Moving out into the country, ISP advice?

Moving out into the sticks next month and am a little worried about my broadband options, the exchange has no LLU or BT Infinity and Virgin cable isn't available either!

I am currently with BE and although I only get 4mb download, upload is good at 1mb and the service is pretty stable. Unfortunately BE isn't available in my new area so time for a new ISP. Here's a list of available options in the area, I know to steer clear of Sky Connect but haven't got a clue about any of the others so any advice would be very welcome!

http://www.broadband.co.uk/checker/postcode:MK18+4NN

Exchange info:
http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/SMFI

The main question is how much do you download and upload per month, and at what times of day, particularly Monday-Friday. Are you a gamer?

Do you have an absolute maximum you are willing to pay for the broadband? Don't forget there will be line rental as well. We have to find the best balance for you between capacity, latency and cost .

As well as avoiding Sky Connect, steer well clear of O2 Access and TalkTalk.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The main question is how much do you download and upload per month, and at what times of day, particularly Monday-Friday. Are you a gamer?

Do you have an absolute maximum you are willing to pay for the broadband? Don't forget there will be line rental as well. We have to find the best balance for you between capacity, latency and cost .

As well as avoiding Sky Connect, steer well clear of O2 Access and TalkTalk.

Hi roberto I remember you being very helpful when I moved to BE last year!

Anyway in answer to your questions:

Used to paying £17 pm for BE on top of my line rental and was happy to pay that for the good service, so would be okay with that figure again if I could get similar performance.

Online Gaming - a hour or so every night, maybe longer at weekends.

Downloads - no heavy streaming, but quite a lot of email due to working from home a few days a week. Nature of business also requires a bit of uploading to FTP, I guess 100-150 mb average a week. Other than that I would say 2-3 hours browsing a night between an iPad and laptop.

I find BTs products hard to beat on a market one exchange if you want unlimited.

Every BT connection I've used has been able to stream iPlayer, youtube etc fine during peak times. Browsing seems fairly quick and the homehub seems a very stable piece of kit.

Peer to peer is definitely hit and miss. Some people on BT see great p2p speeds whilst others are terrible. I think it's all dependant on congestion in your area whether it's throttled lots or not much.

John Lewis have a nice broadband package out also right now. Worth a look at.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Tue 10-Jul-12 01:32:39)

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

I find BTs products hard to beat on a market one exchange if you want unlimited.

Every BT connection I've used has been able to stream iPlayer, youtube etc fine during peak times. Browsing seems fairly quick and the homehub seems a very stable piece of kit.

Peer to peer is definitely hit and miss. Some people on BT see great p2p speeds whilst others are terrible. I think it's all dependant on congestion in your area whether it's throttled lots or not much.

John Lewis have a nice broadband package out also right now. Worth a look at.

Thanks, just had a look at the JL package which seems interesting.

Just so I understand correctly, as there is no LLU at my exchange will I receive the same performance/service regardless of which ISP I go with? i.e will BT be the same as JL so just go for the cheapest cost option?

Also will paying for unlimited give you a less throttled service or is it exactly the same as a limited package? I don't think I need unlimited but if it means better performance then I would pay the extra.

In reply to a post by BobbyD:

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

I find BTs products hard to beat on a market one exchange if you want unlimited.

Every BT connection I've used has been able to stream iPlayer, youtube etc fine during peak times. Browsing seems fairly quick and the homehub seems a very stable piece of kit.

Peer to peer is definitely hit and miss. Some people on BT see great p2p speeds whilst others are terrible. I think it's all dependant on congestion in your area whether it's throttled lots or not much.

John Lewis have a nice broadband package out also right now. Worth a look at.

Thanks, just had a look at the JL package which seems interesting.

Just so I understand correctly, as there is no LLU at my exchange will I receive the same performance/service regardless of which ISP I go with? i.e will BT be the same as JL so just go for the cheapest cost option?

Also will paying for unlimited give you a less throttled service or is it exactly the same as a limited package? I don't think I need unlimited but if it means better performance then I would pay the extra.

It doesn't quite work like that. I'm not entirely sure of every little detail of the process. RobertoS will have a better understanding at this...
The way I understand it is that each ISP pays for x amount of backhaul. They then share this with x amount of customers...

BT may buy say for example a 1gbps link and share this with 1000 people.
ADSL24 may buy a 1gbps link and share it with 100 people.

With regards to throttling it's very often a case of being area dependant. If there's loads of users of peer to peer in your area and it's slowing things down considerably they will throttle it lots. If your area has lots of capacity & very few peer to peer users they are less likely to throttle.

Every ISP is different though. I know BT generally operate dynamic throttling (the type mentioned above) between 4pm and midnight.

Also looking at your postcode I'd expect between 4 and 8 mbps but that's a guesstimate.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Tue 10-Jul-12 11:45:41)

Unlimited is likely to give you a more throttled service if the only offerings are over BT's network (i.e. not LLU or cable).

If your monthly usage is under 10GB (or you can make use of unlimited overnight downloads to keep under 10GB), Plusnet's Value package is hard to beat (but don't forget they count uploads and downloads). Their Extra with it's 60GB allowance is also a strong contender. Gaming is prioritised on all Plusnet products.

According to the exchange info it's serving 974 premises and I imagine a good portion of this is old village folk so not a whole lot of online gaming going on I imagine

For me gaming performance is quite high up on the priority list, I'm not too fussed about downloading movies, big files etc. A good upload speed would be a bonus as I'm currently use to BE's 1mb.

Until I move there I guess there is no way of finding out what p2p performance or throttling will be like?

Upload speed options depend upon whether your exchange is 20CN or has been upgraded to 21CN. If 21CN you can get upload of up to around 1Mb depending upon how far you are from the exchange. If you are on 20CN your only option is to upgrade to Max Premium which will give you an upload of 832 kbps - Plusnet charge £7.83 per month (which is pretty much what BT charge them) for this option. The other advantage of Max Premium is that it gives you a higher priority on the BT network.

Samknows says no WBC. (@OP. In case you don't know, that's the correct title for 21CN Broadband).

In reply to a post by jelv:

Upload speed options depend upon whether your exchange is 20CN or has been upgraded to 21CN. If 21CN you can get upload of up to around 1Mb depending upon how far you are from the exchange. If you are on 20CN your only option is to upgrade to Max Premium which will give you an upload of 832 kbps - Plusnet charge £7.83 per month (which is pretty much what BT charge them) for this option. The other advantage of Max Premium is that it gives you a higher priority on the BT network.

looks like exchange is not 21CN. I knew moving into the country was a bad idea

So without paying the extra for Max Prem what upload speeds can I expect, is it really bad?

It doesn't quite work like that. I'm not entirely sure of every little detail of the process. RobertoS will have a better understanding at this...
The way I understand it is that each ISP pays for x amount of backhaul. They then share this with x amount of customers...

BT may buy say for example a 1gbps link and share this with 1000 people.
ADSL24 may buy a 1gbps link and share it with 100 people.

I'd say that was a fair description for the OP's purposes .

Just to clarify a bit, the link referred to is between the BT Wholesale backhaul and the ISP's routers at their end. The exchange size is usually less relevant.

The way the calculation is done is on the lines of so many kbps throughput per customer, and multiplying that by the actual or expected number of customers. It can be as low as 150kbps for the likes of "out of area" Sky/TT/O2, to several hundred kbps for decent ISPs. LLU Sky/TT/O2 of course are at the high end.

Those sound like very low numbers, but you have to think what proportion of customers are online at any point in time, and what they are doing.

Streaming on a decent connection is significant, as it far exceeeds the budget figure for the customer. So the Olympics could be very dodgy, when a lot of people will be doing that. Browsing doesn't use much, and most page changes only take a fraction of a second. (Most of the time is your browser working out how to present it). Then a fair pause before you move to another. Gaming uses very little, but many accesses in quick succession. Apart from game updates, which are streaming.

This is why P2P gets throttled by many ISPs. Let's assume a budgetted figure of 300kbps per punter.

100 people downloading at 15Mbps = 1,500,000kbs being used continuously. With no P2P that supports 5000 punters browsing.

On Max its up to 448Kbps, so speed tests in the 350 to 370Kbps area.

Plenty for gaming with voice.

Andrew

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

It doesn't quite work like that. I'm not entirely sure of every little detail of the process. RobertoS will have a better understanding at this...
The way I understand it is that each ISP pays for x amount of backhaul. They then share this with x amount of customers...

BT may buy say for example a 1gbps link and share this with 1000 people.
ADSL24 may buy a 1gbps link and share it with 100 people.

I'd say that was a fair description for the OP's purposes .

Just to clarify a bit, the link referred to is between the BT Wholesale backhaul and the ISP's routers at their end. The exchange size is usually less relevant.

The way the calculation is done is on the lines of so many kbps throughput per customer, and multiplying that by the actual or expected number of customers. It can be as low as 150kbps for the likes of "out of area" Sky/TT/O2, to several hundred kbps for decent ISPs. LLU Sky/TT/O2 of course are at the high end.

Those sound like very low numbers, but you have to think what proportion of customers are online at any point in time, and what they are doing.

Streaming on a decent connection is significant, as it far exceeeds the budget figure for the customer. So the Olympics could be very dodgy, when a lot of people will be doing that. Browsing doesn't use much, and most page changes only take a fraction of a second. (Most of the time is your browser working out how to present it). Then a fair pause before you move to another. Gaming uses very little, but many accesses in quick succession. Apart from game updates, which are streaming.

This is why P2P gets throttled by many ISPs. Let's assume a budgetted figure of 300kbps per punter.

100 people downloading at 15Mbps = 1,500,000kbs being used continuously. With no P2P that supports 5000 punters browsing.

thanks for the explanation but how do I know or decide which is the best ISP for my needs? or is it just a guessing game?

I'd say it all comes down to the factors about which you can do nothing, ie distance from the exchange and quality of the copper on that distance. Where we are (SG8 5RT) the lines are as bad as tin cans and string. Have you been able to do a speed test or estimate masquerading as the current phone number of the property?

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

I'd say it all comes down to the factors about which you can do nothing, ie distance from the exchange and quality of the copper on that distance. Where we are (SG8 5RT) the lines are as bad as tin cans and string. Have you been able to do a speed test or estimate masquerading as the current phone number of the property?

haven't been able to do a speed test as the old tenants are still there. Is my best option just to go with BT for phone and BB and pray that one day in the future Infinity will be installed?

haven't been able to do a speed test as the old tenants are still there. Is my best option just to go with BT for phone and BB and pray that one day in the future Infinity will be installed?

You could, but it may be a long shot and there is a long tie-in. My village serves 2,500 properties, a few of which are massive factories and there is little hope of fibre here in the sticks.
There are other providers with no tie in and low latency for gaming.

To get the 832kbps upstream with BT you would need BT Business broadband. You are allowed to have that on a residential line, no problem.

If you look into that, don't forget business prices at BT and most other places are ex vat.

In reply to a post by professor973:

haven't been able to do a speed test as the old tenants are still there. Is my best option just to go with BT for phone and BB and pray that one day in the future Infinity will be installed?

You could, but it may be a long shot and there is a long tie-in. My village serves 2,500 properties, a few of which are massive factories and there is little hope of fibre here in the sticks.
There are other providers with no tie in and low latency for gaming.

How do I find out which providers offer low latency? Lots of good advice in this thread but I'm still none the wiser on which ISP to go for.

How do I find out which providers offer low latency? Lots of good advice in this thread but I'm still none the wiser on which ISP to go for.

It is difficult to know until you are signed up to an ISP, along with it being something that can vary throughout the day. That is why one with no contract tie-in and a reputation for good customer service is as good starting point as any. I would think that knowing you can leave with just a months notice, might be an incentive to deliver a good service.

Edited by professor973 (Tue 10-Jul-12 20:55:02)

Okay so my main priorities are good upload speed and gaming performance. So is BT business my best option? How about Zen? I don't know much about them as an ISP.

Second question is I need to get this set up as soon as possible after I move in so will BT be able to get me up and running quicker than anyone else?

In reply to a post by BobbyD:

Second question is I need to get this set up as soon as possible after I move in so will BT be able to get me up and running quicker than anyone else?

Most decent ISPs can organise a Simultaneous Provide, (SIM), so that both occur on the same day. This process is not 100% reliable but usually works.

For a SIM, the phone line and broadband do not need to be from the same supplier, but if they aren't then both have to be operating the system.

It works by the phone supplier ordering from Openreach and requesting a Linked Order Number (LORN). If you aren't ordering the broadband from them, they should supply you with that LORN. When you order the broadband from the other supplier you give them that LORN and request a SIM. They pass that LORN to BT Wholesale/Openreach along with their broadband order. Openreach should then pick up the link and schedule accordingly.

Obviously if both are provided by the same company, they should be able to handle the LORN internally without you knowing about it.

I believe BT Retail can do SIMs. I don't know about Zen.

Whichever ISP you go with, the changeover and what you get down the copper will be about the same, subject to contention, it is B.T. Openreach that switch things over whoever you go with.
So the bottom line is, you need to find someone that delivers what you want in terms of contract length, throttling of certain services, with customer services reputation possibly being most important, as all services are pretty much alike, but it is how problems are sorted that usually pleases or ruffles a few feathers .
Despite my line and calls being with Zen, I cannot comment personally on their Broadband service as I am with Freeola, but the customer service I get from them as a phone user is very good. Others regard them highly and they have just taken the Which? Broadband award for the 13th year. They don't do throttling. http://www.zen.co.uk/latest-news.aspx?page=11430 and with no tie-in, it is easy to check out and move on if it doesn't suit.

In January I moved (totally different exchange in a different part of the country).

My phone is with BT and broadband with Plusnet. Getting the number out of BT was an issue (because I had two phone lines at the old house), Plusnet were straight forward.

On the day it went perfectly, both working the day I moved in.

In reply to a post by jelv:

In January I moved (totally different exchange in a different part of the country).

My phone is with BT and broadband with Plusnet. Getting the number out of BT was an issue (because I had two phone lines at the old house), Plusnet were straight forward.

On the day it went perfectly, both working the day I moved in.

so can you order phone and BB well in advance of the move in date even though the old tenants will be using that phone line up till the moving day?

I'm not sure about that. The property I moved in to was standing empty.

What I do know is that simultaneous provide has to be ordered at least a week in advance, so I'd suggest you make your mind up who you are going to use and start talking to them as soon as your move date is confirmed.