Which BT-based ISP with static IP?

Hi,

I have some specific requirements for a relative who is deaf, and must stay on a BT line because of her textphone:

- BT Wholesale based ISP
- static IP (for remote support by me)
- only email, web, backups and SSH used
- 10GB transfer per month for backups - ideally with unlimited offpeak
- low cost - something like £15 per month
- max speed not too important - has about 3 Mbps currently
- must work with existing Netgear DG834G router
- (optional) SSH traffic on non-standard port (222) should be unshaped, or given good performance

The last one is optional as I could change the SSH port number, but I need to be able to use a port number that gets good interactive performance even with shaping - for example 119/NNTP on MetroNet/Plusnet is very slow but 222 or 22 is good.

She's currently on MetroNet (lowest package, which is not enough for backups) - they are owned by Plusnet of course but since upgrading to Plusnet requires reconfiguring the router/PC (IP address change), I thought I'd ask around for other options.

Any suggestions very welcome!

Richard

Which exchange?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Which exchange?

It's Newbury, 01635 - see http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/THNU

Edited by deleted (Mon 27-Jul-09 12:57:00)

Well, there's plenty of choice there including Virgin and LLU if the exchange code turns out to be THNU.

Any reason why you're looking at BT Wholesale only? Any price constraints?

The reason to only go with BT is that text phones for deaf people (Qwerty keyboard plus phone connection, e.g. Minicom) work well with BT through its TextDirect service - you call a normal voice number prefixed with 1800x and an operator comes on the line who transcribes the call between text and audio in both directions. There's also a special discount for textphone users.

While it might be possible to switch to LLU, it doesn't seem worth it for the hassle and probable lack of compatibility with TextDirect.

I only want better broadband with 10GB transfer and a BT-based ISP will probably have what's needed. Plusnet looks pretty good although I still need to visit to switch the IP address to a new one.

In a market 3 exchange - Plusnet Value would be excellent value at £5.99 a month.
but comes with an 18 month contract

Interesting - however it seems that Plusnet don't allow static IPs on Value package anyway: http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,7451...

Also this must be an LLU offering, which I don't want due to possible Text Direct / textphone compatibility issues. (I have emailed the RNID to check). Although I suppose if it's the sort of LLU that only does broadband and leaves your voice service with BT, that might be OK. Then again, Plusnet is part of BT so it must be just a variant of BT infrastructure - not sure how that works...

Tech support is also important of course - when there was a problem with the BT service, dealing with the combination of MetroNet and BT was quite painful, causing a loss of service of 6 weeks or so. Not sure whether LLU is better for tech support (one company not two for most things) or worse (already using a BT ADSL service so there's less change if she stays on BT).

Generally, I would like to avoid LLU as originally stated - so... any recommendations for BT-based ISPs? Long contract is fine as long as service is good.

Edited by deleted (Mon 27-Jul-09 15:03:21)

Check out IDNET Fixed ip standard, i month contract Not the cheapest but one of the best and most reliable.

In reply to a post by paddyclark:

In a market 3 exchange - Plusnet Value would be excellent value at £5.99 a month.
but comes with an 18 month contract

And I believe SSH is rate limited permanently to 512Kbps, changing ports won't make any difference, as you know, Plusnet use deep packet inspection.

In reply to a post by Cato2:

Any suggestions very welcome!

Newnet's Home M package is worth serious consideration.

To clarify for you most LLU is broadband-only LLU. That should not affect your BT use of the line for text type at all. If I recall correctly there are only a few firms who go full-LLU which is I think: Sky, TalkTalk, Tiscali, Original Bulldog = now Tiscali, AOL?. And Virgin Media are on Cable. The plusnet discounts on certain exchanges follow because they can get a different price from BT wholesale on the most competed exchanges.

Quite a few of the others who have phone packages available are just using one of BT's wholesale options for the normal BT line. Although it would be worth checking if those would interfere with the text service.

Post deleted by Sadoldman

Thanks to everyone for the replies, they are most helpful!

Both NewNet and IDnet look like good options, since they both include a single static IP. NewNet are very good on price - can probably go for their £12/month package since the backups can be scheduled, though their off-peak window of 2am to 7am is a bit narrow. I'm using incremental backups of data only so this should be fine.

This exchange (THNU, which I found by searching on phone no) does have some LLU options including Be/O2, who sound OK though maybe not as good as IDnet/NewNet on support and reliability. Also it sounds like the Be 'unlimited usage' model is creaking, causing discussions of FUP.

Since speed doesn't matter at all in this case, I think it's going to be one of these IDnet/NewNet. Pro's and con's as I see them:

- NewNet - Home Lite ADSL2 with 3GB @ £12.67/month
- PRO: ADSL2 so no change in technology, which is probably good for reliability, and unlimited download in offpeak. Upload unlimited (is it really?)
- CON: 5 hour offpeak window, max 448 Kbps upload rate for backups,

- IDnet - Home Starter ADSL2+ with 12 GB @ £14.67/month
- PRO: More transfer allowance, probably a bit faster in both directions, upload unlimited
- CON: May be less reliable due to BT WBC issues than ADSL2?

Unlimited upload is great for backups and remote access by me, of course.

Any other comments? Something I've missed? I'm leaning towards NewNet on price and not being WBC based, but quality of tech support is really important as well.

I believe both IDnet and NewNet are non-LLU for Newbury/THNU - if they are, that's OK as long as it's a good service.

Interesting, I haven't done any speed tests but on MetroNet/Plusnet I did find a dramatic difference in SSH speed betwen 119 (unusably slow in peak times, multi-second delays to echo a single character) and 22 or 222 (both good). That implies their deep packet inspection has limits - perhaps they allocate some protocols to low priority purely on port number, and reserve DPI for certain port numbers.

The shaping on port 119 was a lot worse than 512 Kbps - more about seconds per bit than bits per second!

Edited by deleted (Tue 28-Jul-09 09:37:42)

Newnet will be on WMBC in the not too far distant future, as all BT Wholesale ISPs will have to be.

I think you are over-concerned about O2 - the Standard package would suit her fine. The faster upload would also be ideal for the backups.

You could also get her the O2 mobile phone discount if you have access to one. The phone does not have to be in the same name a, or registered to the same address as the broadband account.

I moved from Newnet to O2 Standard as the 3GB started to get too restrictive for me once iPlayer and such came along. Also many sites these days have mini-video on the home page - for example the BBC again.

The 2-7 unmetered on Newnet is not that simple. Readings are taken at hourly intervals starting at the time the user session commences. So starting an upload at 2:03 could have all the usage to 2:55 included in metered time if the user session started at 11:51 the day before. And so on.

Similarly if the session started at 11:03 then time between 6:03 and 7:03 could be included in metered, instead of the previous example.

There are complex discussions a few weeks ago in the Newnet forum.

The talk of FUP on Be may or may not be well-founded but there is no evidence of things creaking. Just the 3-monthly spell of people saying the price model is unsustainable, fuelled this time by some funny idea of community condemnation.

They seem also to be concerned about the effect on individual exchanges, rather than under-capacity at the centre. That is reasonable, as to provide additional backhaul to an exchange because of the usage of one customer would be completely ludicrous.

That isn't to say it has to ruled out due to the customer profile they probably have, but remember they are talking about people who regularly download several hundred GB per month.

There has been no mention of anything similar relating to O2 in these forums. With hindsight I shouldn't have started the thread Traffic management possibility as instead of turning into a discussion of whether some restriction may be needed on O2 it turned into a discussion of Be, and more particularly later on, the Be new web site.

This has made several people such as you think that O2 are looking at a general usage restriction. There is nothing to suggest this.

The FUP reserves the right to ask any user to moderate their behaviour. So does the the much-vaunted NO FUP claim on Sky Max. They have just moved the clause to the standard T & Cs instead!

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 28-Jul-09 09:56:45)

Bob - thanks VERY much for explaining the NewNet restrictions, I wasn't aware of that. Not really clear what a session means - is it just a period during which packets arrive without big gaps? If so, it would be hard to stay within the offpeak period. It really makes the whole offpeak almost unusable.

However, for backups NewNet might be OK, but only because the upload is unlimited.

Useful info on Be, I will have a much closer look at Be / O2. I understand the infrastructure is the same in both cases, but is it worth joining one or other service - clearly you chose O2, but are there significant differences? The mobile discount is worth knowing about - particularly the bit about not being at same address, as we do have an O2 phone in our household. Very handy.

UPDATE: I've now looked at both Be and O2 a bit more, and noticed that O2 charge almost £5/month for a static IP - however, with the mobile phone customer pricing, the total is £12.23. This is similar to NewNet but without its restrictions, and less than IDnet's £14.69. Be isn't an option here as you need to go for a Pro package at £21.50/month to get a free static IP. A bit odd that Be prices the static IP so high when quite a few ISPs include it for free.

So I'll go for O2 as long as the mobile discount thing works out.

On WBC, I know all ISPs will move to this but right now it just seems very bleeding edge, based on comments from ISPs such as IDnet and A&A.

If this forum had rep points I would give you some

Edited by deleted (Tue 28-Jul-09 21:19:13)

In reply to a post by Cato2:

Bob - thanks VERY much for explaining the NewNet restrictions, I wasn't aware of that. Not really clear what a session means - is it just a period during which packets arrive without big gaps? If so, it would be hard to stay within the offpeak period. It really makes the whole offpeak almost unusable.

On WBC, I know all ISPs will move to this but right now it just seems very bleeding edge, based on comments from ISPs such as IDnet and A&A.

If this forum had rep points I would give you some

The session basically starts at a modem/router sync event. Part of the discussion I referred to were about re-syncing either just before or after 2am, and similarly just before 7am.

WBC is not really fit for beta release never mind live roll-out.

Ta for the compliment.

Note if I haven't mentioned this it is in the full MKD document but not as obvious in the Page 4 update.

Currently O2 are giving 2 months free - ends the end of this month. Also signing up through Quidco there is £50 Cashback. (You need to register there or it doesn't work). It takes you into the normal O2 web site to order but the cookie system tracks you came from there. So make sure you delete cookies first or O2 will pick up their own cookie on your machine instead! Quidco will deduct £5 from the payment as an annual subscription.

Re the O2 mobile, if you get into the free 2 months then there is no need to organise the association of the phone with the broadband until a few days before the first actual billing date.

Edit - You don't need the MAC in order to sign up and qualify for the two offers. You can supply it when you receive it.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 28-Jul-09 23:26:00)

the ssh on port 222 I think on isps like plusnet would be in real danger of been marked as encrypted torrent traffic.

so in my opinion you need a isp that doesnt shape traffic. On BT-based services they not that cheap.

entanet funny enough maybe your best option although they have the alt system at least it doesnt protocol shape.

yea shaping has that affect, a 512kbit connection without shaping will perform far better than a 100mbit connection shaped to 512kbit, because the shaping drops packets artificially emulating packet loss.

ukonline may also be an option for you the 2 meg package.

Edited by Chrysalis (Thu 30-Jul-09 03:14:53)

It's all about how the shaping is done. What people refer to as shaping may mean almost anything. The basic idea is a queue of packets matching certain criteria, which can have a bandwidth and a priority - the problem with NNTP/119 may be that it has zero committed bandwidth and is very low priority. Packets from almost any other traffic class will take priority which at peak times means seconds for a single packet to be delivered. This can be implemented through a combination of packet dropping and buffering - if it's seconds of delay it's most likely dropping packets.

Unless the ISP documents explicitly how they are doing the shaping, and the DPI vendor does the same in freely accessible docs, it's very hard to know what's going on. QoS is complex enough without having to guess at the configuration.

In reply to a post by Cato2:

Unless the ISP documents explicitly how they are doing the shaping, and the DPI vendor does the same in freely accessible docs, it's very hard to know what's going on. QoS is complex enough without having to guess at the configuration.

Out of my depth with the technical side here, but if I understand what you are trying to do is evade the traffic shaping.

The people doing the traffic shaping are surely unlikely to publish the detailed info to help users do that?

This is not about evading shaping. I simply don't want to use port 22 for SSH as it's so commonly attacked. What I want to use is another port number that's suitable for interactive traffic.

With Plusnet, they also give port 222 the same good QoS as 22, because some firewalls use 222 for SSH. So in this case I'm just using another aspect of their existing QoS setup.

I only used port 119 originally because I thought my Netgear router didn't let me use arbitrary ports.

Apologies .

Nowadays I'm not sure you'd need the static IP so much, because things like LogMeIn (.com) will 'call home' and record the IP (even if you then use SSH to access), or Dynamic DNS (dyndns.com) which is supported by the DG834G AFAIK.

If the router isn't working, (to set the IP using DynDNS) you're not going to get very far anyway...

It might open your options considerably not to 'require' fixed IP.

Good point about the router supporting dynamic DNS, but in the past I've had problems with dynamic DNS solutions not updating quickly enough, or in some cases at all. The extra cost of a static IP is worth it if it avoids a 4 hour visit, including driving time.

I might look at this for my own setup though, as I can monitor it more closely while trying it out.

Just for completeness - I am going with O2 because:

- LLU seems better than going for ADSL Max now, and a WBC upgrade in next 6-12 months - only one upgrade to sort out
- they provide a static IP (but I can drop it if DynDNS works well enough)
- the mobile phone discount
- unlimited usage
- Quidco savings and 2 months free (till 6th Aug)

This relative's usage will be very low (she's on a 200 MB transfer at moment and almost never goes over it - that's MB not GB) but not having to worry about usage, particularly for remote backups, will be a plus.

In reply to a post by Cato2:

It should be fine .

Let us know how things go.