Microsoft Volterra (ARM-based mini PC)

Well officially Windows Dev Kit 2023 - but anyone try one yet?

https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/d/windows-dev-kit-20...

Apparently natively not as snappy as an old M1 Mac Mini running Win ARM under Parallels virtualisation according to this guy on this review.

Still looks interesting.

Edited by Pheasant (Tue 22-Nov-22 22:54:47)

I’m not sure that you are comparing like with like. For $900 you get a Mini with 8GB of RAM as opposed to the Dev Kit with 32GB for $600. They are designed for different purposes. One for video processing, and the like, the other for development. For the latter I’d go for more RAM with a slower processor.

For sure - it’s not Apples for apples 😂- they may be destined for different purposes, but the Mac Mini comparison is an obvious-ish and difficult one to get away from, given the ARM and foot(print)…

The Volterra is a genuinely interesting beast; MS obviously heavily subsidising the price - at £579 here it’s around £200 or so less than a similar footprint Lenovo or Dell micro PC with a 12th gen i5, the same size SSD but half the amount of RAM - I just bought four Lenovo M80q Gen 3’s for £750 a pop so that price point is fresh in my mind.

Baseline Mac Mini with 8GB / 256GB is £700 and double hard-drive or double the memory’s is another £200 on top for each. No aftermarket upgrade possible. Easy money for Apple.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

For sure - it’s not Apples for apples 😂- they may be destined for different purposes, but the Mac Mini comparison is an obvious-ish and difficult one to get away from, given the ARM and foot(print)…

The ARM side of the CPU is similar, but reports are that because the Qualcomm CPU doesn't have the Apple extensions to assist Intel realtime conversion, running x86/64 applications using Win11 for ARM's real time transcoder doesn't compare with Apple's M1/M2 series. So useful if you want to develop for Windows on ARM, cheaper than the ARM version of the Surface Pro 9 but not something to run for mostly running x86/64 applications.

The hardware guys are looking to Qualcomm's future CPU releases as they integrate recent acquisions to see if they can create a similar feature set to M1.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

The ARM side of the CPU is similar, but reports are that because the Qualcomm CPU doesn't have the Apple extensions to assist Intel realtime conversion, running x86/64 applications using Win11 for ARM's real time transcoder doesn't compare with Apple's M1/M2 series.

It isn't just the Apple extensions, the M1 is also 50-60% faster at raw CPU speed (for single threaded tasks). And of course the M1 is two years old now 😉 (and no doubt the Mini will get the M2 soon, 70% faster than the Qualcomm in single core and 50% in multi).

Qualcomm still have some catching up to do.

Yes of that (both outright muscle/performance : / power to punch : / minimal power consumption) there is no doubt that Apple Silicon holds the crown in ARM-land and will do so for the foreseeable.

I can’t see Qualcomm catching up on that respect any time soon.

There are however drawbacks:

1. MacOS is the only real native OS option (I’m kind of discounting Asahi for the time being) on Apple Silicon

2. Running Windows for ARM requires Parallels. That in itself is OK performance-wise generally but doubtless an extra complication and cost. Then there is…

3. Microsoft licensing of WIndows on ARM is “grey” (my spin!) when running on Apple Silicon. Although I do it, I’m no longer a corporate slave so do what I want. But it’s a consideration that has been raised by those folks where legal and compliance rule the roost.

In reply to a post by andynormancx:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

The ARM side of the CPU is similar, but reports are that because the Qualcomm CPU doesn't have the Apple extensions to assist Intel realtime conversion, running x86/64 applications using Win11 for ARM's real time transcoder doesn't compare with Apple's M1/M2 series.

It isn't just the Apple extensions, the M1 is also 50-60% faster at raw CPU speed (for single threaded tasks). And of course the M1 is two years old now 😉 (and no doubt the Mini will get the M2 soon, 70% faster than the Qualcomm in single core and 50% in multi). Qualcomm still have some catching up to do.

Agreed, but the team (Nuvia) they purchased is ex-Apple engineers whom worked on the M1 and didn't want to stay... probably people whom worked for the previous chip design companies Apple purchased (e.g. PA Semi)

The future is no means clear!

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

2. Running Windows for ARM requires Parallels. That in itself is OK performance-wise generally but doubtless an extra complication and cost. Then there is…

Or VMWare Fusion 13, which has now been released and fully supports the M1 and running ARM based operating systems: https://www.vmware.com/products/fusion.html
Parallels itself has a 'grey' feature where it automatically downloads Windows for ARM from Microsoft.. in theory the person downloading is joining the Insiders beta test club, but Parallels doesn't make that obvious. Due to this sort of activity, Parallels has been banned from my corporate!

3. Microsoft licensing of WIndows on ARM is “grey” (my spin!) when running on Apple Silicon. Although I do it, I’m no longer a corporate slave so do what I want. But it’s a consideration that has been raised by those folks where legal and compliance rule the roost.

That is the problem in my corporate, we do a lot of MS based work, and so our legal team have said "no way".

Jon Honeyball's column in PCPro magazine a few months ago described running Windows 11 for ARM on his M1 or M2 Macbook Air, and he was amazed. Of course he is a director of his own company, so legal issues come straight back to him!

It has been reported (but not confirmed) that MS has an exclusive deal for Windows on ARM with Qualcomm CPUs... which explains, but is frustrating. Hence the Surface Pro X, and new Surface Pro 9.

Edited by jchamier (Wed 23-Nov-22 11:42:35)

In reply to a post by jchamier:

The hardware guys are looking to Qualcomm's future CPU releases as they integrate recent acquisions to see if they can create a similar feature set to M1.

Admittedly I’m not up to speed on the latest and greatest with Qualcomm’s plans for their ARM processor line, but Apple has had a huge head start and now are in the first third of their processor “decade” on their own desktop class silicon, so they continue to plough in huge resources.

Will be interesting to see how things pan out when Apple transition away from Qualcomm on their wireless chips and move to their own. Another play that has been under way for several years now.

Yes indeed, apologies I should have said virtualised in general rather than making it just a Parallels only thing. Which it’s not.