Billing errors

I regraded to Office 8000 Max in August and regraded back to 8000 Pro last month. On both occasions, Zen accounts messed up my invoices and it seems that there must be a serious communications problem between Customer Services and Accounts. Is this something that Zen are aware of and working towards fixing?

Simon

Can you be a bit more specific regarding "messed up"?

For example, I was invoiced today for the month commencing today at the old tariff, which was changed a fortnight ago.

Simon

And have you spoken to Zen's accounts people to get it sorted?

Mistakes happen, but I've always found such issues are resolved quickly and efficiently.

I emailed them on Saturday morning. No reply as yet.

Simon

Accounts aren't open at the weekend, so I guess they'll get around to it as they clear their queue of emails today.

Dear Simon

Please PM me the details.

Thanks for sorting it out!

Simon

Edited by deleted (Mon 10-Nov-08 18:42:13)

Problem seems to have been that they sent me a credit note and then a) didn't credit my bank account and b) continued to invoice me at the old rate. That's two errors for the price of one. According to Zen they were waiting for me to tell them what to do with the credit note funds... Seems a bit strange and I think some lines of internal communication need some WD40.

Simon

Dear Simon

It is regretable that after giving you assistance in private to resolve your query, you have minutes later come onto a public forum and posted up your own misinterpretation of the facts.
Unfortunately I cannot assit you through this board any further and you should channel your queries through the usual means.

Simon,

This is an old chestnut and has been discussed here many times before. When Zen issue a credit they simply allocate it as a credit note, in line with standard business practice. You need to advise them how you want that credit note to be processed/handled.

Zen can't make assumptions as to how you might want that credit applied or claimed. You might want it simply refunded to your bank account (if you pay by DD). You might want it refunded to your credit card (if you pay by that method). Or you might want it applied against your next invoice. Or you might want them to send you a cheque. Or maybe you think that they should be clairvoyant and "guess" what it is that you want?

I agree that Zen still need to make it clearer that customers need to advise them of how a credit is to be processed, but it's hardly "two errors".

Thanks for your help Zullio and for arranging for the credit to be refunded to me. Unfortunately, there were errors in this process and I am free to post about them if I wish, unless there is a hidden privacy clause somewhere.

I repeat: the credit note should have made it clear that some action was required from me in order to get the credit refunded. There was no such instruction with it and the only reasonable assumption is that the refund would automatically be credited to my bank or card. Failing to make this clear is an error in your processes which I think you should put right.

The second error is still unexplained. The credit note did say that my subscription would be changed from the next billing date (November 8) -- but it wasn't. My November 8 invoice was the same as the previous months when I was paying for the Office service (which I cancelled/regraded on October 23).

Perhaps there was some other obscure action required of me in order to reduce my November 8 invoice to the correct amount but I think not. It was another Zen error. (In fact, yet another error occurred when, despite a clear agreement that my regrade would take place on my billing date two weeks hence, my service was regraded within 24 hours, causing considerable inconvenience.)

I gather that you aren't keen to discuss these matters in a public forum -- but I hope that you will allow me my right to air what I feel are legitimate grievances about these flawed accounting processes. Instead of complaining about me posting here, I think you should address the internal procedures which gave rise to these errors. I am one of Zen's biggest fans -- but that doesn't mean that Zen cannot do any wrong -- nor that I shouldn't alert other subscribers to a possible flaw in your accounting processes.

Simon

In reply to:

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When Zen issue a credit they simply allocate it as a credit note, in line with standard business practice.

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I don't know what makes you think this is standard business practice. In over 30 years of business I've rarely come across this practice. In my experience in the case of on going business the credit note is deducted from the next payment. Since Zen are deducting the money I would expect, unless otherwise instructed, future payments to be reduced until the credit note is cleared.

My experience with Zen is it took 3 phone calls, each one after they emailed me a statement, to get them to process the credit note.

Absolutely, a credit note should not have to be claimed but should be applied to the account automatically.

If you get a credit on your mobile phone bill, your next bill is reduced.

I do not understand why Zen cannot adopt this approach as well. Perhaps they can shed some light (I know this topic's been discussed before but I'm not clear on the justification for their approach).

Cheers

Andy

Our credit note policy is based upon the large cross section of customers we have from residential through to business. As you can appreciate this is a very broad spectrum of users with varying levels of accountancy needs. Whatever is good for one customer may not be good for the next and so on, and we think it is best policy not to make assumptions when it comes to the return/offsetting of credit.
We take on board any expereinces you may have had and always endeavour to produce satisfactory results.

Thanks for the reply and clarification of logic.

Perhaps the default for domestic customers could be a refund or perhaps an option in the portal where a customer can choose the default action for any credits?

Just my 2p worth

Cheers

-Andy

Andy-that is a very good idea for sure and something I'll definately pass on to our portal developers. The portal is evolving all the time and this would be a useful tool/functionality to place in it.
Excellent contribution :-)

thats something that was suggested at least 2 years ago IIRC

credit notes have been a problem with zen since i first joined them nearly 5 years ago.

I had a credit note in my account for around 5 months. I received an email to say I had a credit note, but nothing in the email said that I needed to contact Zen to discuss what could be done about it.

The layout in the "Billing" section in the portal didn't help either, as the monthly bill with the credit note value made it appear that the credit note was going against the monthly bill.

In other words, due to the portal page it looked as if the credit note was going to be used against the next 3 monthly payments.

When I saw that it wasn't being deducted (after 3 months) I decided to leave it a bit longer to see if I was contacted. I wasn't, so emailed the department and got it sorted.

As you can see by my signature I've migrated now to another provider, not because of this credit note problem. This time however I've phoned up to sort out the rest of this months refund since I now know the procedure.

So basically, it needs to (A) Be made clear to the end user / bill payer that you need to contact billing in the first instance once you receive a credit note and (B) Clear up the portal "Billing" page so that the monthly payments show that the credit note isn't being applied against it (Unless you've specifically asked for this arrangement to happen).

It's silly things like this, that can give a company a bad / slightly poor reputation, as people will start to call you "money grabbers" (to put it politely) when credit notes can be held in Zens' possession for months with no contact to or from an end user / bill payer.

Off to enjoy my ADSL2+ connection

In reply to:

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I don't know what makes you think this is standard business practice. In over 30 years of business I've rarely come across this practice. In my experience in the case of on going business the credit note is deducted from the next payment.

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But it is not automatically deducted by the company sending you the credit note.

Say Company X receives a credit note from Company Y. The normal practice to 'claim' the credit would be for Company X to enter their credit note in their ledger and to allocate it against any future invoice received from Company Y. Thus any payment of that invoice (or invoices) would include a claim against the credit note and would be referenced in the remittance advice.

This way there is an auditable accounting trail of where the credit came from and how it was disposed.

The normal practice to 'claim' the credit would be for Company X to enter their credit note in their ledger and to allocate it against any future invoice received from Company Y. Thus any payment of that invoice (or invoices) would include a claim against the credit note and would be referenced in the remittance advice.
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But there are no invoices from customers in this scenario. And many customers aren't businesses either. My subs are taken from a private card and the 'normal' practice would be to refund credits to that card.

Even if Zen choose instead to credit the refund against their next invoice, they have failed to do so in my case. My Nov 8 invoice was for the full Office rate (but should actually have been at the Home Zen 8000
Pro rate) and did not show any of the credit due to me.

My account has been mismanaged by Zen in multiple ways -- without even a hint of an apology.

Simon

Mike
Most profound-I couldn't have put it better myself. That is exactly the protocol adopted.

Zullio, you've replied to the wrong post and, for the sake of clarity, might want to move your post.

Simon

Post deleted by Zullio

its attitudes like Zullio displays that make me glad i left Zen when i did

How very rude. As I said, please reply to the person you are responding to - which wasn't me. You don't seem to have grasped how forum discussions work.

Simon

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But there are no invoices from customers in this scenario.

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Nor should there be - customers don't raise invoices, their supplier does!

AFAIK all Zen customers receive an invoice. For those (like me) who pay using a card, that invoice is sent as a PDF via email after the card payment has been processed.

In reply to:

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And many customers aren't businesses either.

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And many might be - Zen can't assume who is or isn't, or who does or does not require an invoice for tax purposes.

In reply to:

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My subs are taken from a private card and the 'normal' practice would be to refund credits to that card.

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The "normal" practice in this case would only work if Zen used a Continuous Payment Authority on the card you supply - something which (thankfully) they don't. The PCI are also trying to discourage the refunding of amounts to cards in the fashion you describe, especially where the refund amount doesn't match a debit transaction against the card.

I've already said that Zen need to make it clearer to customers what the credit note is and how to "claim" the credit. However, this doesn't equate to "mismanagement".

I get two types of credit note. In one scenario, a supplier has invoiced me wrongly for something and I haven't paid the bill. So he sends me a credit note and I then ignore the bill. In the second scenario, a supplier overcharges me for something but this time, I've paid the bill. The supplier then sends me a credit note and *either* send me my excess funds back *or* applies the credit note immediately to an imminent due invoice.

Much depends on the amount of the credit note. If it is for example more than a month's subscription (as it was in my case) then it is clearly unreasonable to hold on to my funds to set against invoices which may not be drawn up and issued for several months. The clear onus in such a scenario is on to make a cash refund as quickly as possible. If it is for a smaller amount than the next subscription payment then it would be reasonable to hold it for a short time to set against the next invoice (although it is debatable whether one full month is a short time).

As it happens, in this case Zen did neither. They didn't send cash back to my card (until later in response to this discussion) and nor did they make any credit adjustment to my Nov 8 invoice.

So there clearly has been "mismanagement".

Simon

Hi Simon

As senior operations manager for Zen Internet I'd like to apologise to you for the poor service you have recieved from us in respect of trying to resolve this issue.

I know that one of our staff members is now working with you to resolve the problems you have encountered and I will also raise awareness to these internally in order that we can learn from them once I return from leave.

Your feedback is always welcomed as is any from our customers and I would ask that you continue to contribute to the discussions in this forum as all feedback is valuable.

We never intended to upset you or any other customers in this thread and we can always learn from these encounters.

If you have any further problems please don't hesitate to contact me directly. I have e-mailed you my personal e-mail address at Zen.

Regards
Gary Hough

Thank you, Gary. I think that my problem has already been put right and I hope that the processes may be improved as a result.

Simon

Simon,

I work in local government, where the auditing of accounts is taken very seriously, where accounting practices have to be especially accurate and where large numbers of invoices are processed daily. I didn't just create the process I outlined for the correct handling of credit notes; I spoke to colleagues who are professionally-qualified accountants to confirm how credit notes should be processed by a business.

A credit note is raised where there is any agreed discrepancy between the amount that the customer has paid for goods/services from a supplier. The could be over the dispute of an invoice (where a credit note covers an entire invoice), or for an overcharge, as you mention. Or it could be due to early termination of a service, or the substitution of goods at one value against another, or the under-supply of goods (you buy X idgets but only receive Y).

A credit note should never automatically be allocated (applied to an invoice) by a supplier, and certainly not without informing the customer. The customer should always state how they wish the credit note to be allocated. They may choose to receive it as a payment e.g. cash/cheque. More commonly they may wish to offset the credit note against one or more subsequent invoices from that supplier, depending on value. When making a remittance to a supplier, the reference numbers of the credit notes being applied will be highlighted to indicate which credit note the supplier may now deem to have been settled. A customer may have several trading accounts with the supplier and may wish to ensure that the credit note is properly applied to an outstanding invoice for a particular account, not just on any account.

By automatically offsetting a credit note against an imminent invoice, the supplier risks placing the customer in a position of underpaying one invoice and over-paying another. The books may appear balanced at the end of the day, but an accountant/auditor would be highly critical of such a practice. It risks placing the customer in a position where they believe they've settled an invoice in full, but the supplier believes that the invoice is only part-paid. At best this leads to a heated exchange with the supplier, at worst it could lead to the involvement of a debt-recovery agency. There will also very likely be tax implications, even for those not VAT registered - your supplier might be. Mis-allocated credits may result in VAT claims being incorrect, something which HMRC could regard as poor accounting at best and fraud at worst.

Whilst you (personally) choose to handle credit notes in the way that you do does not make it the correct business practice. Very likely you're dealing with a small number of invoices, even from the same supplier, and probably aren't too concerned about the VAT implications. You are unlikely to need to have your accounts audited and lodged with Companies House. Zen on the other hand do have to have their accounts audited and do have to make sure that credit notes are issued and allocated correctly according to the express wishes of customers, not based on assumptions.

Yes, Zen made an administrative mistake with your billing. Mistakes happen - even you aren't perfect - what is important is that they acknowledge that and will sort it (which appears to be the case, is it not?). However, they handled the credit note situation correctly according to proper business practice, whether you care to accept this or not. I've already said that I think that they need to make this practice clearer to customers as not all of them will appreciate how credit notes should be handled. But that does not constitute "mismanagement". If Zen were regularly screwing up peoples billing then I might agree with the use of the word, but in all the years I've had dealings with Zen - both as a residential customer and a business customer - I've only had to contact their accounts people two, possibly three times. And in all three cases the issues were resolved promptly and efficiently, the same level of service as we all praise Zen's customer and technical support functions for.

If you want "mismanagement" of the handling of accounts, I give you two examples. First, BT Private Circuit Billing (BT PCB), who issue a credit note to the customer and then automatically allocate it to any outstanding private circuit account you have, regardless of whether it is the same account as the credit note was raised against, and not telling the customer they've done this. This often leads to the credit effectively being "claimed" twice - once by the customer using the credit note when making a remittance, and once by BT PCB arbitrarily allocating it to a customer's account. The net result is that the customer then gets nasty letters from BT PCB saying that the account is underpaid, threats of circuits being suspended, etc. etc.

The other example of "mismanagement" is Demon's accounts/billing people. Here, we don't even get into the use of credit notes, simply the allocation of remittances to outstanding accounts (invoices). When a remittance is sent it will contain a remittance advice note, a list of the invoices the remittance (payment) is intended to cover. Demon's accounts people occasionally disregard this and simply allocate the payment to whatever outstanding invoices that customer may have. This leads to the situation where a customer believes a particular invoice is paid, yet Demon start chasing because the invoice (according to their system) is only part-paid, because the payment for that invoice was partially allocated to another outstanding invoice.

Wow thats a big chunk of text!

But thanks for taking the time to post it none the less!

Thanks for that - and especially for the paragraph breaks!

I don't dispute anything you have said. But I think it's very likely that Zen are able to distinguish between their personal and business customers and I'm sure that there should be different processes used depending upon the type of customer. Businesses may well be used to getting credit notes and responding to them with instructions. Private customers certainly aren't. Typically, and justifiably, they place the onus on Zen to proceed to balance the account - which in the vast majority of cases would mean a refund to a card or an adjustment to their next bill. I got neither -- nor any notice to give Zen instructions. In fact, my credit note states clearly: "This invoice adjusts the billing of your broadband service after the regrade from "Zen Office 8000 Max" to "Zen 8000 Pro" on 24th October 2008" - and it was therefore obviously not followed through since my next invoice a fortnight later was for another month's sub at the full Office 8000 Max tariff.

So, however right you may be, there was still plenty of mismanagement of my account -- and several processes which are flawed in terms of handling business with private customers.

Simon

In reply to:

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Thanks for that - and especially for the paragraph breaks!

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You're welcome Simon, I thought it might help educate you in the ways of business.

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I don't dispute anything you have said.

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Oh really? So why still maintain this view of "mismanagement" as opposed to "honest mistake"? Must be so difficult being so perfect.

In reply to:

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But I think it's very likely that Zen are able to distinguish between their personal and business customers

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How so? If I order an ADSL connection for business use, I don't necessarily need to either (a) establish a trading account with Zen or (b) only purchase the "Office" branded services. I can (and have) bought Home 8000 services. How then do you expect that Zen could tell any difference between my own home service and my business services?

In reply to:

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Businesses may well be used to getting credit notes and responding to them with instructions. Private customers certainly aren't.

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And I've already stated (both here and in the thread that covered this many moons ago) that Zen ought to mak it clearer to ALL customers what their processes are for handling credit notes. I agree that residential customers won't be aware of how they should claim the credit. I disagree that it should be automatic for some; as I've already mentioned, the PCI are not keen on refunding to cards as a way of settling a credit note (since the value of the credit note is unlikely to be exactly the same as the invoice that was charged to the card in the first place). I also prefer Zen not to hold my card details for those purposes.

So why still maintain this view of "mismanagement" as opposed to "honest mistake"?
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In the past three weeks there has been a series of "honest mistakes" on my account. I allow only the first one in a series as an mistake. The second one starts to trouble me. By the third one, we're getting into flawed processes. Don't encourage me to post chapter and verse. I am happy with Zenops Gary's actions and his reply in this thread -- which acknowledges the problems with their processes and promises to review them.

You're welcome to disagree with his assessment of course.

Simon

No, I'm disagreeing with yours.

You're welcome to do that too.

Simon

I've already said that Zen need to make it clearer to customers what the credit note is and how to "claim" the credit. However, this doesn't equate to "mismanagement".
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Different rules should be applied to private/personal customers; it's as simple as that. Zen surely know whether they have a customer called John Smith or John Smith Ltd. That's all it takes. Business customers may well be happy to settle for a credit note and no automatic refund. Private individuals expect, and deserve, their money back as quickly and automatically as possible whenever they have overpaid for any reason.

The Times branded the utility firms as "rip-off Britain" when it was revealed that they were holding on to up to �1bn of customers' overpayments (overpayments which the same companies were automatically refunding back to their customers in other parts of Europe). Linky. I'm sure that Zen wouldn't want to be tarred with the same "rip-off" brush.

You will also find that it is the policy of all local authorities to automatically refund overpayments back to customers' banks or credit/debit cards. Linky. All state education institutions act in the same way.

The Office of Fair Trading gives refunds, not credit notes, when there has been an over-payment for a credit licence. Linky

Internet retailers automatically refund overpayment or payments for goods which aren't in stock.

It isn't rocket science. If a company has your cash and isn't entitled to keep it then it should be automatically refunded. There is no moral justification for not doing so, even if there may be some basis in law for issuing a credit note and sitting back.

So, in short, treat business how they expect to be treated. And treat individuals as people who don't have enough money to lend it to you at 0% interest.

Simon

In reply to:

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Different rules should be applied to private/personal customers; it's as simple as that. Zen surely know whether they have a customer called John Smith or John Smith Ltd.

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Zen have no way of knowing which of their customers are business and which are residential. You don't have to tell Zen, and certainly the name you provide Zen doesn't have to include any type of business suffix (such as Limited or Plc) even if you are ordering on behalf of one.

I have provided Zen with no information which would tell them which type of customer I am, so even if they did have 2 processes, how do they know which to use on me?

It's been quite interesting reading both sides of this discussion - sitting as an impartial observer I think you both make salient points.

Cheers
Ruz

Zen have no way of knowing which of their customers are business and which are residential. You don't have to tell Zen, and certainly the name you provide Zen doesn't have to include any type of business suffix (such as Limited or Plc) even if you are ordering on behalf of one.
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It's difficult to buy into the notion that a company which has to market its services doesn't know who its customers are! I would make it my business to find out. But failing that, I would assume that all accounts which are paid for out of a personal, named individual's account should be classed as private customers while those paid out of a company account are obviously business customers.

Alternatively, treat all Home account customers as private customers, whether they are or not; and treat all Office account customers as businesses, whether they are or not.

It really isn't difficult to arrive at a process which allows Zen to occupy the moral high ground -- which is where money owed to private customers is automatically refunded to them with no further questions having to be asked.

Simon

In reply to:

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But failing that, I would assume that all accounts which are paid for out of a personal, named individual's account should be classed as private customers while those paid out of a company account are obviously business customers.

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I pay by standing order - Zen have no idea if my account is a business account or personal.They just receive the money with the appropriate reference code saying this payment is for my account. Of course, Zen could just ask customers explicitly, and set a default based on that information, possibly adding a configuration option to the portal to allow this to be customised, or at least changed.

I don't think treating all customers on one style of account as the same really solves the problem, it might reduce the number of residential customers who have issues while still causing audit problems for those business customers who may use 'home' accounts. So you still have the same overall problem, just on a smaller scale.

So, yes, I agree it is possible for Zen to handle this better, and I also see that there are reasons why the current process is as it is. It does seem that there is room for improvement.

Ruz

Great, so because your mobile works that way, that's the right way? I don't think so.

I *do* deal with this sort of stuff all the time, and I'd not be too happy if Credit Notes got dealt with automatically. A "CREDIT" on your bill is NOT a Credit Note in the case you use as an example.

The point is that if I issue a "credit note", I'm issuing a NOTE of CREDIT. In a busy company which does many transactions, "automatic" processing of credit notes would be awful if the "auto" application onto another invoice happened while my payment for another invoice in full had already been released. It would be more trouble than it is worth.

HOWEVER - since the topic has come up, I do find that getting Zen to deal with credits a complete nightmare. Every time I have asked for Zen to refund the credit amounts back to our card, it is a shambles. We've had to ask 8-9 times before, no word of a lie.

My view is that Zen need to improve this area for sure - while I don't think they're doing anything wrong with the Credit Note as such, I agree it would be useful if they made it clearer to customers, particularly consumers, who aren't generally familiar with the process of credit notes on how to do something about them. I suspect Zen have been the gainee of some cash over the years from unclaimed credits which ultimately end up in the "other income" category.

It would of course also be helpful that they process them when requested. :-)

Mike,

Agreed, including the bit about BT's Private Circuit Billing :-)

You should try changing to a more honest ISP which when it says it is going to give you a refund actually carries it out without needing any further action on your part!

*yawn*

I thought trolls hibernated for winter?

Ruz

That's definitely not pussnet then. It took me over six months to get a refund out of those clowns.

Obviously not - first spotted on the Plusnet forums.

Within the last year or so?

Or is your comment about something that happened some time back?

Yes, you were, weren't you...

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You should try changing to a more honest ISP which when it says it is going to give you a refund actually carries it out without needing any further action on your part!

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Is that some kinda joke?

Try Tiscali/Pipex they have to be the worst at ISP at getting your money back!

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I work in local government,

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Hahahahahahaha

Well [censored] me, a local goverment employee defending a companies right to keep repeating the same mistakes......

ROFLMAO! Priceless!!

Laugh it up, Homer, laugh it up.

Troll.