Why are Windows initial permissions garbage?

I imagine this is a FAQ that has been answered many times , but searching could be a long process.

When I installed Vista the installation set up user Bob with Admin priviledge. Fine. That's what I want. My new WIN 7 has done the same.

But on both, and IIRC on XP before Vista, I go in with Windows Explorer, and get as far as Bob >> Documents. But then click on My Pictures or My Videos or My Music, which are the folders automatically set up, and it tells me I don't have permission to access them.

Easily fixed I know, by going in and cascading the permissions from "Bob", which I did on the earlier ones, but what is happening? It can't be normal else every Windows user in the would would have come up against it and I'm sure there would have been a stink by now.

That's not normal. A user should have permission to his own folders.

What does confuse some people is that the Administrator doesn't, by default, have access to other users folders. But this makes sense to me as it means that an Administrator can't access another user's private data without them being aware of the fact.

This is not normal and I've never ever seen an instance of that that happen either.

Could you perhaps describe in more detail exactly what you are doing? Are you performing migrations or something?

That's not normal *3. All my users, Admins & Limited, have full permission for all their own Documents folders on both XP & Vista. Also Admins have full permissions to everyone else's Documents folders.

I'm a great one for manipulating permissions, but I've never touched anyone's Documents folders, honest guv!

Contrary to what the other 3 posters say, this is completely normal.. The folders were associated with Bob on Vista and are now associated with Bob on Win 7. While the username may be the same, the userid, which is what Windows uses internally, is different. Because Bob is an Administrator, you can override the original ownership.. Unfortunately, I don't know of a way around this - I have seen it a few times in the past.

I thought Robert was talking about a new install, and new folders. But even if it's an upgrade the user's GUID should be preserved by the upgrade process. The situation that you describe only happens when you try to recreate a user ID.

In reply to a post by Spasch:

Contrary to what the other 3 posters say, this is completely normal..

No it is not. If you do an upgrade, this should not occur as the username are transferred across retaining their SID and thus permission and user accounts are the same, if you upgrade from Windows Vista to Windows 7, you do NOT have to go recreating permissions which were there on vista.

This can happen using 3rd party backup and restore programs which carried the file permissions across, indeed, but this is not mentioned in the original post.

Edited by Pipexer (Thu 21-Jul-11 21:21:35)

Just replying to the latest post, to clarify things, as there are several on the same track.

This is a virgin install on the Win 7 machine, just using the automatic configuration the first switch-on triggers. The only reason for mentioning the Vista machine was that I had exactly the same problem, and on re-installs.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

That's not normal *3. All my users, Admins & Limited, have full permission for all their own Documents folders on both XP & Vista. Also Admins have full permissions to everyone else's Documents folders.

I'm a great one for manipulating permissions, but I've never touched anyone's Documents folders, honest guv!

The permissions appear to be correct, but access is still denied. It's almost as though I'm not being recognised as me via one path, but accepted via another.

But - more to come, as I have found something very odd.

Hmm. What path exactly is it you are trying to open?

My Pictures, for example, should be C:\Users\BoB\Pictures assuming installed onto C (and yes before anyone says I am aware %systemdrive% could also be used).

So to clarify

-Fresh install of Windows 7 on clean drive
-Create user "Bob" during OOBE
-Log on as Bob
-Start > My Computer > Local Disk C > Users > Bob > "My Pictures" (but the path is actually "pictures")
-You get the error?

Very puzzling!

Edited by Pipexer (Thu 21-Jul-11 21:41:18)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

That's not normal *3. All my users, Admins & Limited, have full permission for all their own Documents folders on both XP & Vista. Also Admins have full permissions to everyone else's Documents folders.

I'm a great one for manipulating permissions, but I've never touched anyone's Documents folders, honest guv!

The permissions appear to be correct, but access is still denied. It's almost as though I'm not being recognised as me via one path, but accepted via another.

But - more to come, as I have found something very odd.

Are you clicking a junction point rather than the actual pictures folder? (check post above)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

That's not normal *3. All my users, Admins & Limited, have full permission for all their own Documents folders on both XP & Vista. Also Admins have full permissions to everyone else's Documents folders.

I'm a great one for manipulating permissions, but I've never touched anyone's Documents folders, honest guv!

The permissions appear to be correct, but access is still denied. It's almost as though I'm not being recognised as me via one path, but accepted via another.

But - more to come, as I have found something very odd.

Simples!!!

Vista and 7 no longer use the same file paths as XP etc.

In XP, a users music would be in "C:\documents and settings\<username>\my documents\my music"

That is, a subdirectory of their "my documents" folder, which in itself was within the "documents and settings" folder.

Vista onwards saw fit to change this file path to "C:\users\<username>\my music". Note that this is NOT a subdirectory of my documents, nor is it within the documents and settings folder.

As Microsoft realise that some programmers will have hardcoded "C:\documents and settings\<username>\my documents\my music\" as where music is stored, there is a link which shows in my computer (but isn't an actual directory, and won't open if clicked) within the C: drive called "Documents and settings" that points to the Users folder, and another link within the "My Documents" folder which points to "My Music", which is now parallel with my documents rather than within it.

The purpose of this is not for you to navigate via the old path, but so that a hardcoded link will still work. If you try to open these links, you get "access denied".

Windows 7 complicates stuff slightly more by including the stupid "libraries" rubbish.

In reply to a post by nemeth782:

Windows 7 complicates stuff slightly more by including the stupid "libraries" rubbish.

Does winsxs still have the same problems (excessive disk space usage and AV scanning) in W7 that Vista has?

The W7 Winsxs folder is not a normal folder and the size shown is deceptive. It should not be touched.

Ah, the old Junctions! I imagined Bob would have long known about these on Vista.

In reply to a post by AEP:

That's not normal. A user should have permission to his own folders.

What does confuse some people is that the Administrator doesn't, by default, have access to other users folders. But this makes sense to me as it means that an Administrator can't access another user's private data without them being aware of the fact.

See my reply a second ago to XRaySpex. I am the only "User" apart from the disabled "Guest".

However, the oddity I have found is:-

Using Windows Explorer on the Win 7 there are two "My Documents" folders at the same level under Bob! But with differences. Not only that, but examining the Vista machine over the network there are two there as well - but using Windows Explorer on the Vista machine only one shows up. Hmmmm.

Permissions on both on Win 7 are identical but the icon and the Properties are different. Both are a "folder" icon, but one has the bottom left corner overlaid with a small square containing a curved up-arrow. Clicking that one gives Access denied. Its properties say it is a file folder, but the only further information is the modification date and time, which is as near dammit as the one without the arrow box.

Clicking the plain icon gives acces to the folder contents, which are "My xxxxx", all of which have the arrow-box in the left bottom corner of their icons. Clicking them gives Access denied, although all of these show full permissions to Users\Bob and Administrators - Bob being the only obvious Administrator. The properties of this My Documents include the usual size and numbers of sub-folders and files data.

Below the two "My Documents" are further My Music/Pictures/Videos, without the arrow-box. Straight in, no problem. On the Vista machine there are corresponding folders without the "My", an IIRC there was no problem with those either.

One line of thought that has come to me is that I am seeing both an Administrator view of the whole shebang, overlaid with the private view of Bob, on both machines. Next step is to add a non-Administrator user and see how that behaves, and perhaps another Admin user and see how well that accesses these inaccessible Bob folders..

I don't think that was the Q.

So what? If you feel like answering it, do so.

Instead of navigating to Desktop=>Bob, which is not the actual storage, it is always clearer to navigate to My Computer=>C:\Users\Bob.

The folders with the curved up-arrow are just Junctions (sort of shortcuts) put in to maintain compatibility with XP at low level and are not accessible in Explorer.

You can see this clearer in a Command Prompt by navigating to C:\Users\Bob and doing a "dir /a". Also at this level the Junctions are accessible.

I would have thought you would have long known about these on Vista.

EDIT: Please forgive me if you find this post fatuous

Edited by XRaySpeX (Thu 21-Jul-11 23:03:02)

I can't! I don't possess W7! So I don't bother to offer fatuous remarks!

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

I can't! I don't possess W7! So I don't bother to offer fatuous remarks!

On the contrary, that's all you do.

Careful with that li'l ole attitude now...

In reply to a post by nemeth782:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The permissions appear to be correct, but access is still denied. It's almost as though I'm not being recognised as me via one path, but accepted via another.

But - more to come, as I have found something very odd.

Simples!!!

Vista and 7 no longer use the same file paths as XP etc.

In XP, a users music would be in "C:\documents and settings\<username>\my documents\my music"

That is, a subdirectory of their "my documents" folder, which in itself was within the "documents and settings" folder.

Vista onwards saw fit to change this file path to "C:\users\<username>\my music". Note that this is NOT a subdirectory of my documents, nor is it within the documents and settings folder.

With you there. This makes sense.

I realised long ago that My "anything" and their contents do not exist in Vista. These are just some clever sort of envelope of further pointers/links.

As Microsoft realise that some programmers will have hardcoded "C:\documents and settings\<username>\my documents\my music\" as where music is stored, there is a link which shows in my computer (but isn't an actual directory, and won't open if clicked) within the C: drive called "Documents and settings" that points to the Users folder, and another link within the "My Documents" folder which points to "My Music", which is now parallel with my documents rather than within it.

The purpose of this is not for you to navigate via the old path, but so that a hardcoded link will still work. If you try to open these links, you get "access denied".

I need to re-read that a few times, because although it is clear in itself and I understand what you are saying, I don't quite get how the hard-coded link works when a click doesn't.

Ahhh, now wait a minute ... (I'm on the Vista downstairs and don't want to alter things on it) ..., I always set to see system and hidden files as soon as I have a machine up and running ... back in a minute!

Bingo! Thanks!

It's in Tools >> Options >> View. In there I have always set "Show hidden files, folders and drives" as I used to need that. That does not affect this issue, and having just turned that off I have turned it on again. But was does is a couple of entries lower down, "Hide protected operating system files". I unticked that initially. Ticking it eliminates all the icons with the arrow-box that I had narrowed the problem down to.

On the Vista machine I did work out how to make those links clickable lol, but eliminating them didn't half clean up the Win 7 Windows Explorer screen!

Windows 7 complicates stuff slightly more by including the stupid "libraries" rubbish.

Just coming to terms with that. Strangely I installed a Vaio for a friend about a year ago, with Win 7, and was so impressed this new one is a Vaio, and don't remember Libraries. Or maybe that's a setting as well. I shall find out. "Folders" still stick in my gullet, but I have had to start using the word otherwise most people haven't a clue what you are on about if you mention directories.

Thanks again! (Your post was while I was composing my earlier long investigation as well as eating and watching the Prom on TV).

Thanks also to all who joined in. XRaySpex also hit the nail but I didn't see that until after it was sorted, including finding what I had done to cause it.

As I said at the start, it had to be me or else there would have been uproar.

When you open Windows Explorer, it defaults to 'Libraries' view.

Yes, this one does. Just I don't remember it doing so on the one I did before. Or maybe it did and I turned it off either deliberately or accidentally.

If I plough around it might come back to me. Just this other question was driving me scatty as it just didn't make sense, so most of my spare time since 14:30 has been spent on it.

That can be changed. Libraries can be removed almost completely in fact.

Now that is not something I've seen.. Normally, I do a virgin install on a new disk and then move the Libraries form the old disk, which is when I get the permissions thing..

In reply to a post by Spasch:

Now that is not something I've seen.. Normally, I do a virgin install on a new disk and then move the Libraries form the old disk, which is when I get the permissions thing..

It was because immediately after installs I go into Folder Options and set to see Hidden and System files, which doesn't cause a problen, but on Vista and now Win 7 there is the option to hide protected files etc., and turning that off which I had done without really knowing why it wasn't covered by the previous option is th cause.

The Vista machine now has that turned back to "Hide" as well. D'oh!

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

but on Vista and now Win 7 there is the option to hide protected files etc.,

As there is on XP!

I always have both options unhidden/shown on all my OSs as well as "Show extensions" as I want to have complete visibility of all my files.

Likewise, as explained earlier. Which is why I was unticking it without realising it would cause a mess.

Just that this "Hide" protected only seems to affect this "Junction" thing (which I didn't know about) and doesn't lose me any useful info. It also greatly simplifies the Windows Explorer layout having it ticked.