From BE (O2/Telefonica, soon Sky) to... where?

Hi guys,

This will be a bit longer read and I apologise in advance

After BT failed us with decreasing DSL quality and speed (from ~7mbit down to under 2mbit, gradually) we went for BE, who promised much better speeds. Initially there were a number of problems with stability of the line and router, but eventually that got resolved, and we've been seeing ~14mbit down and ~2mbit up since (on the very same copper line, by the way, which according to BT wasn't capable of more than the speeds they provided in the end before we switched to BE)

I was not pleased with BE's customer service, which seems like a bunch of nerdy teenagers to me and not very professional, but it was working okay and I didn't want to take chances by switching.

Then, around spring last year, connectivity to certain destinations (most notably the BBC, especially iPlayer) got very flaky. BE first apologised for hardware problems, then blamed the BBC doing major maintenance on their networks, then again promised to resolve it within the next few months (we've all seen the misleading and conflicting statements of BE on their own blog and elsewhere I believe).

Sad truth is, it's still not resolved. For a select few destinations, Telefonica's routing (who back O2/BE) is messed up. It's easy to verify that by running long traceroutes (couple of minutes), during which the routing within Telefonica would change a number of times, and the number of hops per route does too.
Now, I'm familiar with IP routing and failover and all that, but the fact that the number of hops and the routes change so frequently, while entry and exit points to Telefonica remain the same, could indicate some serious congestion on a regular basis. That explains the packet loss (5-10% depending on time of day) to some destinations which pass Telefonica's network.

Long story short, as Sky is taking over some point later this year (and they bought Telefonica), I'm tempted to change providers before hand.

For some weird reason everybody else on this street (even the neighbours upstairs) can have Fibre (Virgin and EE), while we cannot. I don't know if there's an actual technical reason for that, or if that's just an oversight and the providers' availability checkers (and customer service drones using them) are just not up to date.

So the best course of option would be to find an ISP who does not rely on Telefonica or BT Wholesale. Would EE broadband (not fibre) be such an ISP?

Ideally I'd like to have ~16mbit again, with stable ping (though it doesn't matter if it's stable 20ms or 70ms, to be honest, as long as there aren't massive peaks), and of course without the annoying packet loss.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks!

In reply to a post by lucifah:

So the best course of option would be to find an ISP who does not rely on Telefonica or BT Wholesale. Would EE broadband (not fibre) be such an ISP?

No, EE uses BTw as does Plusnet. However the is nowt wrong with BTw ADSL as long as your exchange is 21CN WBC enabled.

Post your current router stats. What is your exchange?

What does https://www.dslchecker.bt.com/pls/adsl/adslchecker.w... estimate for your line? Just post the table.

Unlike some others than sell O2 Wholesale services, we do have our premium services, they can use the same LLU equipment in the exchange so the sync etc would be the same, but we do not use O2 backhaul at all, so you would not see the routing issues you are currently getting.

Hi, thanks for your reply.

I've pulled together the router stats and the table.

Not sure how to embed pictures on this forum. Here are links to them:
http://imgeasy.com/images/5nkiw.png
http://imgeasy.com/images/4sVbl.png

If you need anything else let me know, and I'll try to provide it.

I do wonder why the BT DSL quality went down so badly though (which prompted us to change to BE). I do not want to risk ending up with a fraction of the DSL speed again by changing back to BTw, as you can imagine.

The exchange is only a few hundred metres away, I believe. Not sure what its name is, and I am not comfortable posting accurate postcodes on forums. It's somewhere in E10, if that helps.

Thanks.

In reply to a post by lucifah:

So the best course of option would be to find an ISP who does not rely on Telefonica or BT Wholesale. Would EE broadband (not fibre) be such an ISP?

Ideally I'd like to have ~16mbit again, with stable ping (though it doesn't matter if it's stable 20ms or 70ms, to be honest, as long as there aren't massive peaks), and of course without the annoying packet loss.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks!

EE/Orange broadband is on the BT Wholesale network 21CN WBC 20 Mbps speed if you have it at your exchange. I find the broadband is great for the price.

In reply to a post by E7er:

EE/Orange broadband is on the BT Wholesale network 21CN WBC 20 Mbps speed if you have it at your exchange.

How can I find out if that's the case?

Thanks!

Look up your exchange with samknows it will tell you if you have BT 21CN WBC there.

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange_search

Use the ADSL and ADSL2+ line speed calculator for expected speed.

http://www.coolwebhome.co.uk/calc/calculator.php

In reply to a post by lucifah:

... as Sky is taking over some point later this year (and they bought Telefonica) ....

Errrr, no?

Telefonica are a rather large Telco originating in Spain. They bought Be and O2 a few years back, and have now sold the landline phone and broadband operations to Sky.

The O2 mobile phone network/operation is still Telefonica and nothing at all to do with Sky.

Yes you're right, RobertoS. I meant to say more precisely: "Sky bought O2/BE broadband from Telefonica"
And my concern is that this includes their rotten infrastructure (in my case for said destinations anyway)

Edited by deleted (Wed 15-May-13 17:36:35)

Thanks for the links E7er!

In reply to a post by lucifah:

How can I find out if that's the case?

You already have! It's the 2nd line, WBC ADSL2+, in that BTw table you got.

Doh! Thanks. Following E7er's links, I've got the belt and braces style result now

So, back to my initial question (hidden in the wall of text, I admit): Would you guys be able to recommend any providers (providers please refrain from sending offers; I prefer customer feedback)?

Or maybe more specifically:

- can EE be recommended? (I'm t-mobile customer, for whatever it's worth)
- do EE offer static IPs, and if not, who does? (Ideally I'd need one static IP for work reasons)

Thanks!

EE can be fast and reliable, as it is for me, but there are too many reports of them mishandling the line and their CS is awful. No Statics either.

Yor best bet is Plusnet over BTw's WBC ADSL2+. They do Statics. Good support, good price.

I second Plusnet as you need a static IP address for work.

http://www.plus.net/info2/legal/price_guide.html

Thanks XRay and E7er. Just one more question (sorry if it's a stupid one):

How do I know at the time of switching that they will use this shiny WBC thing and not connect me to something else, maybe cheaper, in the exchange? I want to avoid that I end up with the terrible performance that I once experienced with BT in this household.

Oh, and how long does the switch usually take? Do I have to expect long downtimes?


Thanks a lot, again!

As WBC is there they'll use it and we will be able to conform from your router stats.

Switching should take no more than an hour or two. Could even be a few mins.

I am honestly confused. Essentially BT gave you bad service so if you choose plusnet EE etc you are going to get the same service as you did on BT (which we know was bad). The technology has changed a little but ultimately it's the same as what BT currently use.

Sky is fine. They have ok customer services and generally they give a good connection. Hold off, stop jumping the gun and see what happens. Sky is LLU so you wont be via BTs systems and you might find it's all fine and dandy. If it's not then make a move although I'm sure sky will resolve any issues you have.

Also you never have a problem with routing or anything like that on Sky. The network works wonderfully.

But that was years ago. For all we know OP was then on 20CN ADSL Max going from his speed and its behaviour. Now WBC will run a line on 3dB NM if it is stable enough.

WBC is actually cheaper for the isp than the older equipment.

So if WBC is available thats the preffered choice for an isp.