A weird one.

I have an MSI P35 board with an E8400 Dual Core CPU. I'm running XP Pro SP3 on two machines the other one is a Foxcon 946 with an E2180 CPU. The both run Nod32 and on a Tuesday run an in depth scan overnight. When I come to use the P35 it is very sluggish the next morning after the scan but the 946 is fine. Also whenever I do any disk intensive work on the P35 like a backup or using a VMware machine the P35 becomes sluggish but CPU use is low about 3%.

Both machines have 2 Gb of memory (667 DDR2) and about 3 Gig of virtual memory. Any ideas why the P35 is sluggish after disk intensive operations?

TBH, it's sounds like a 'guess the problem' issue.

I'd start with a disk cleanup, check and defrag to just rule those out.

Then look to possible differences with the other system. Try:

Write caching - Device Manager / Properties of drive / Policies

Memory & swapfile in use

Indexing service in use or not

NOD32 settings etc.

Anything that differentiates one system from the other.

Also drive types, cache onboard, SATA vs SATA2 etc.

After all that, I'd be looking at which programs seem sluggish...e.g. if it's a browser, it might be the network cable, or if it's a specific game, I'd look at hardware and drivers.


I know I'm just throwing out ideas, but it all helps.

In reply to a post by Banger:

I have an MSI P35 board with an E8400 Dual Core CPU. I'm running XP Pro SP3 on two machines the other one is a Foxcon 946 with an E2180 CPU. The both run Nod32 and on a Tuesday run an in depth scan overnight. When I come to use the P35 it is very sluggish the next morning after the scan but the 946 is fine. Also whenever I do any disk intensive work on the P35 like a backup or using a VMware machine the P35 becomes sluggish but CPU use is low about 3%.

Both machines have 2 Gb of memory (667 DDR2) and about 3 Gig of virtual memory. Any ideas why the P35 is sluggish after disk intensive operations?

Checked you have the latest sata and or chipset drivers for the p35....

In reply to a post by Banger:

I have an MSI P35 board with an E8400 Dual Core CPU. I'm running XP Pro SP3 on two machines the other one is a Foxcon 946 with an E2180 CPU. The both run Nod32 and on a Tuesday run an in depth scan overnight. When I come to use the P35 it is very sluggish the next morning after the scan but the 946 is fine. Also whenever I do any disk intensive work on the P35 like a backup or using a VMware machine the P35 becomes sluggish but CPU use is low about 3%.

Both machines have 2 Gb of memory (667 DDR2) and about 3 Gig of virtual memory. Any ideas why the P35 is sluggish after disk intensive operations?

Sounds most likely software related, if that makes you feel any better . I think camie's things would be the first to check out!

Also take the oppertunity to uninstall everything you don't actually need (toolbars, things which run in the background, etc).

Edited by Pipexer (Thu 19-Mar-09 18:02:42)

That's the weird thing Camie I defrag every week but after a defrag all programs are slow to start, they are fine once they get going. I've set up the two machine almost identically both using the same page file size, the only real difference is the sluggish one has VMware on it. Recently after upgrading VMware I couldn't access the machine so I did a re-install, but no difference.

Any big file operations like a Nod32 scan, defrag, a backup cause all programs to be slow to open. Once they get going they are fine. It's not a big deal but was wondering why a more recent motherboard would be like this compared to a cheaper older chipset.

Checked you have the latest sata and or chipset drivers for the p35....

I downloaded the latest Chipset drivers from Intel when I did a re-install, V9.

Sounds most likely software related, if that makes you feel any better smile. I think camie's things would be the first to check out!

Also take the oppertunity to uninstall everything you don't actually need (toolbars, things which run in the background, etc).

I steer clear of toolbars etc. Both machines are running virtually the same software except for VMWare on the E8400. Keep drivers up to date using PC Pitstop Driver Scanner. Only seems sluggish after intensive disk activity like a Virus Scan, Defrag or backup. Eg. like now everything is running really fast, but if I do a whole disk virus scan things will be slow to open again but eventually after a while will become really fast again. Told you it was a weird one

After installing VMWare on my machine I noticed bootup took a fair bit longer, VMWare has a fair few background processes and services running even when VMware isn't open- perhaps thats one to check?

How would I check that, you mean uninstall and compare ?

In reply to a post by Banger:

How would I check that, you mean uninstall and compare ?

I am no VMware expert but that would be the route I would probably take

You could disable all its startup processes in msconfig but i'm not sure whether that will get rid of the network services it runs in the background - you could always check first then uninstall if it isn't too much trouble for you.

It probably won't be the cause but I definately have noticed three times now after installing VMware bootup time increases more than it should be doing

In reply to a post by Banger:

Sounds most likely software related, if that makes you feel any better smile. I think camie's things would be the first to check out!

Also take the oppertunity to uninstall everything you don't actually need (toolbars, things which run in the background, etc).

I steer clear of toolbars etc. Both machines are running virtually the same software except for VMWare on the E8400. Keep drivers up to date using PC Pitstop Driver Scanner. Only seems sluggish after intensive disk activity like a Virus Scan, Defrag or backup. Eg. like now everything is running really fast, but if I do a whole disk virus scan things will be slow to open again but eventually after a while will become really fast again. Told you it was a weird one

Have you compared memory usage before and after running the disk scans etc? Running a backup or defrag will put a big load on your AV so I wonder if uninstalling or disabling NOD32 temporalily might be worth a go (before faffing with vmware) ?

Although that would lead to longer boot times I can't see why it should produce the behaviour described. I run VmWare (coincidently on PCs with a P35 motherboard and a Foxconn one) and don't see this sort of behaviour. Certainly just stopping all the VmWare services should be enough to test if the problem lies there.

It sounds to me like extremely slow transfer rates from the hard disk, for some reason. Any disk intensive activity will flush all the disk buffers and probably page out many running programs. The programs will then seem to be slow in loading, if the transfer rate is slow, until they and/or their directory entries are back in the various caches and the dlls that they use are reloaded. An easy way to check would be to do some benchmarks on the disks on the two machines using SiSoftware Sandra or something similar. In fact, doing full benchmarks of all the hardware on the two systems should give some clues as to where the problem lies.

Have you checked to see that the disk driver is using DMA or one of the higher PIO modes? Also, are there any excessively large directories on the slow machine? This used to cause slowdowns with FAT disks - I'm not sure if this is also true of NTFS but it seems logical that it would be.

Have you compared memory usage before and after running the disk scans etc? Running a backup or defrag will put a big load on your AV so I wonder if uninstalling or disabling NOD32 temporalily might be worth a go (before faffing with vmware) ?

Ok some ideas to play with. I had a feeling that when running a scan it was using up memory and other things were running from the page file that's why they were slow. But I thought 2 Gb would be more than enough, even tried turning off the page file but only a slight difference.

Memory use and cpu use stay pretty much the same during disk use, could the vmware memory manager cause this? Tried googling for this problem but nothing came up.

Have you checked to see that the disk driver is using DMA or one of the higher PIO modes? Also, are there any excessively large directories on the slow machine? This used to cause slowdowns with FAT disks - I'm not sure if this is also true of NTFS but it seems logical that it would be.

Yes disks are using DMA. There is one folder with 8GB of music and Win 7 folder with vmware machine split into 2 gb files totalling 15 gb. The slowdown also occurs when I save my Win 7 machine (suspend) and vmware is releasing the memory. I have a toolbar which shows constant memory use and as I see it ticking up as vmware is releasing memory sudden quick releases slow down what I am doing like browsing with firefox. I mean it's only seconds as memory is released from the virtual machine but enough to slow down firefox scrolling.

Sorry - I wasn't clear. By "big" I meant large number of small files (hence large number of directory entries to search and to cache) rather than small number of large files.

At least you're getting more response here than on Tom's Hardware - even if you're no nearer the cause yet.

My VmWare is VmWare server 2.0 running under XP64 on the P35 machine (an MSI motherboard) and 64-bit Linux on the Foxconn machine (that's anAMD processor). On neither of these do I see the behaviour that you describe.

I'm using VMWare Workstation 6.5.1 on XP Pro 32 bit. I just tried ending all vmware tasks then running a virus scan and programs seem to respond slightly faster so it could be vmware. Another thought occurred to me, with having an E8400 with a 6 meg cache could it be that some programs are sitting in the cache ready for use, ie. instant then when I run a scan the cache is filled with data from the disk from the virus scan. Then after a while the cache gets filled again with programs so instant access is back. Any thoughts?

It's not Vmware. Uninstalled it and same effect although some apps opened slightly faster and the virus scan was 2 minutes faster. Maybe I will have to put up with this niggle.

I wouldn't have thought that processor cache was the problem here. It definitely sounds as if its related to the disk subsystem.

Another thought occurs. It is possible that your Page File, Registry, and/or MFT are badly fragmented? Any of these could well cause the symptoms you describe. The standard Windows defragmenter won't touch any of these files.

Page file and registry hives can be defragmented with the PageDefrag tool from SysInternals. MFT is a little more tricky; I use a copy of PerfectDisk that came on a cover disk. I notice that there is a trial copy of this software available. Might be worth a look.

Also, if you've not done so already, it would be worth running a registry cleaner to get rid of any crud. CCleaner is highly regarded.

I run JkDefragGUI on a regular basis which also cleans temp files and reloads and optimizes registry and page file, so not so sure on that theory.

I think it's definitely related to memory and/or page file as when Vmware is releasing memory to disk it sort of stutters while being used, have tried this several times. NOD32 when scanning simulates virus actions on packed files into memory so when it's finished programs have to regain memory use.

I did run CCleaner and it really hasn't made any difference, I did come across a person suffering similar symptoms on the MSI board here but he never finished the topic. Plus he was also running SATA which removes the IDE interface from the equation. He was blaming the chipset.

Plus he was also running SATA which removes the IDE interface from the equation.

I'd missed the fact that you are using the IDE interface. If your MSI board is similar to mine it's got only one IDE interface (and that's a pretty non-standard one; I had all sorts of problems installing Linux because it - Linux - wouldn't recognize the CD drive). Do you have an optical drive as well? If so is it sharing the IDE interface? - that's known to slow hard disks dramatically.

I know that money is hard to find, but you really would be better off buying a new SATA drive - cheap as chips nowadays. They're much more efficient than IDE ones.

Does your defrag software also defrag the MFT? If your disk is IDE it's probably been in use for a while (unless you formatted it recently) so it's quite possible that the MFT is fragmented. This would certainly slow things down as it stores all sorts of information about the locations of directories and files.

Two drives on the IDE and their both still in warranty so wont be upgrading just yet. DVD writer is on the SATA port. Besides the other chap was using SATA HDD and noticed the same slow down but he never came back to update the thread.

MFT is in 2 fragments, checking last log.

I give up!

Yes I'm about to too, I'm just changing memory use from Programs to System Cache in XP setup to see if that makes any difference but don't hold out much hope.

A final thought - which you've probably thought about already - try playing about with swap file settings. Fixed size (recommended - latest recommendation is to make it the same size as your RAM) try it all on one disk, all on the other disk, split between the two. Probably won't make any difference, but what else have you got to try?

In reply to a post by Banger:

Yes I'm about to too, I'm just changing memory use from Programs to System Cache in XP setup to see if that makes any difference but don't hold out much hope.

Have you tried removing AV?

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

In reply to a post by Banger:

Yes I'm about to too, I'm just changing memory use from Programs to System Cache in XP setup to see if that makes any difference but don't hold out much hope.

Have you tried removing AV?

Saving Settings and trying that now. Slight improvement using system cache when closing a virtual machine.

Well I thought I'd cracked it removing Nod32, but after opening and closing a virtual machine 3 times the problem was back although the system seems much more responsive. Have also moved the paging file to the first partition on the second hard disk as I read this should speed things up. The stall is hardly noticeable when memory is being released from the virtual machine, it gradually ticks over releasing memory, but if there is a big jump that's when the stall occurs.

eg. memory is about 500 mb unused -> close machine -> memory ticks up to about 900 mb free -> then memory jumps to 1200 free and this is when other programs stall.

Edit: Re-installed nod32 and excluded the virtual machine folders from real time scanning and now memory is released instantly eg close machine 500 mb -> 1300 free so not got time to notice any stall, this is doin me head in.

2nd Edit: have played with settings in vmware including "do not swap out memory to page file" which I didn't know was a default setting seems slightly better.

Edited by Banger (Fri 20-Mar-09 23:13:37)

In reply to a post by Banger:

Well I thought I'd cracked it removing Nod32, but after opening and closing a virtual machine 3 times the problem was back although the system seems much more responsive. Have also moved the paging file to the first partition on the second hard disk as I read this should speed things up. The stall is hardly noticeable when memory is being released from the virtual machine, it gradually ticks over releasing memory, but if there is a big jump that's when the stall occurs.

eg. memory is about 500 mb unused -> close machine -> memory ticks up to about 900 mb free -> then memory jumps to 1200 free and this is when other programs stall.

Edit: Re-installed nod32 and excluded the virtual machine folders from real time scanning and now memory is released instantly eg close machine 500 mb -> 1300 free so not got time to notice any stall, this is doin me head in.

2nd Edit: have played with settings in vmware including "do not swap out memory to page file" which I didn't know was a default setting seems slightly better.

Time for a reformat maybe ?

A very long shot but try restoring optimized defaults in your bios (you may have to change your SATA mode to what it was if it resets to AHCI/RAID)

Edited by Pipexer (Sun 22-Mar-09 19:31:37)