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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 25-May-17 16:10:44
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Re: Poor single thread on TBB on whole Virgin Media network?


[re: Daemon66] [link to this post]
 
And notice that in the news items where I'm reporting about poor performance I am not comparing to the xDSL services, but observations based on over a decade of seeing what we see from cable customers.

Perhaps I need educating on what is the maximum single thread speed I can expect to see for cable customers then?

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Daemon66
(member) Thu 25-May-17 16:22:50
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Re: Poor single thread on TBB on whole Virgin Media network?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Perhaps I need educating on what is the maximum single thread speed I can expect to see for cable customers then?
Perhaps. I personally have NEVER got anywhere near full connection speed with a TBB single-thread test, and it is definitely not due to congestion.
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Thu 25-May-17 17:43:06
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Re: Poor single thread on TBB on whole Virgin Media network?


[re: Daemon66] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Daemon66:
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Perhaps I need educating on what is the maximum single thread speed I can expect to see for cable customers then?
Perhaps. I personally have NEVER got anywhere near full connection speed with a TBB single-thread test, and it is definitely not due to congestion.
Kindly detail what is causing the issues then?

As a reference here is my BT connection:
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/14957305174...


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Standard User deleted
(deleted) Thu 25-May-17 18:25:57
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Re: Poor single thread on TBB on whole Virgin Media network?


[re: Daemon66] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Daemon66:
Cable was designed for mass distribution from the headend out to the customers. The reverse path is a later add-on and relies on a scheduled request-to-send mechanism to stop all the customers trying to talk at the same time adding latency to acks etc. Each upstream channel does this independently. TCP throughput is very latency dependent. Multi-threaded throughput is increased if multiple acks can be bundled together reducing the average latency.

Likewise on the downstream each packet (not Ethernet packet) of data needs to be queued since it is actually sent to everyone connected to that same channel, the modem picks off the packets intended for it. These packets which can arrive on any one of the downstream channels in any order then need to be put back together into Ethernet frames before being passed onto the router (or the router part of the SuperHub). Again there is additional latency added because the parts may arrive out-of-order but only when all have arrived can the data be passed on. This is why latency is higher and subject to more jitter on cable.


Okay.

Are you familiar with selective acknowledgement, DOCSIS scheduling, Payload Header Suppression, ack suppression and per-service flow upstream burst parameter/buffer configuration?

The scheduler arranges packets to minimise arrival out of order and ensure it can be mitigated by even a small buffer on the cable modem. It's a FIFO operation by default so as soon as a packet arrives on the IP side it gets split up into 188 byte chunks, encapsulated in MPEG 2 frames and fired down the service group. Not a lot of queuing and not much delay, you can fit an awful lot of 188 byte + overhead frames into a 55.6Mb/s bearer.

The scheduler is not like MLPPP - the bonding is at a lower level than MLPPP, it runs at the MAC layer and is fully managed by the CMTS.

Selective acknowledgement and ack suppression dramatically reduce the need for upstream transmission to the point where 350Mb of downstream can be accommodated by 7Mb of upstream with room to spare through use of a TCP proxy on the CPE to eliminate redundant acknowledgements.

Payload Header Suppression reduces the overhead on layer 3/4 protocols by eliminating redundant information.

Buffers in DOCSIS 3.0 can be configured per service flow. VM have a lot of control over this depending on the firmware they use on their CMTS.

The ~4ms of jitter inherent in DOCSIS without congestion isn't avoidable without some more advanced work, the access network delay in DOCSIS 3.0 is 4-8ms due to the frequency of upstream MAPs, every 2ms on the downstream by default, alongside CMTS processing delays and contention slot availability, but there's no need for this to seriously impact on throughput.

I have no idea what's happened at VM towers, but a friend nearby on a very lightly utilised node running on a Cisco 10k with the 3 x 1 GE SPA delivering 12 downstreams, the tactical solution awaiting full CCAP deployment, can max out with a single stream, making me think it's an issue with either CMTS software/hardware or CCAP software/hardware.

I'm sure you know about CCAP so no need for me to supply any links on that one.

There are some potential issues with regards to single thread performance when using Remote PHY, but as VM aren't doing that just yet that shouldn't be a problem.

There may be some vendor-specific issues going on alongside an overly stretched core network, but DOCSIS 3.0 itself isn't an impediment to very high single-threaded throughput.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 25-May-17 19:33:25
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Re: Poor single thread on TBB on whole Virgin Media network?


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
And a couple of Virgin Media ones today

http://tbb.st/1495727285823497855
http://tbb.st/1495735233448554455
http://tbb.st/1495736060530551855
http://tbb.st/1495727544136327855

Actually looking a bit better this evening, though still a fair share of ones like http://tbb.st/1495734906576872755

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User deleted
(deleted) Thu 25-May-17 20:30:21
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Re: Poor single thread on TBB on whole Virgin Media network?


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
Gets popcorn...

It is always worth remembering that there are some people in the forums, including yourself, who have deep technical knowledge. Thank you for all that you contribute here.
Standard User deleted
(deleted) Thu 25-May-17 21:04:34
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Re: Poor single thread on TBB on whole Virgin Media network?


[re: Daemon66] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Daemon66:
But to be honest you really don't need to worry about the single-thread speed unless it drops below what you actually need for a single stream, i.e. about 25Mbps for a UHD video (though most will actually need a lot less than that).


I had slow single thread speed on VM all last year (Motorola CMTS) and it was incredibly frustrating. The speeds would jump around randomly during downloads and regularly fell to under 10Mbps.

Windows updates, Android updates, Sky on demand, downloading music and TV from Amazon, and files from Dropbox/wetransfer were just some of the things that suffered awful performance. It affected almost everything other than Origin and Steam game downloads.

Thankfully it was solved in December when I was switched to a new CIsco CMTS and single thread speeds are now perfect (other than on TBB).

No one paying for 200Mbps should be happy with 25Mbps.

Edited by deleted (Thu 25-May-17 21:05:08)

Standard User broadband66
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 26-May-17 08:41:49
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Re: Poor single thread on TBB on whole Virgin Media network?


[re: Daemon66] [link to this post]
 
"when cable is working"

I think this is the whole point. It isn't for many users.

Was Eclipse Home Option 1, VM 2Mb & O2 Standard
Now Utility Warehouse (up to 16mbps) via Talk Talk

Edited by broadband66 (Fri 26-May-17 08:42:20)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 26-May-17 08:42:37
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Re: Poor single thread on TBB on whole Virgin Media network?


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
Origin and Steam are well known for throwing lots of threads and multiple file sources i.e. to satisfy gamers desire for as fast possible downloads.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User deleted
(deleted) Fri 26-May-17 11:07:25
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Re: Poor single thread on TBB on whole Virgin Media network?


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by David_W:
Gets popcorn...

It is always worth remembering that there are some people in the forums, including yourself, who have deep technical knowledge. Thank you for all that you contribute here.


Compared to genuine experts just a newbie, but thanks.
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