From the Openreach modem, a CAT5 cable is connected to the router's WAN socket. There is nothing connected to the router's ADSL socket. When loop through was connected, the voice service is connected to the router's line socket with the wireless base unit connected to Line 1. All services are configured to use WAN2. The desired setup works just fine but for the ghost calls.

Now moving on. Last night the Ghost call came in unusually at 03:30, same thing two rings only. The call was unanswered because a genuine call would ring for longer. There's never been any useful information gleaned from 1471 so ignored doing that. This is getting beyond a joke while Zen seems to be wishing the issue will resolve itself with no intervention.

Zen have asked us not to loop through the router [2830vn], which we use for VoIP, and so the Gigaset base unit is now currently connected directly to the new master socket. I should state that the Zen VoIP service is outgoing only so I don't see that removing the loop through is at all relevant to the ghost calls. In any case, for the time being, the VoIP service is no longer configured in the router.

On the Ofcom front their documentation clearly states that issues of this kind can only be resolved by the telephone provider. So moaning to them is not an option.

Sounds like Kelly's have just created an extension from the NTE5 (?) unfiltered faceplate in the hall to the socket in the living room which has an "openreach MK2" filtered faceplate for both voice and vdsl. Normally one would expect an interstitial filtered faceplate to be fitted to the NTE5 in the hall using a "data extension kit" with a dedicated vdsl unfiltered socket in the living room for the modem only.

Leaving an unfiltered socket in the hall to which a device can be connected, without the "data extension" disconnected, is really bad practice. A blank faceplate to which no device can be connected would be OK and that would, if removed, still allow access to the test socket if indeed the socket in the hall is actually a NTE5?

Just as a test could you try putting your phone into the "old" master socket at night and see/hear if you get the same problem? This could definitely narrow the problem.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Sounds like Kelly's have just created an extension from the NTE5 (?) unfiltered faceplate in the hall to the socket in the living room which has an "openreach MK2" filtered faceplate for both voice and vdsl. Normally one would expect an interstitial filtered faceplate to be fitted to the NTE5 in the hall using a "data extension kit" with a dedicated vdsl unfiltered socket in the living room for the modem only.

Leaving an unfiltered socket in the hall to which a device can be connected, without the "data extension" disconnected, is really bad practice. A blank faceplate to which no device can be connected would be OK and that would, if removed, still allow access to the test socket if indeed the socket in the hall is actually a NTE5?

Time to do some DIY here by removing the old master socket entirely and using a couple of jelly clamps to extend the exchange line to the new master socket. It is all very well not being allowed to interfere with BT plant, but if I can't get anyone to visit to sort it out without paying out a Kings ransom and continuing to lose sleep every night, it is worth a punt to see if it solves the problem.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Time to do some DIY here by removing the old master socket entirely and using a couple of jelly clamps to extend the exchange line to the new master socket. It is all very well not being allowed to interfere with BT plant, but if I can't get anyone to visit to sort it out without paying out a Kings ransom and continuing to lose sleep every night, it is worth a punt to see if it solves the problem.

So are you saying that Kelly's fitted a NTE5 together with a filtered faceplate in the living room and this was connected to the back of the "master" unfiltered faceplate in the hall via an extension cable of some sort? What is this "master" in the hall: another NTE5?

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Time to do some DIY here by removing the old master socket entirely and using a couple of jelly clamps to extend the exchange line to the new master socket. It is all very well not being allowed to interfere with BT plant, but if I can't get anyone to visit to sort it out without paying out a Kings ransom and continuing to lose sleep every night, it is worth a punt to see if it solves the problem.

There goes any chance of compensation, from OR to Zen to you.............Trying the phone in the old socket overnight could prove it is a mis-wiring job.

Edited by deleted (Wed 03-Sep-14 16:44:09)

In reply to a post by Stevenage_Neil:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Time to do some DIY here by removing the old master socket entirely and using a couple of jelly clamps to extend the exchange line to the new master socket. It is all very well not being allowed to interfere with BT plant, but if I can't get anyone to visit to sort it out without paying out a Kings ransom and continuing to lose sleep every night, it is worth a punt to see if it solves the problem.

There goes any chance of compensation, from OR to Zen to you.............Trying the phone in the old socket overnight could prove it is a mis-wiring job.

I agree, initially from the NTE5 test socket in the hall using a corded phone if possible

In reply to a post by Stevenage_Neil:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Time to do some DIY here by removing the old master socket entirely and using a couple of jelly clamps to extend the exchange line to the new master socket. It is all very well not being allowed to interfere with BT plant, but if I can't get anyone to visit to sort it out without paying out a Kings ransom and continuing to lose sleep every night, it is worth a punt to see if it solves the problem.

There goes any chance of compensation, from OR to Zen to you.............Trying the phone in the old socket overnight could prove it is a mis-wiring job.

Good point made - will not be doing any DIY then.

To answer other questions posed, the master socket in the hallway is just the usual master socket with a split lower half which if taken off [as allowed] reveals no extension wiring attached.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

To answer other questions posed, the master socket in the hallway is just the usual master socket with a split lower half which if taken off [as allowed] reveals no extension wiring attached.

Which doesn't make sense. Where is the "new" master getting it's feed from? You said in a previous post that the new wiring to the "new" master is internal. Can you not trace it back to where it is picking it's feed from?

In reply to a post by Stevenage_Neil:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

To answer other questions posed, the master socket in the hallway is just the usual master socket with a split lower half which if taken off [as allowed] reveals no extension wiring attached.

Which doesn't make sense. Where is the "new" master getting it's feed from? You said in a previous post that the new wiring to the "new" master is internal. Can you not trace it back to where it is picking it's feed from?

Yep actually saw the cable run being made which is white circular cabling off the roll from his van which starts it's journey from the old standard master socket to the new filtered master socket. As I said previously, I though he was just extending the exchange wires behind a decommissioned master socket, left behind because of a lack of blanking plate. It is only recently that I discovered there continued to be a voice service from this socket.

Zen have said today that if I connected a corded phone to the [new] master socket and a ghost call happens overnight in the next three nights, then they will organise on Monday for an Openreach engineer to visit.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

To answer other questions posed, the master socket in the hallway is just the usual master socket with a split lower half which if taken off [as allowed] reveals no extension wiring attached.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Yep actually saw the cable run being made which is white circular cabling off the roll from his van which starts it's journey from the old standard master socket

The word "previous" in the first quote would have saved a lot of time........(Your new socket is an extension from the old socket)

Edited by deleted (Wed 03-Sep-14 18:01:49)

If 1471 does not record an incoming call, it aint an incoming call.

I would ask zen to run a copper line test and see if that triggers the rings. It may be that the overnight line testing routines are causing the problem. Some cordless phones don't like it.

If that don't work check insulation between terminal 2 and 3 on internal wiring as this will cause spontanious ringing.

If that don't work I would be looking to eliminate plugged in kit.

Currently (?) no extensions from the faceplate on the master socket in the hall suggests that Kelly's connected the white extension cable to the back of the master directly to the drop wires but the test socket in that master is still live, hence a phone still works from it's unfiltered faceplate!

If that is the case then you definitely need Openreach to sort it out.

Is there a pair from the back of the new NTE5A faceplate backwired to the old NTE5, with the incoming cable from outside being connected to the new extension cable instead of the back of the NTE5 rear assembly? Then the same-coloured two wires as on the new NTE5A connected to the back of the old rear assembly?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Is there a pair from the back of the new NTE5A faceplate backwired to the old NTE5, with the incoming cable from outside being connected to the new extension cable instead of the back of the NTE5 rear assembly? Then the same-coloured two wires as on the new NTE5A connected to the back of the old rear assembly?

That would be filtered voice only available from the old NTE5, in the hall, via that backwiring arrangement?

How is backwiring going to cause spontaneous ringing?

Kellys could have sent their worst cowboy around but he ain't going to have messed up an install to cause the symptoms the OP is describing.

This will be the line tester routines or plugged in kit or plugged in kit not liking the line tester routines.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

That would be filtered voice only available from the old NTE5, in the hall, via that backwiring arrangement?

Yes. As one would expect from all engineer installations of FTTC.

There is scope for a cockup in the Kelly's installation, and cockups by them are what we often see.

I described a valid backwiring installation, asking if that is what has been done .

If that isn't what he has done, giving rise to an unfiltered phone feed somewhere, we could get the effect reported.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

That would be filtered voice only available from the old NTE5, in the hall, via that backwiring arrangement?

Yes. As one would expect from all engineer installations of FTTC.

I must admit that I hadn't considered the possibility of backwiring and from your description I can see how filtered voice would be available at the old NTE5

However I think the OP stated that there are no extensions from the filtered faceplate on the new NTE5 in the living room...

Update on the morning of 4 September. With the router disconnected and only a corded phone plugged into the filtered face plate, a ghost call of just two rings occurred at 23:51

Phone in use was brand new basic instrument from Sainsbury's costing £9.99 to satisfy a required test by Zen. Apart from month's of disturbed sleep and £20 cost to change the number and now another £10 for a phone not really needed, there's not a lot more I can say without the entry being censored.

Waiting for Zen's help desk to wake up to report this development. Aren't the lucky to have a good nights sleep whereas their customer is disturbed night after night.

Hmm, wondering if this is sounding more like a fault in the voice equipment in the exchange. Maybe there is an error on the port that is creating the ghost call.

EDIT: Thinking of ghost calls, maybe you have a poltergeist?


NB: For avoidance of doubt that edit is a joke

Edited by ian72 (Thu 04-Sep-14 08:43:43)

The point is the filter in the faceplate may be duff. You need a dangly filter into the test socket.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

There is scope for a cockup in the Kelly's installation, and cockups by them are what we often see.

I described a valid backwiring installation, asking if that is what has been done .

If that isn't what he has done, giving rise to an unfiltered phone feed somewhere, we could get the effect reported.

As far as I can make out, a phone will only ring if it receives AC voltage across the pair or it receives battery contact on terminal three.

Tens of thousands of customer reported faults visited, I have never found otherwise. I am always happy to learn and would be grateful for you to explain how an unfiltered phone feed can cause spontaneous ringing.

My money is on overnight testing routines causing this problem as it only happens at night and the tester reverses polarity rapidly during insulation tests plus I have seen this before.