Alternatives to Sipgate Basic

I've recently ordered broadband from Giganet over CityFibre, and hope to get it installed in late September. Our existing provider is Plusnet FTTC - their existing contract doesn't run out until November so we have plenty of overlap.

We would prefer to keep our landline number for incoming calls only, and my original plan was to migrate it to Sipgate's free Basic service (after getting Giganet installed and working, of course) - but I'm disappointed to find out that this has just been discontinued and none of their advertised plans are free any more.

So does anyone have any recommended free (or very cheap) alternatives? A&A appears to offer a basic package for £1.20 per month but I thought their porting charge was rather high for landline numbers, and I've discovered Number People, who seem to offer a similar service to Sipgate and get good reviews on Trustpilot. So has anyone had experience of Number People - do they offer what I'm after and does it work well? - or do you have any suggested alternatives?

Many thanks

I would recommend VoIPify ... previously known as Port5060 https://www.voipify.net/features/

UK owned and based. Their monthly charges are reasonable and their call charges are excellent. Most companies are much th same when it comes to porting costs.

In reply to a post by MHC:

I would recommend VoIPify ... previously known as Port5060 https://www.voipify.net/features/

Are they not a little pricey at £4.20/month for the one number (£1.20/month) and one extension (£3.00/month) as the OP just wants to keep it for incoming calls only.

I can recommend A&A:

https://www.aa.net.uk/voice-and-mobile/voip-informat...

£1.20 per month. No bundled calls but if you're just looking for incoming calls then there are no other costs (other than porting your number).

I've been with them for around 19 months and everything's just worked

I don't have any personal experience with them, but I found that Voipfone.co.uk has a "flex" plan at £1.50 per month (from 1st Oct 2022, was £1 previously). They're certainly long established.

They also have good support which is why I have been a customer for 7 years. Unlike Sipgate you can only have one device registered.

No experience here with voipfone.co.uk but their porting is £20+VAT:

https://www.voipfone.co.uk/PB_Porting_Numbers.php

And then it looks like they charge £3/month for the number (is that on top of the £1/month fee?)! That's rather expensive either way compared to A&A (£1.20/month)!

I seem to recall that I paid £15+VAT porting with A&A but that was a while ago and I don't see the cost instantly visible on their site now!

Another happy AAISP VoIP customer. Since 2019, and it was about £15 to migrate my number from an Openreach line.

In reply to a post by zeb99:

looks like they charge £3/month for the number (is that on top of the £1/month fee?)!

It does appear to be, the flex plan doesn't come with a number and a number cost £3/month so by my calculation that's £4.80/month inclusive of VAT


Edit: by all accounts it does come with a free 056 UK phone number and the extra £3/month above is for a 01 or 02 number.

Edited by deleted (Tue 13-Sep-22 22:29:38)

In reply to a post by Stargazer99:

A&A appears to offer a basic package for £1.20 per month but I thought their porting charge was rather high for landline numbers

I am presently considering opening a VOIP basic account with AA and I notticed their £44.00 porting fee which mentioned copper lines, (which may be costly for porting because they apparently try to port the copper line without triggering a broadband cancelation.

I don't know why the Copper Line porting charge is so high but I did phone them to ask about VOIP to VOIP number porting and was told that it would cost £15.00 including VAT. - which is not so bad.

Regards,
Fido

I'd never heard of 056 numbers before. They explain them here:

https://www.voipfone.co.uk/EP_UK_Telephone_Numbers.php

But then give very good reasons not to use one!

In reply to a post by zeb99:

I'd never heard of 056 numbers before. They explain them here:

https://www.voipfone.co.uk/EP_UK_Telephone_Numbers.php

But then give very good reasons not to use one!

I wonder if you port your own number in do you have to pay the £3/month

Well, there is no such thing as a free lunch and even in the bargain basements of established hosted providers there have been recently price rises. I am a Voipfone user and very happy with the level of service they give with free calls to them.

If you only really intend to use VoIP for incoming calls then you could be up and running in under 1/2 an hour with a local number on any UK exchange by just paying £3 + VAT a month. If you have a number to port in, then there is a one-off charge of £20 + VAT.

You need to deposit a calling credit to make outgoing calls which can be as low as £5. Interestingly you can call any other VoIP subscriber for free.

Their service is like Lego where you can come and go as you wish with any of there extra services. Their referral scheme could reduce their monthly charge.to you.

A quality provider with a solid service and when things do go wrong, their status web page keeps ypu informed.

I have used Voipfone for years and am very happy with their service.

I just had a chat with voipfone and they said that it was £3/month all inclusive for a number with a single user account. I asked if that single user account could be used on multiple devices but they said no, I would need an extension for each device at a cost of £1.50 per month per extension.

I was assuming that I could use the same account on the other half's mobile as well as my own plus the existing DECT phone and have incoming calls to the ported in landline ringing on all 3 simultaneously but if that's not the case it becomes rather expensive for what we want it for.

Makes one appreciate what a good deal the Sipgate Basic/Starter gig was….

In reply to a post by sjr:

I just had a chat with voipfone and they said that it was £3/month all inclusive for a number with a single user account. I asked if that single user account could be used on multiple devices but they said no, I would need an extension for each device at a cost of £1.50 per month per extension.

I emailed them and got this reply:

You have a choice;

Option One would be have No Extensions. You will then only be able to be on one call at a time.

Option Two would be to have Extensions. Each handset would be configured to it's own Handset [sic] and each handset could be on a different call at the same time as the other handsets.

I suspect that Option One is what you are looking for, therefore the cost will be £3.60 every 30 days.

I interpret that you can have multiple handsets on the one single user account. But they would all operate at the same time so you could only have a single call at a time.

If you wanted to use something like Groundwire or their own Sofphone then that would count as a separate extension. Unless you only wanted to have one call at a time, in which case you wouldn't be able to use the softphone on your mobile and have someone else using the 'home' landline simultaneously.

Dead simple this voip stuff isn't it.......

Edited by Tacitus (Wed 14-Sep-22 13:56:04)

I'm very new to SIP though I've been running an Asterisk system for incoming calls for 5 years. We use Skype for international calls. A few days ago I first signed up to sipgate to discover the retail plan had gone and chose the S plan only to discover I needed to wait for for a PIN number by post! As I was hoping to demonstrate SIP at a talk on Tuesday I was giving I looked elsewhere, discovered this forum and others recommending A&A.

It was a simple sign up process at A&A including paying a £1 initial fee by bank transfer, then confirming an online DD authorisation, and I was up and running with their £1.20/month for a landline number.

This was Sunday. I then got into some technical issues and emailed technical support for a reply hopefully Monday morning. Technical Support is only M-F and (I recall) Sat am. But within an hour I had a reply from Tobias who tried to solve my problem. Excellent. I would say that the A&A website is pretty awful - something looking like a 90s website and I had missed having to have a 2nd password for the SIP line (as opposed to the account).

I then had a 2nd problem trying to configure my MicroSIP, Again Tobias was helping just after midnight Sunday and again Monday morning. That's dedicated customer service. Turned out that the example MicroSIP configuration on the A&A site was not right for my version (which is quite new). When I spotted the error by trial and error I emailed Tobias and he updated the A&A website in minutes.

I can also do sip calls to another sip provider which is nice.

A&A are a UK company and deserve success in what is becoming a crowded market. They really need to get their website refreshed (same as Zen, their website is clunky with obscure links to important information).

Alan

In reply to a post by Alan_Wilts:

It was a simple sign up process at A&A including paying a £1 initial fee by bank transfer, then confirming an online DD authorisation, and I was up and running with their £1.20/month for a landline number.

Hi Alan,

I had had planned to join Andrews Arnold, (right now; as a second provider and potential a replacement to Sipgate if they do not retain Sipgate Starter for existing customers), but there is something in the Andrew Arnold accounts processes for VOIP that made me uncomfortable, and I will pass.

Andrews Arnold seem to insist on direct debit which is OK but what is it is potentially not OK about their system is that the calls costs can be open ended, and you cannot place a limit on the monthly call cost in the extremely remote event of calls being billed that you did not make.

eg. I pay my mobile phone provider by direct debit, but I have set a monthly calls cap as a buffer to limit the liability for calls made out outside of the calls package.

Potentially VOIP systems can be hacked.

Personally, I cannot agree to a potentially unlimited liability for calls via a VOIP call system especially for a website that I have to trawl through to find where things are up to.

Andrews Arnold do answer the phone and they are probably great, but it is not for me.

Regards,
Fido

Hi Fido

Good point. I notice there is a cap on per minute costs which is strange. I recall it is set at 20/min for UK calls (has be enough to cover mobiles) and 1p/minute for international (effectively you need to ring them to get it cleared).

I agree with you, a per month or even per day max would be much better and I would like to restricted international calls to a very few specific countries.

The A&A website has lots of prompts and links to its security page which I've not yet got my head round but it suggested to me that the current SIP topology is not secure. When the whole country goes voip I wonder if we will see a big increase in fraud and even homes hacked.

If you find another sip provide that offers flexible and sensible limits do say.

Regards
Alan

Do you know if A&A allow you to sign in to the same VOIP account with multiple "phones"? e.g. both husband and wife can have a SIP app on their mobile phone to answer the same "landline" number for a single £1.20/month?

TIA

https://support.aa.net.uk/VoIP_-_Multple_Targets

Yes, I've done it in the last few days. Windows PC, Android Mobile and Linux PC though the Linux has stopped receiving for some reason. I also got a Frizt!Box logged on at the same time and was sending from an analogue handset but not receiving. Both the Linux and Frizt!Box were hot tethered to the mobile as it was a test setup. It's all early days for me but definitely had multiple devices ringing.

Great.

Have you come across anything regarding a Call Blocking on AA site like a 1572 service or something similar?

Thanks

In reply to a post by Fido:

Andrews Arnold seem to insist on direct debit which is OK but what is it is potentially not OK about their system is that the calls costs can be open ended, and you cannot place a limit on the monthly call cost in the extremely remote event of calls being billed that you did not make.

eg. I pay my mobile phone provider by direct debit, but I have set a monthly calls cap as a buffer to limit the liability for calls made out outside of the calls package.

Potentially VOIP systems can be hacked.

Personally, I cannot agree to a potentially unlimited liability for calls via a VOIP call system especially for a website that I have to trawl through to find where things are up to.

Andrews Arnold do answer the phone and they are probably great, but it is not for me.

Regards,
Fido

I have to admit this is a bit of a concern. I wonder why A&A do not have a maximum monthly spend limit cut off. It seems to be a bit of an oversight there is a warning option when a limit is exceeded but no mention of a cut off.

There are some good options to help in this regard (some listed below) but I am a bit uneasy about not being able to specify a limit or stop outgoing calls when a limit is exceeded.

https://support.aa.net.uk/VoIP_Security
Set call limit including banning international or national calls
Warning when monthly limit exceeded
Warning when new IP/agent is detected
Brute force attack prevention

If you are not so precious about retaining your number then AA is a good option. You can pick a local number for the £1.20 a month.
I was with VM several years back, and got loads of spam calls. It got so bad that I unplugged the phone and just left the answering service active. I still got a lot of junk messages, so I went to AA and took out a VOIP number, put that on an ATA and have never looked back. No spam calls.
We changed to EE a few years ago, fed up of VM and their lies and bad service. They gave us a new landline, but was soon full of junk calls again. I unplugged the line as we were not using it anyway, all our family had the AA number by now.
These days we are FTTP with EE, and they took the landline out of the package anyway. We don't have it any more. Like email with an ISP, think about changing to either your own domain or a provider that moved with you. If you're tied to your provider it gets harder to move in future.

Been with Sipgate on two of their provided VoIP local numbers for 12 years or more and never received a SPAM call. The reason I believe is because VoIP numbers fall outside of published telephone number ranges so they don't get robotically called. For example my local number starts 89, whereas in my area landline numbers never get that high, I think starting 6 is the highest number. Of course transferring your landline number you would receive the same amount of SPAM calls unless the provider has something in place to filter them out.

Edited by E300 (Thu 15-Sep-22 13:52:32)

As the OP pointed out, Sipgate now charge, which is why they were looking elsewhere. I've a Sipgate number too, that I give to companies for reply instead of my main number. When they sell their database on, I don't have to put up with further rubbish.
I did get spam calls to my Sipgate number, that's probably the reason though.

Indeed I had followed the thread but didn't make my point well enough, for that I apologise.

My point being any VoIP provider (i.e. nothing special about AA and lack of cold calls) that gives out a "local" landline type number is likely to be free of SPAM calls (because the numbers fall outside of published landline ranges), until such a time the number when given out gets added to a spam list somewhere or sold on of course.

Edited by E300 (Thu 15-Sep-22 14:22:55)

In reply to a post by TMCR:

If you are not so precious about retaining your number then AA is a good option.

What if one is "precious" 😉 and want to retain their number - don't A&A offer to port in numbers? Website says they do.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by TMCR:

If you are not so precious about retaining your number then AA is a good option.

What if one is "precious" 😉 and want to retain their number - don't A&A offer to port in numbers? Website says they do.

At a cost...

That's a given. I've not known any VoIP providers to port external numbers in for free. Its usually somewhere between £20 and £40 to do so.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

That's a given. I've not known any VoIP providers to port external numbers in for free. Its usually somewhere between £20 and £40 to do so.

The OP had already said they though AA's porting cost was too expensive.

Porting a number is infrequent at best.

So unless the one-off cost is astronomic (which it isn't) then I wouldn't really include that as a key decision making criteria as ongoing charges and call costs will fairly quickly make any cost difference between porting fees pale into insignificance.

Edited by Pheasant (Thu 15-Sep-22 18:49:18)

No idea, I'm not a customer yet. I did use their online chat to ask the same question as you did the other day and they pointed me to that link. Try the online chat, they seem quite knowledgeable and helpful.

In reply to a post by sjr:

I just had a chat with voipfone and they said that it was £3/month all inclusive for a number with a single user account. I asked if that single user account could be used on multiple devices but they said no, I would need an extension for each device at a cost of £1.50 per month per extension.

I was assuming that I could use the same account on the other half's mobile as well as my own plus the existing DECT phone and have incoming calls to the ported in landline ringing on all 3 simultaneously but if that's not the case it becomes rather expensive for what we want it for.

What your are looking at is one incoming line: £3.60
Three extensions at £1.80 each = £5.40
One Group = £1.20
Total £10.20

That arrangement allows each extension to make and receive calls irrespective of what is going on on the other extensions. An incoming call will only ring extensions not in use. Call waiting overcomes that problem but costs £2.40.

The three extension would be numbered 200, 201 and 202 and by calling another extension the call will be free. Of course when out and about, you need an internet connection from somewhere to have VoIP calls.

Now is that package THAT expensive? Tell me where you can get the equivalent cheaper.

All prices shown are inclusive of VAT and applies from 1st October. (At the moment extension are £1,10 each).

If you need to call Voipfone the call is free with no IVR present. Usually calls are answered pretty promptly and whatever the problem, it is resolved within that one call.

To be honest I’d expect most *domestic* type users to use any inclusive call minutes in their existing mobile packages before spending on VoIP minutes/call packages for outgoing calls - especially if you’re at work, or out and about, travelling etc.

All the functionality you describe was hitherto available at nil monthly cost on Sipgate. Which a was ideal for a domestic user for inbound calls and some outbound calls.

Going from that to £120 a year on your scenario *before call costs* just seems a leap to far…to me anyway, but as they save your mileage may vary.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Now is that package THAT expensive?

I would say so, I know you have a more complex setup for your needs but for most its just catching those elderly relatives/friends who refuse to call a mobile number.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Now is that package THAT expensive?

I would say so, I know you have a more complex setup for your needs but for most its just catching those elderly relatives/friends who refuse to call a mobile number.

It wasn't that long ago that Voipfone charged £2.40 for a number and £1.20 for an extension: so at today's pricing that is quite a jump apparently due to the large increase in electricity costs at the data centre.

I share the sentiment of not wishing to pay mobile rates to call friends and relatives when a regular number (01/02/03) might well be included in inclusive minutes. A no frills package to receive calls on your mobile with a landline number costs £3.60 with Voipfone - where can you get such a service at a lower price today?

To me it seems rather selfish for you to make calls at no cost with no regard to what it might cost for someone to call you when you don't have an alternative landline style number.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

To be honest I’d expect most *domestic* type users to use any inclusive call minutes in their existing mobile packages before spending on VoIP minutes/call packages for outgoing calls - especially if you’re at work, or out and about, travelling etc.

All the functionality you describe was hitherto available at nil monthly cost on Sipgate. Which a was ideal for a domestic user for inbound calls and some outbound calls.

Going from that to £120 a year on your scenario *before call costs* just seems a leap to far…to me anyway, but as they save your mileage may vary.

Not everyone has a mobile and for a significant number of subscribers that do have one, it is generally switched off. Your mobile can be contacted on a landline style number for just £50 a year or 14p a day. Come on now, it costs more than that to have a coffee on the go!

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

To me it seems rather selfish for you to make calls at no cost with no regard to what it might cost for someone to call you when you don't have an alternative landline style number.

Not sure anyone makes calls for free, do they? inclusive or unlimited minutes increases the monthly cost of a package so technically not free but if you have a way then please share how to do it. I won't be engaging in a discussion about people being selfish as that probably won't end well.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Not everyone has a mobile and for a significant number of subscribers that do have one, it is generally switched off

I can honestly say I don't know one person who typically has their mobile phone switched off, accept they may not get a signal from time to time but never switched off.

Edit: Just to add I am referring to people's personal mobiles phones not company ones that they may choose to switch off at the end of the working day.

Edited by deleted (Sat 17-Sep-22 11:58:41)

Really - you’re claiming a significant number of people that have a mobile, generally have it switched off !? Not in my experience.

Fair play if you choose not to have a mobile. In any event you have to pay some provider something if you want a means of electronic communication.

What I’m saying is why would you pay over and above the odds to keep a landline active if you’ve already got a mobile with an inclusive calls. Note not “free” you’re paying for something already.

Doesn’t make a lot of sense to pay for something twice. Not sure how that could be construed as being selfish either.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

a significant number of subscribers that do have one, it is generally switched off.

No longer the case. The "elderly" generation of 2022 are, in my limited experience, more aware of mobile phones, texting, receiving pictures and video calls than they would have been 5 years ago. The pandemic may have helped of course.

We have relatives who will only ring the landline "as ringing mobiles is expensive", odd that as they are on BT plans which include landlines and mobiles, I also note that TalkTalk and Sky plans also include landlines and mobile. After my Sipgate debacle I looked around at other VoIP providers and they all seem very expensive to have a similar plan to copper providers or mobiles if you just want something simple.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Not everyone has a mobile and for a significant number of subscribers that do have one, it is generally switched off

I can honestly say I don't know one person who typically has their mobile phone switched off, accept they may not get a signal from time to time but never switched off.

Edit: Just to add I am referring to people's personal mobiles phones not company ones that they may choose to switch off at the end of the working day.

Where I live there is little signal, the phone has to work hard to stay connected. This flattens the battery in a few hours. The phone needs to be switched off or on charge.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

The phone needs to be switched off or on charge.

WiFi calling should help that on most modern handsets. My friend across town has had poor signal for 10 years on EE/Three/O2 and used WiFi calling which solved the issue.

Once upon a time I used to rely on boosters (mostly the horrid 1st and 2nd generation SureSignals from Voda, which has a nasty habit of dying just out of warranty). Way back in the mists of time (OK it was only 2006) I even had tried an older style GSM repeater - you know the ones Ofcom ban 😂

But I digress, WiFi Calling works a treat.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Once upon a time I used to rely on boosters (mostly the horrid 1st and 2nd generation SureSignals from Voda, which has a nasty habit of dying just out of warranty). Way back in the mists of time (OK it was only 2006) I even had tried an older style GSM repeater - you know the ones Ofcom ban 😂

The femtocells were great from Vodafone, but the other networks didn't sell used to loan to those "whom had need", all a bit odd. I used a Cel-Fi for a bit, but wasn't great domestically as you need one part of the home that gets signal.

But I digress, WiFi Calling works a treat.

It solved the problem.

I’ve still got emotional scars from dealing with Vodafone over those SureSignal boosters. When you got them setup send working they were great, but they were finicky with internet connections…

For a long time in Suffolk I used bonded 4G connections (from a antenna on my mast on my chimney to sniff signal to the nearest mast) and flip flopping from one CGNAT to another could cause the S/Signals to go into a tail spin as the mothership hadn’t white listed the IP range - this necessitated a long winded support call, where you eventually got through to someone who knew what to do.

Then there was the V3 overheating / catching fire (luckily none of mine) but it happened to other folks.I had acquaintances on another forum at the time drilling holes in the v3 units, like some weird swiss cheese, so they didn’t overheat and die and/or catch fire.

WiFi Calling. It’s a doddle in comparison.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

To me it seems rather selfish for you to make calls at no cost with no regard to what it might cost for someone to call you when you don't have an alternative landline style number.

Not sure anyone makes calls for free, do they? inclusive or unlimited minutes increases the monthly cost of a package so technically not free but if you have a way then please share how to do it. I won't be engaging in a discussion about people being selfish as that probably won't end well.

You can open an account with Voipfone for absolutely no cost but you will need a laptop or mobile phone to make and receive calls. Likewise a family member can do the same. VoIP to VoIP calls on the Voipfone platform are free. With zero call credit you can actually call any other Voipfone subscriber using their landline number.

We gave up trying to get them to work on our corp network, and we ended up with 6 ADSL lines in one building each one for a dedicated SureSignal. Couldn’t get Voda corporate to do anything in less than 18months and we were leaving the site in 12, but when execs scream their phones don’t work, you get them working.

WiFi calling would have been so much easier!😂

That's pretty standard fare for any VoiP provider - free on-net calls.

Now if you know of any decent ones with (free / bilateral ) VoIP peering capability, that is net to net - now that would be interesting 😃

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

You can open an account with Voipfone for absolutely no cost but you will need a laptop or mobile phone to make and receive calls. Likewise a family member can do the same. VoIP to VoIP calls on the Voipfone platform are free. With zero call credit you can actually call any other Voipfone subscriber using their landline number.

On a light-hearted note, you're one of the only people I know who uses Voipfone so I may need your number, so I have someone to call 🤣

In reply to a post by dect:

On a light-hearted note, you're one of the only people I know who uses Voipfone so I may need your number, so I have someone to call 🤣

Spoken in jest, but you make it sound like hardly anyone uses Voipfone. OK they had a series of major outages a while back but I've always thought they appeared to be one of the better VoIP providers. Probably not the cheapest but they appear to be a decent choice

Can you think of any reasons why I should change my mind as they're on the list for when I have to move to VoIP/Cloud Phone or whatever the marketing 'droids decide to call it that week.

Edited by Tacitus (Sun 18-Sep-22 13:47:41)

In reply to a post by Tacitus:

but you make it sound like hardly anyone uses Voipfone. OK they had a series of major outages a while back but I've always thought they appeared to be one of the better VoIP providers. Probably not the cheapest but they appear to be a decent choice

Can you think of any reasons why I should change my mind as they're on the list for when I have to move to VoIP/Cloud Phone or whatever the marketing 'droids decide to call it that week.

I mean no disrespect to Voipfone as I would have the same issue with any VOIP provider if I was purely limited to free VOIP calls, they would be on my short list but I personally think they are too expensive for my needs but thats just my personal choice. As I have said before I use a different provider for incoming call than I do for outgoing so I wouldn't be wanting to pay Voipfone monthly charges for just incoming calls.

Edited by deleted (Sun 18-Sep-22 15:10:47)

Since I joined Sipgate Basic/Starter I have been a very light user, (ie. around £1.50 per month), but I have made a few calls now and then. - That said; the business model where accounts can sit there and never ever make a call seems to be unsustainable. - No critisicm of those who have used the system in that way since that was totally allowable under the rules but it does not seem to be sustainable..

At present the theory is that Sipgate will try to move existing Sipgate Starter customers to their light business offering next year at an additional cost of around £10.00 per month which is a riddiculous idea. - As I understand it no one has been notified of this change but new Sipgate customers cannot sign up to Sipgate Starter.

From my viewpoint Sipgate have for the most part been OK: they never seem to answer the phone but they do respond to emails after a few days. However, there are also negatives; ie. they try to lock you into an automatic card crediting system once you agree to it, (which you then need to contact them to remove it at their end which is whiffy), and if there is any money in the account when you leave there is a potention £6.00 fee with various hoops to jump through to get any money over £6.00 back but other than that they have generally been OK and I would probably stay with them if they had a more competative residential offering.

It seems that Sipgate's competitors have monthly fees of around zero pounds for pay as you go / £1.00 for pay as you go / £5.00 with inclusive minutes / £10.00 with inclusive minutes and most of the competitors seem better at answering the phone but some of whom have had cyclical reliability issues previously;

https://www.ukvoipforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=6

As above it seems that Sipgate in trying to push their residential customers onto a costly light business accout with a £10.00 monthly cost which seems like a Brain Fart and my guess is that they will come to their senses and may introduce a new type of Sipgate Starter for Residential Users with either a small monthly fee of around £1.00 per month or a £5.00 monthly fee that included 500 minutes of free calls. (I have no basis for this guess but should they not introduce something of this type they will no doubt hemorage customers).

For me; the main competitor to my VOIP line is my Mobile phone contract which already has unused inclusive minutes and with a £10.00 per month charge for a VOIP Phone fee for nothing I would probably just give up the VOIP phone and would just use the mobile phones instead but a VOIP cost of £5.00 per month, (as long as it included at least 500 inclusive minutes per month and an extreemly low VOIP call cost after that, would be within a range of acceptability.

Regards,
Fido

TBH I would have put Sipgate on my list. For residential use I too am a fairly light user, so Sipgate would have been ideal.

A&A also look good but I'm a bit put off by their use of Direct Debit. VoIP is hackable and it would be reasonable to be able to set a monthly limit on call costs. A limit on time/cost for individual calls doesn't do it since it would be possible for a hacker to rack up a number of relatively short calls and a large bill in a short time.

At present I pay iDNet £6/month for unlimited calls via PSTN. None of the VoIP providers will come anywhere near matching that. iDNet's current bundled VoIP offer is £15/month (inc vat), unlimited calls on a 2 year contract which includes a Yealink DECT base with one handset.

Perfectly reasonable offer but I already have a Gigaset base and handsets which will do both PSTN and VoIP. AFAICT Yealink DECT uses their own version of cat-iq which is not compatible with anyone else, so I would be buying a base plus additional handsets which I don't need. See RHS of the datasheet here:

https://www.yealink.com/website-service/attachment/p...

I can see iDNet's reasoning for standardising on one set of hardware to minimise support calls, but I don't need the hardware. Their call though.

In reply to a post by Tacitus:

A&A also look good but I'm a bit put off by their use of Direct Debit. VoIP is hackable and it would be reasonable to be able to set a monthly limit on call costs. A limit on time/cost for individual calls doesn't do it since it would be possible for a hacker to rack up a number of relatively short calls and a large bill in a short time.

Surely they are obligated (by the terms of the DD scheme) to work with you on any disputed bills prior to taking payment through the DD process.

I think you're probably correct, but IMHO it would be better to prevent it happening rather than have the hassle after the problem occurs.

In reply to a post by Tacitus:

I think you're probably correct, but IMHO it would be better to prevent it happening rather than have the hassle after the problem occurs.

Yes; as I said much earlier in the thread I too would avoid Andrews Arnold because of this potential open ended direct debit issue.

Does anyone have stong views about the Swedish company Tel2 ?

https://tel2.co.uk/index.html#plans

It seems that you may be able to use Paypal with Tel2 which means that you may be able to have more control over the payment (subject to the fine print) but some sites give Tel2 a thumbs diwn for sales practices.

From the following Trustpilot Reviews they appear to be another one to avoid:

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/tele2.com

Regarding the broadband providers and copper lines, they all often have unlimited calls package options, (eg. for £6.00 extra), but you need to add the copper line rental cost to that to calculate the overall monthly cost of copper lines so overall copper lines always cost more and part of the costing model that the broadband copper line providers use when supplying VOIP Lines appears to be inflenced by what they see as a loss of revenue from the loss of copper lines and until the main copper line providers, BT etc, get out of that loss of copper line revenue mind set and they stop trying to link their VOIP offering to their broadband and their own routers mobiles phone lines are the the competitors to VOIP lines.

Edited by Fido (Sun 18-Sep-22 20:40:00)

I initiated a port to Sipgate before they stopped sign ups, using an unused account from years ago. The port will actually complete this week.

That said; the business model where accounts can sit there and never ever make a call seems to be unsustainable.

The marginal cost to Sipgate of having an unused account is virtually zero..

My line will be used for occasional calls but if they try and impose a monthly charge in the £10 range there are many other/better alternatives for residential users.

If I recall this is not the first time Sipgate have tried to remove the Basic/Starter service... they would actually do better if they delayed trying this for another 3 years or so when the PTSN gets switched off.

In reply to a post by gt94sss2:

If I recall this is not the first time Sipgate have tried to remove the Basic/Starter service... they would actually do better if they delayed trying this for another 3 years or so when the PTSN gets switched off.

I have theory around this...probably ballcocks, but here it is:

Germany switched off their PSTN in 2014 I believe - this was around the time that Sipgate first mooted the withdrawal of their free tier - I reckon because there was a surge of new subscribers from the fatherland.

Fast forward to 2022 and the imminent shutoff of our PSTN starting with copper stop sells already underway, I think they may be seeing a similar surge of Brit applicants and they've probably thought, well enough, now time to charge.

As said maybe purely coincidental. But who knows....

In reply to a post by gt94sss2:

The marginal cost to Sipgate of having an unused account is virtually zero..

The marginal cost is not just the dormancy cost; it us also the recovery of the setup cost to Sipgate of setting the account up, providing a free number and sending a letter from Germany, at Sipgate's expense, to confirm the customers address which including staff costs is probabke a nominal £3 to £5 per customer which will never be recovered if no calls are made, - Couple those costs with rising energy, equipment, staffing and bandwidth costs and it is easy to see why Sipgate has sought to rid itself of the residential customers who never make a call.

In reply to a post by gt94sss2:

If I recall this is not the first time Sipgate have tried to remove the Basic/Starter service....

Until I read this I had not realized that Sipgate had planned a similar move in 2014 and I then googled and I found this old thread which indicates what happenned in 2014 and somewhat explains Sipgate's motivation.

https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/voip/4375510-sipga...

In 2014 a reply to a customer who was closing his account in response to the news Sipgate wrote;


"Currently we are investigating options available to us to continue service to all basic accounts holders who actively use their accounts. Clarification via Twitter, Facebook and direct emailing will be made by our UK Product Development team over the coming days.


My recomendation to Sipgate would be not to give up on residential customers altogether a smarter way would be to add small monthly fee options of £1.00 plus all calls to be chargeable as they are now or possibly a £2.00 monthly fee that also included 100 free calls per month as that model would be competitive and should grow the customer base and should provide a regular income stream for Sipgate.

Regards,
Fido

In reply to a post by Tacitus:

A&A also look good but I'm a bit put off by their use of Direct Debit. VoIP is hackable and it would be reasonable to be able to set a monthly limit on call costs. A limit on time/cost for individual calls doesn't do it since it would be possible for a hacker to rack up a number of relatively short calls and a large bill in a short time.

AAISP do have some security to prevent big bills - restricting access to known IP addresses/ranges, sendng an email if a bill exceeds a certain amount and sending an email if a new endpoint registers.

I appreciate that these measures may not be sufficient for some, but they're better than nothing!

In reply to a post by Tacitus:

At present I pay iDNet £6/month for unlimited calls via PSTN. None of the VoIP providers will come anywhere near matching that.

I guess that decision comes down to how many outgoing calls you make - As a light user I've never found that I'd generate a bill anywhere near the £x/month for unlimited calls. Again, this may not be appropriate for everyone but it's worth looking realistically at your usage to see if unlimited deals are an expensive option?

Edited by ferretuk (Tue 20-Sep-22 08:53:22)

In reply to a post by ferretuk:

AAISP do have some security to prevent big bills - restricting access to known IP addresses/rranges, sendng an email if a bill exceeds a certain amount and sending an email if a new endpoint registers.

I find these work well, but I turned off the IP alert as I use the app on my mobile phone.

In reply to a post by MHC:

I would recommend VoIPify ... previously known as Port5060 https://www.voipify.net/features/

UK owned and based. Their monthly charges are reasonable and their call charges are excellent. Most companies are much th same when it comes to porting costs.

Hello MHC,

Thank you for your recommendation for Voipify.

I have never known Sipgate to answer the phone but Sipgate usually do respond to email/message/queries but my query to Sipgate, (from a week ago), asking for information as to their plans regarding my Sipgate Account have not been answered.

At present with regard to Sipgate we are in lombo.

If Sipgate let us know that we can stay as we are I will stay with them but I have been looking at alternatives and I have decided upon Voipify if Sipgate do not relent.

I phoned Voipify today and they answered the phone. - A good refreshing start for a Sipgate customer. - No direct debit with Voipify, you preload the account and only the balance in the account can be used for calls so no open ended direct debit risk to keep a careful eye upon but you do need to keep a positive funds balance in the account.

The Voipify website does not make it clear but the basic monthly cost for one user with one base station, is £4.20, (including VAT), which is higher than most others but the higher base cost is then somewhat balanced by the lower call cost of only 0.6p per minute which mitigates it so, after considering the alternative suppliers, cost, reliabilty record, reputation, etc. I have decided upon Voipify if Sipgate do not quickly let us know that our Sipgate Accounts can stay as they are.

Regards,
Fido

Good to get teh feedback ...

I like them for US calls - cheaper than most of Europe including mobile.

Yes,you need to keep a positive balance - or at least for a year or so. They will email daily when you get close to zero, and topping up is easy, create an invoice and then pay it. OR in my case when I go negative I can still make/receive calls for a while and just need to pay off the balance monthly if I wish, although I tend to stay in credit.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Not everyone has a mobile and for a significant number of subscribers that do have one, it is generally switched off

I can honestly say I don't know one person who typically has their mobile phone switched off, accept they may not get a signal from time to time but never switched off.

Edit: Just to add I am referring to people's personal mobiles phones not company ones that they may choose to switch off at the end of the working day.

Where I live there is little signal, the phone has to work hard to stay connected. This flattens the battery in a few hours. The phone needs to be switched off or on charge.

Similar story here with mobile signals. What we do is use wifi calling with the phone in airplane mode. That stops it looking for a signal that probably doesn't exist and draining the battery. Simply switch airplane mode on, that will most likely turn the wifi off so just turn wifi back on again. You do of course need to remember to switch airplane mode off when you go out but you soon get used to that.

Edited by sjr (Tue 20-Sep-22 15:44:45)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

That's a given. I've not known any VoIP providers to port external numbers in for free. Its usually somewhere between £20 and £40 to do so.

Everyone gets charged to do it... so unless people offering ultra budget services fancy taking a hit, they'll charge too

Sure. Porting numbers requires time and resource. Time and resource aren't free as we know.

In reply to a post by sjr:

Similar story here with mobile signals. What we do is use wifi calling with the phone in airplane mode. That stops it looking for a signal that probably doesn't exist and draining the battery. Simply switch airplane mode on, that will most likely turn the wifi off so just turn wifi back on again. You do of course need to remember to switch airplane mode off when you go out but you soon get used to that.

Some people have managed to make wifi calls with the type of phone I have but I have never been successful. If do as above I can however make a Sipgate VOIP call!

Do you ever get Text messages via Wifi? That is something I would like as banks etc love to send codes which you then have to enter soon after they are supposed to arrive.

Yes text messages come through no problem with airplane mode on and wifi on.

I'm on EE with a Samsung S22 but this has been working with my two previous phones too (Huawei P20 Pro and HTC 10)

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

Do you ever get Text messages via Wifi? That is something I would like as banks etc love to send codes which you then have to enter soon after they are supposed to arrive.

EE launched WiFi calling back in 2015 or 2016…. With both voice and SMS. Three quickly followed, and then Vodafone and O2 launched WiFi calling without text messaging…. And it was sometime in 2020 when Vodafone managed to get SMS working, and O2 caught up end of last year. 🤣 Not all the virtual networks support WiFi calling or WiFi SMS, for example Plusnet mobile does not.

WiFi calling replaced the “SureSignal” box that Vodafone used to sell, and the other signal boosters that some networks provided.

It should be built in to any recent Android, and all iOS phones back to the iPhone 6.

In order to see what is going on with Sipgate I took a look at other Websites in Europe and I found this;

https://www.teltarif.de/sipgate-starter-tarif/news/8...

My german is very poor but from what I can tell it is as we thought;

(1). Sipgate Starter is not open to new Starter customers.

(2). They plan to end Sipgate Starter for existing customers in 2023.

(3). The reason for all of this is their desire to get rid of, "what they call", Dead Files that have booked numbers but do not use them anyway.

(4). Aparantly, Sipgate do plan to introduce a replacement free offer but I have no idea what that could be or when.

Like I posted earlier we are in Limbo.

As far as I understand it with my Gigaset N300A base station I can have a few accounts running in parallel and if I can do that, for a month or so, I will use Sipgate Starter as well as Voipify on the same N300a unit. - (Kindly advise if you know that is not possible).

I suspect that the writing is on the wall for free accounts and that Brexshit does not help.

I have had enough of Limbo an I am now openning a Voipify Account and will port the Sipgate Number to them for £15.00.

Regards,
Fido

Edited by Fido (Wed 21-Sep-22 01:25:42)

In reply to a post by Fido:

I suspect that the writing is on the wall for free accounts and that Brexshit does not help.

Why would you make up a cause like that, the last time I checked this was also affecting customers in Germany which are still very much in the EU.

What not wait and see. They haven’t even reached out to existing a/c holders yet.

Sure do your homework, but why the urgent rush to run away (and pay)?

The bridge hasn’t been gelignite’d. 😀

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

What not wait and see. They haven’t even reached out to existing a/c holders yet.

Sure do your homework, but why the urgent rush to run away (and pay)?

I'm with you on this, a lot can change between now and any planned announcement for 2023 and even if they notify people, they won't be turfing people off their system the same day.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

What not wait and see. They haven’t even reached out to existing a/c holders yet.

Sure do your homework, but why the urgent rush to run away (and pay)?

The bridge hasn’t been gelignite’d. 😀

Obviously, Sipgate may relent with regard to their existing Sipgate Starter Accounts. - Let us hope so but the fact that Sipgate do not reply to messages/queries about this does not bode well.

Last night I paid Voipify the £6, (that apparantly comes off any bills), in order to open a Voipify Account but for now I will not burn the bridges with Sipgate and I will not port the Sipgate number out until after the dust has properly settled.

For now I plan to use the Voipify number as well as the Sipgate number on the N300a and I will see how they both go for at least six months to a year and will make a decision then. - (In between times I will keep the balance in the Sipgate Account low in case I need to exit quickly).

Maybe my openning a Voipify Account now it is premature but I do not like being in Limbo or feeling like a mushroom and then needing to quickly make last minute changes.

Regards,
Fido

Edited by Fido (Wed 21-Sep-22 13:43:09)

If that gives you peace and reassurance, then fair play.

My personal view is that tis better to wait and see what they actually announce, before rushing away. In any event it won’t be overnight and even if it was my balance on the account is minimal and porting numbers is pretty easy and quick.

Each to their own.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

You can open an account with Voipfone for absolutely no cost but you will need a laptop or mobile phone to make and receive calls. Likewise a family member can do the same. VoIP to VoIP calls on the Voipfone platform are free. With zero call credit you can actually call any other Voipfone subscriber using their landline number.

On a light-hearted note, you're one of the only people I know who uses Voipfone so I may need your number, so I have someone to call 🤣

PM me for details

In reply to a post by Alan_Wilts:

If you find another sip provide that offers flexible and sensible limits do say.

Viopify were recommended by MHC earlier in this thread and he was right about them.


Up to now Voipify get a big thumbs up from me.

Using one local phone number and one extension, (eg an N300a or similar with four or more dect phones counts as one extension), they have a base cost of £4.20 per month including VAT (Which works out at £50.40 per year or 97p per week). - Which is higher than some others, but the call costs are lower than others and for me that balances it out.

They are a small UK based company.

Everything shown on the website and within the account is ex vat (which is a PITA) but apparently, they aim for SMEs and that is why.

Voipify do seem really good and the fact that you need to keep a positive balance in the account with them eliminates any potential risk of huge direct debit bills due to hacking. - (No matter how unlikely it would be).

Right now on my Gigaset N300a I have both Sipgate and Voipify set up so that both phone numbers are fully operational and both numbers work well.

Regards,
Fido

Edited by Fido (Thu 22-Sep-22 22:39:08)

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

In reply to a post by dect:

On a light-hearted note, you're one of the only people I know who uses Voipfone so I may need your number, so I have someone to call 🤣

PM me for details

Your all right as I'm happy with my current providers but should I ever switch to Voipfone I'll send you a PM, but thanks for the kind offer