Why are you defining the service that Virgin offer as 'leased line'?

How Virgin supply what they sell is of no interest whatsoever to the vast majority of their customers, including me.

The peanuts comment is a bit rich. Even in the States ISPs charge less than here. In most of Europe (if not all) connections are faster and cheaper.

120mb download with a tiny fraction upload from Virgin costs more than a server on a Dutch farm with 1GB up and down....

Accusing people of being uneducated, cheapskates and trying to make out they want something for nothing only works if they don't know their facts.

You may wonder about my knowledge of retail LAW. It comes from running retail businesses for a few decades. I note you have also had problems with another poster who lists their occupation as retail manager.

Basically you are being contradicted by people who have some knowledge of trading law in the UK.

Please try to understand that the logistical problems of Virgin have nothing whatsoever to do with their contracts to supply the services they advertise. If they can't supply they shouldn't advertise and sell them.

I really do not comprehend why when you have had things explained to you patiently you don't check what you are being told. The HM Gov site has numerous pages on Trading Law.

The reason people complain about Virgin is that they seem to be getting away with a lot of things that smaller, less technical, suppliers wouldn't be allowed to, They waffle about 'contention' and similar twaddle and blind the authorities with pseudo-science.

The simple fact is that they are selling something that they know they cannot supply.

BTW - The price charged is not relevant.

Be Happy,

Jon

Why are you defining the service that Virgin offer as 'leased line'?

Im not actually the opposite, I think some users are getting the two services mixed up.

How Virgin supply what they sell is of no interest whatsoever to the vast majority of their customers, including me.

99% of people I know with Virgin is happy with their service and the speed they receive. Most people when their service is up and working don't feel the need to post telling everyone about this.

The peanuts comment is a bit rich. Even in the States ISPs charge less than here. In most of Europe (if not all) connections are faster and cheaper.

Evidence please....

120mb download with a tiny fraction upload from Virgin costs more than a server on a Dutch farm with 1GB up and down....

Unlimited dedicated bandwidth 1gig up and down - wow! Sounds very unlikely...

You may wonder about my knowledge of retail LAW. It comes from running retail businesses for a few decades. I note you have also had problems with another poster who lists their occupation as retail manager.

Basically you are being contradicted by people who have some knowledge of trading law in the UK.

Please try to understand that the logistical problems of Virgin have nothing whatsoever to do with their contracts to supply the services they advertise. If they can't supply they shouldn't advertise and sell them.

I really do not comprehend why when you have had things explained to you patiently you don't check what you are being told. The HM Gov site has numerous pages on Trading Law.

I know about the basics of trading, contract and retail law but in my opinion you are talking apples and oranges. I have also read into certain aspects of the law and don't feel Virgin are breaking any laws or even coming close to bending them.

Are you trying to say I don't like people who work in retail? What utter rubbish I have not even read your profile. Why do people take debating so personal.

I receive the service advertised and it actually exceeds my expectations.

If you feel Virgin are in breach of the contract you have with them please post the appropriate points of claim, leave them, take them to court and see what a judge thinks.

The reason people complain about Virgin is that they seem to be getting away with a lot of things that smaller, less technical, suppliers wouldn't be allowed to, They waffle about 'contention' and similar twaddle and blind the authorities with pseudo-science.

What a poor comparison because a small ISP would not be able to do the level of advertising virgin can. Also please support your claim with some evidence... You are on the borderline of claiming some sort of foul play here....

The simple fact is that they are selling something that they know they cannot supply.

BTW - The price charged is not relevant.

The simple fact is that the price is relevant because if I wanted 100mbit of dedicated unlimited bandwidth id go and get the "Big red internet" package installed from Virgin not have a cable modem on their DOCSIS3 network.

You demand evidence and yet provide none - isn't that from 'Board tricks 101' circa 1995?

I wrote quite clearly that I do not get what I pay for. You seem to doubt that? Do you think I am lying?

I compared Virgin with a Duch origin server farm (incidentally including 3tb storage) and you imply again that I am a liar?

The problem with this type of bad service from people like Virgin is that there are always people who will defend their favorite company which is often the one they work for. NTL were famed for this as I am pretty sure from your comments that you are old enough to remember.

If you can try to take in what I am writing please try to understand that all I and anyone else wants from Virgin is what they advertise - UNLIMITED access. If people pay for it they are entitled to it.

Perhaps you can explain why Virgin should be allowed to advertise something as unlimited and then limit it.

Contention, capping and throttling are all forms of limiting an unlimited service. If that wasn't enough they have a 'Fair use Policy'.

It's all really about being honest. It's not about all the technical twaddle.

Be Happy,

Jon

P.S. May one ask that if you are so sure 99% of Virgin customers are happy, why do you feel so driven to attack those who complain?

The USA and Canada charge quite high prices for internet access - here's an example of offerrings from Bell Canada which is the cable company my friend in Toronto has to use.

http://www.bell.ca/Bell_Internet/Internet_access You might notice that they all have fixed bandwidth limits although you can get unlimited for an extra $10 if you take cable tv , landline and mobile telephone.

USA is equally expensive, particularly in out of city areas due to lack of competition http://www.att.com/u-verse/shop/index.jsp?shopFilter...

We are quite lucky in the UK to have so much choice in providers .

What do you want me to provide evidence of? You the one making all these comments about USA etc. When I know from going out there it is actually very expensive in a lot of parts of the states.

Its not that I think you are lying its that I think you have an unrealistic view of what you should get for you money and seem to have some view that the grass is greener on the other side. I don't understand what your point is about the Dutch server farm? I said I don't believe anyone provides a 1gig up and down backbone (dedicated bandwidth). Please provide a link?!

Since when do VM have a cap on any of their products? You think their product should have no contention? Get real! All broadband work on the basis of users not all maxing their lines out at the same time.

The traffic management throttle is part of their fair use policy which they do not hide... so what is your problem? VM provide unlimited access as far as I am concerned within the realms of normal use and even if you do abuse the service you can still use it as a reduced speed at certain times.

In reply to a post by kamelion:

The USA and Canada charge quite high prices for internet access - here's an example of offerrings from Bell Canada which is the cable company my friend in Toronto has to use.

http://www.bell.ca/Bell_Internet/Internet_access You might notice that they all have fixed bandwidth limits although you can get unlimited for an extra $10 if you take cable tv , landline and mobile telephone.

USA is equally expensive, particularly in out of city areas due to lack of competition http://www.att.com/u-verse/shop/index.jsp?shopFilter...

We are quite lucky in the UK to have so much choice in providers .

Exactly.

what ?

you cannot put virgin media and other companies who use BT's local loop as a comparison


the infrastructure is vastly different for a start !

In reply to a post by Stanman_24:

So what is the point of having 100mb over 20mb ?

Simple answer to that is: multiple users, you'll struggle to get more than a couple of HD video streams working concurrently over a 20mb connection. This sort of use should definitely be prioritised above downloads.

In reply to a post by Stanman_24:

for example you download bf3 from steam on your 120mbit connection but then get throttled 1/3 of the way through and then get upset as you have to wait even longer to play with your friends. That is the exact reason why I left virgin media in the first place because when you want to download content of a substantial size you will have to play by their rules.

If we consider that bf3 is around 20GB (I have no idea what bf3 is or how big it is but I'm guessing it is a game and so will be around that sort of size) then your argument is a bit of a dud. During the day you'll be able to download that without hitting any limits in 20 to 30 minutes, and in the evening peak you'd be able to download it in less than 45 minutes even when throttled for the entire download. (Of course those timings assume that the Steam servers can provide the data quick enough to max out your line which may not be the case for a new release, i.e. when you are most eager to get going.)

What are you talking about?

In reply to a post by worldofadsl:

What do you want me to provide evidence of?

Simple really.

Virgin sell an 'Unlimited Service' - I hope that you will agree with that?

For all the reasons you have, not so patiently, explained, Virgin limit that service by the means you have described - We are agreed that it is only common sense that Virgin have to use these measures at the prices they charge. I totally agree with you.

Virgin are Experts in Internet access provision - I hope we can agree with this?

Most of Virgin's customers rely on Virgin's expertise - I hope we can agree with this?

Virgin's customers are not experts and rely on the expertise of Virgin - You may have difficulty agreeing with this?

Therefore Virgin sells a product that even amateurs know they cannot provide to customers who trust their expertise.

Q.E.D. IF (and it is a big IF) your defense of Virgin is based on fact, i.e. They cannot supply an unlimited service. You and not I are accusing them of Fraud.

Personally I believe that they have been miss-managed and over-sold their product by error and should apologize and get on with running a business under more experienced ownership.

I do apologize for being so stupid as to fall into the comparison trap that you so expertly laid for me. I must be getting old and it's many years since the wife and I played board games with 'people'.

As to providing a link to the family's server and proving payment - get real, I may have been born at night but it wasn't last night.

For comparison between the USA and the UK I relied on the incredulous reaction of our kids and grandkids in the States when they compare prices between Cities - yes I know about the patchy provision we have an elderly aunt on dial up in Northern California BUT she only pays $149 a year. No I will not give you her name address and telephone number - I probably wouldn't if you were the Pope let alone a Virgin fan club member.

I must thank you for providing so many technical reasons why Virgin cannot supply what they advertise and sell.

Jon