Zen unlimited FTTC

For those who've missed the newsletter, Zen have launched three FTTC and phone line bundles, two of which have unlimited usage. These packages don't appear to be limited to those whose exchanges are on the Zen MPLS network .

The new packages are listed with "Home Office" pricing (including VAT) or business pricing (excluding VAT).


The extra cost of Fibre Unlimited 2 (unlimited 76/19 FTTC) over my existing Fibre Active product is only £3.73 plus VAT.


My phone line is currently with BT Retail on a 12 month advance line rental deal, and my FTTC is within the first 12 months on Fibre Active. Clearly I would have to factor in the different phone pricing on Zen, and wait until I'm out of contract with BT Retail in a few months' time.

Once I'm out of contract, I should then be able to migrate my existing BT Retail number to Zen - a migration from one WLR provider to another. Will this migration will lead to a FTTC cease and reprovide. If so, what are the consequences in terms of down time, charges and minimum contract periods?

Hi,

Thank you for the extensive right up. I just want to answer a couple of you questions.

If you move your phone line from BT to Zen this wont result in the ceasing of your phone line.

And you are right, our new products are open to all customer old and new and when your ready if you call our sales team they would be more than happy to go through it all with you.

Good spot

So a 40Mb unlimited package with Zen now comes in at £42.44 a month, including line rental and VAT. And I'm currently paying A&A £42 a month including line rental and VAT for 100Gb of off peak traffic per month or 5Gb of on peak per month.

Shame I'm still in contract with A&A until April next year. Tis a good offer, no doubt about it. Shame Zen still don't do native IPv6 though.

Will keep an eye on how things progress into 2014 with A&A offerings, this one and others.

So.

Need to ring to order? Says ring number.
Need to take phone package? no thanks, scrap that requirement zen and you have my attention.

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 20-Sep-13 03:08:42)

Is the package available to customers who don't want to move their phone line ????
If not what are the options

I would also be interested in 76/19 unlimited FTTC without moving the phone to Zen. The phone line is not in my name and I've been told it needs to stay with the current provider.

Zen, if your reading this, add IPV6 support, and I will switch my account over to you.

I'm currently on Zen Fibre office, £66 per month with a 400GB download cap. Line rental not included,which is £15.45 from BT.

Total per month at present is therefore £81.45

I could switch to the new unlimited Fibre 2 package at a total of £45.44 including line rental from Zen.

So I can save £36.01 a month by switching. What's the catch? Is the broadband service identical on both packages? If so, why not just cut the price of the Fibre Office products?

Why the big disparity in pricing from Zen? One explanation could be they are using the price differential to persuade lots of existing customers to switch their line rental.

Are we about (or in a couple of months or so if the above explanation is correct) to see a big drop in the Fibre Office pricing?

Why are Zen (and other ISPs of course) so keen for you to move your line rental to them?

Reading a little more on think broadband it looks like (and I need Zen to confirm) that the phone line at £15.44 is a requirement.

If I break down what I currently have
BT Line @ £11.75 per month (pay 12 months ion advance to avoid the £15.45 fee)
BT Balls (Anytime) @ £7 per month
Zen Fibre Pro (200Gb Cap) @ £45.6 per month

So £64.35 per month

If I move to Zen and try to purchase similar service ( not identical though)
Zen Line @ £15.44 per month (even though on the Zen web site (http://www.zen.co.uk/home-office/voice/phone-services.aspx) it states this is £11.22 per month)
Zen Calls 5000 ( not unlimited like BT but I suspect without the 60 minute cap on calls) @ £17 per month
Zen Caller display @ £0.9 per month
Zen Unlimited Fibre 2 (No Cap) @ £30 per month

So £63.69 per month

Looks like a grand saving of approx 66p per month


Or of course I could move to BT on their unlimited Infinity 2 service for £26 per month
+ Phone line @ 11.75 per month
+ anytime @ £7 per month
Giving a total of £44.75
Looks like a savings of £19.6 per month


So from my rough calculations (and they need to be checked) + discussed pros and cons etc. I feel I am now being forced to make a choice or always feel like I am being ripped off

Option 1 Stay as is BT line and Zen Active, but always feel ripped off as I�m paying approx 50% more the internet , and I�m capped

Option 2 Move Phone line to Zen, and make a 66p per month savings, but the zen calls 5000 and caller ID , I don�t like the look of

Option 3 Move to BT Infinity 2 Unlimited and make a £19.6 per month savings + £6 x 3 (first 3 months reduced price) + £60 sainsburys voucher + BT Sports.


I don�t like being force to make such decisions as I would ideally leave my line with BT and broadband with Zen so

BT Line @ 11.75 per month ( pay 12 months ion advance to avoid the £15.45 fee)
BT Calls (Anytime) @ £7 per month
Zen Unlimited Fibre 2 (No Cap) @ £30 per month
So a total of £48.75 and a savings of £15.60 best of both worlds




Have I done my calculations correctly and which way do you think I am going��

What have you got to lose? There is always the next offer just around the corner. Zen promised 'changes coming soon' as long ago as May associated with the roll out of their improved network. Some of us were worried that improved download bandwidths would be offered only to customers served by Zen PoPs. Zen have decided to treat all their customers in the same way and I applaud them for doing that. Clearly, the marketeers at Zen have put together packages similar to those offered by BT. I appreciate that there are differences; i.e., slightly more for BB, no annual discount for the line rental and no free calls. That said, the offer on the table was good enough to make me switch. Time will tell whether Zen's capacity will cope: my guess is that it will.

Factor in the static IP and for some the pricing will change

that might be a loss for moving to BT. My point was about the need to be forced to change telcos
. In my view makes these prices no improvement on current, and I will feel ripped of by Zen as i have to pay approx 50% more for my 200Gb (Fibre pro ) capped service
i.e 46.60 vs 30

Hope I can just buy the BB service which I would be happy to, but not the telco as well

For now its only available as the bundle

Which in my situation is a major issue, and this will only make me feel ripped off, and consider moving!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ZEN: When will this be available without moving the line

Do you need the extra bandwidth?
Do you want quality UK support?
Why don't you want to move the line rental?

I can't get Fibre, so I pay £35 for ADSL2+ and have a cap of 200GB, which I hate right now.

I could move to PlusNet, save a lot of money, and have an unlimited service, with a static IP, and without changing my line rental provider.

It's a kick in the teeth to see faster, cheaper, unlimited products that aren't available to me, from the very ISP that I'm with.

I'm about a hair's breadth from asking for my MAC code. Where is the upside for the loyal customers stuck on slower products Zen?

In reply to a post by AndrewW:

Reading a little more on think broadband it looks like (and I need Zen to confirm) that the phone line at £15.44 is a requirement.

If I break down what I currently have
BT Line @ £11.75 per month (pay 12 months ion advance to avoid the £15.45 fee)
BT Balls (Anytime) @ £7 per month
Zen Fibre Pro (200Gb Cap) @ £45.6 per month

So £64.35 per month

If I move to Zen and try to purchase similar service ( not identical though)
Zen Line @ £15.44 per month (even though on the Zen web site (http://www.zen.co.uk/home-office/voice/phone-services.aspx) it states this is £11.22 per month)
Zen Calls 5000 ( not unlimited like BT but I suspect without the 60 minute cap on calls) @ £17 per month
Zen Caller display @ £0.9 per month
Zen Unlimited Fibre 2 (No Cap) @ £30 per month

So £63.69 per month

Looks like a grand saving of approx 66p per month

Have I done my calculations correctly and which way do you think I am going��

I may be missing something here (possible due to advancing years). Where did the £17 monthly cost for Zen Calls come from? You would already be paying for the line rental element at £15.45 per month and the Ts and Cs for this package state:

How much is phone line rental?

When ordering with Fibre Broadband our phone line rental is £15.45* (inc VAT) per month. You can add our Home Call Plan to this which is unlimited inclusive minutes to 01, 02, 03, 0845 & 0870 numbers for only £6.61 (inc VAT) per month.

I calculate that this would give you a monthly saving of £11.39 per month on what you pay now.

* There is a discrepancy of 1p between the plan page and the Phone FAQs for line rental so your saving may be even greater.

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

Why don't you want to move the line rental?

Line rental is currently £11.22 per month on a 30 day minimum term with Zen, if one took the lowest price fibre package then line rental would be £15.44 per month.

Lowest price for broadband only fibre with Plusnet is £18.49 (40GB usage but unlimited overnight) and one could keep line rental at £11.22 per month with Zen.

Bit confused by your questions so opefully this is what you are looking for
The £17 is for the zen 5000 package, whcih from a quick look is the closest to the BT anytime package @ £7 per month. This means my call costs are capped.

See http://www.zen.co.uk/home-office/voice/phone-service... and
http://www.productsandservices.bt.com/products/landl...

My BT Phoneline rental is £11.75 as i pay 12 months in advance
Whats the URL where you saw
When ordering with Fibre Broadband our phone line rental is £15.45* (inc VAT) per month. You can add our Home Call Plan to this which is unlimited inclusive minutes to 01, 02, 03, 0845 & 0870 numbers for only £6.61 (inc VAT) per month.


This is why i am looking for a reply from Zen to confirm the exact position, happy to be corrected if i have made a mistake

These not the questions i am considering,
As a customer i am asking
1. Any I happy wth the service
2. Do I need anything else
3. Is the cost right, am I feeling ripped off

If you want bargain basement, go with BT.
If you want quality, go with Zen.

There's an unlimited calls package (01/02/03/0845/0870) for £6.61 per month (inc VAT) on these tariffs - details are here.

So, the total monthly spend for Zen Unlimited Fibre 2 with unlimited calls is is:

£30 - Unlimited Fibre 2
£15.45 - line rental
£6.61 - unlimited calls

for a total of £52.06 including VAT.


Calling features are charged at the rates given here. The key one that will interest most people is Caller Display, which is 90p (including VAT) per month.

I didn't think that I was posing a question. All I am suggesting is that you have got your sums wrong. The present (old) £17 package is line rental plus calls. The new 80/20 Fibre Unlimited and phone package is £30 for the internet plus and £15.44 line rental. You cannot mix and match bits of the old and new packages If you want Unlimited (capped) 01.02.03.0845 and 0870 calls then add £6.61 per month. Why not ring Zen sales and get them to do the calculation. You might then let other posters know the result.

I'm sure your analysis is correct lexden16, though, as you say, Zen Sales will be able to confirm it.


Zen have clearly gone for BT Retail like voice pricing with their new packages.

Zen's line rental is the same as BT Retail at £15.45 per month. BT Retail gives the option to pay 12 months in advance at £141 (equivalent to £11.75 per month), Zen does not. If you have multiple lines on one account, BT only allows you to pay in advance for one line.

Unlimited calls is £6.61 on Zen as opposed to £7 with BT Retail. With the BT Retail version, you pay one unlimited call fee for all lines on the same account - I'm not clear whether the Zen version is per line or per account. This is significant for us as we have two lines, both of which we still need.

Caller display on Zen is 90p per month. It is inclusive on BT Retail if you meet the (minimal) conditions for Privacy at Home.

Call diversion on Zen is £2.40 per month, and includes call waiting. On BT Retail, call diversion costs £3.30 per month.


Zen will cost us more for our setup - two lines, both with caller display and unlimited calls, one with call diversion costs:

BT Retail
£11.75 rental for one line (year in advance)
£15.45 rental for the second line
£7 unlimited calls (one payment for both lines)
nil for caller display (Privacy at Home)
£3.30 call diversion (one line only)

£37.50 total for voice


Zen
£15.45 x 2 line rental
£6.61 x 2 unlimited calls (I think it's x 2)
£0.90 x 2 caller display
£2.40 call diversion (includes call waiting)

£48.32 total for voice


Understandably, I'd rather not pay an extra £10.82 per month for phone services! I'd save some of this by leaving the second line with BT Retail, though I'd probably struggle to split one line away from the current BT Retail account. VoIP would be an option for the second line, but hanging on to the existing number is crucial.

Unfortunately, combined broadband and voice packages seem to be the way ahead.

In reply to a post by AndyPandy:

It's a kick in the teeth to see faster, cheaper, unlimited products that aren't available to me, from the very ISP that I'm with.

I'm about a hair's breadth from asking for my MAC code. Where is the upside for the loyal customers stuck on slower products Zen?

Zen are using their new MPLS network for much of their FTTx backhaul. The only Zen FTTx customers that remain on WBMC are those, like me, who are on an exchange not (yet) served by the MPLS network. This saves Zen a small fortune in BT Wholesale bandwidth costs.


Zen can't use their new MPLS network for ADSL2+ backhaul, as there's no BT Openreach wholesale ADSL2+ product for them to connect to at exchange level. There are five options for ADSL2+, and it is quite possible to use a different option for each exchange:

* use BT Wholesale WBMC and pay BT Wholesale to haul the data to you (Zen's current option)
* use BT Wholesale WBC and haul the data yourself from the 21CN aggregation points (which would involve Zen in building a new network for ADSL2+ only)
* use WBC and pay someone else for hauling the data from the 21CN aggregation points to you (does anyone offer this service wholesale?)
* install your own LLU ADSL2+ service
* use someone else's LLU ADSL2+ wholesale service


The economics for new investment in ADSL2+ are unlikely to be favourable. The margins on ADSL2+ products are slender and many customers are moving to FTTx as it becomes available.

Zen tried installing LLU ADSL2+ a few years ago and gave up after a few exchanges - I expect there was insufficient return on investment to be worth continuing. They could use the MPLS network to connect to LLU ADSL2+ equipment, but there seems to be no return on investment installing such a setup for the limited number of customers on FTTx served exchanges who are unable or unwilling to take an FTTx product.


There are wholesale ADSL2+ LLU offerings in the marketplace, and there may be a wholesale ADSL2+ WBC offering. So far, Zen has not gone down the route of using alternative ADSL2+ wholesale suppliers to BT Wholesale, and I see no reason to suggest they will do so now. If you want such a service, you'll have to look elsewhere, though it's worth remembering that the future of the Be/O2 wholesale ADSL2+ platform is somewhat unclear at present. The Be/O2 retail customers have been bought by Sky, but I'm not aware of any announcement about the wholesale network.

In reply to a post by stuorguk:

Zen, if your reading this, add IPV6 support, and I will switch my account over to you.

Zen keep saying they're working towards offering IPv6, but see no reason to hurry to do so. However, the lack of IPv6 is becoming an increasingly glaring omission from an otherwise excellent offering.

The demand for IPv6 must be growing steadily, and the barriers receding. Now that pfSense 2.1 has been released, I'm ready for native IPv6. For now, I'm having to use a SixXS tunnel, with the extra overheads that entails (7ms extra latency and 20 bytes per packet for the protocol 41 6in4 encapsulation).

Hopefully Zen will start offering customers a native IPv6 /48 soon, allowing me to get rid of SixXS.

If you work in IT as I do, and manage any webservices that support IPV6 for clients, then you need IPV6.

Seems crazy Zen go after the premium & business end of the ISP market, and yet no IPV6!!

And it's not like IPV6 is rare. I have a plugin in my chrome browser, that shows me what sites are IPV6 enabled, and lots of them are now.

Agreed I have IPv6 and it is a must have for developers who want to check that everything works fine.

Thanks for the detailed response. I understand that there may be economic reasons underpinning the pricing, however this does little to address the gaps between the have's, and have not's, in terms of fibre deployment.

To be charging more, for a slower service, which is capped, is quite frankly a very poor commercial decision, especially in light of the competition's offerings.

I have Sky LLU at my exchange, so could get this very cheaply as I already have their TV service, however I'm don't sure I want their customer service - which really does influence my decision.

Plusnet, however, I've been with before and was happy with. They can give me everything that I want, that I can't get from Zen, and at a cheaper price.

Your ultimate point is correct; there comes a point when you have to vote with your feet unfortunately.

It's sad that Zen, who I've always had the utmost respect for as an ISP, seem to be going down the path of so many other (much worse) ISPs: Only give the customer what they want, when the bottom line starts to be impacted.

I'll just leave this here, and wait a couple of days to see if someone from Zen has something up their sleeve that has yet to be announced.

If not, I'll be getting my MAC code and heading to Plusnet. I'll hopefully see fibre here next year, so I can always come back if Plusnet isn't great.

even BT will have ipv6 very soon (they earlier announced during 2013).

I would have thought zen a specialist isp? would have it.

So 2 things disapoint me with zen, the lack of ipv6 and the seeming move to have mass market policies requiring line rental to have broadband.

But the minimum contract is 12 months, so even if "offers are just around the corner" you won't necessarily be able to take advantage of them immediately.

I was just pointing out that the Zen fibre pricing does not make sense. I am hoping that the Fibre Office pricing is changed soon to match the new unlimited packages, minus the bundled line rental.

Just spoke to a very nice lady ad Zen, and there appears to be some misleading information about.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO MIGRATE YOUR LINE

I have just changed my Fibre Pro (200GB cab @ £45.60 per month) to unlimited Fibre 2 @ £35.60 per month No cap EVERY THING ELSE IS THE SAME, i.e username / password Fixed IP and T&C's

If you also want to migrate your line the costs change to
Unlimited Fibre 2 @ £30 per month
Line Rental @ 15.44 no option for discount for 12 month payment
or
Line Rental + unlimited calls i.e similar to the BT ( not know the exact spec) £ 22.60

Additional costs
Caller ID £0.90 per month
1571 voice mail £ 1.8 per month.

So for me I have a saving of £10 per month and got unlimited usage + I stayed with BT for my line

Well done ZEN

Misleading or missing? Those clever folks at Zen just seem to have added the profit that they would have made on the increased phone rental to the cost of the Fibre Unlimited product. That said, a 'win win' situation for Zen and customers reluctant to move their telephone lines. Interestingly, there is nothing about this on Zen's website or on its forum.

If Unlimited Fibre 2 is available standalone at £35.60 per month including VAT, that's what I shall do. That's only 20p per month more than Fibre Active (100GB/month cap).

I'm still within my minimum 12 month period on Fibre Active, but Zen have previously not objected to tariff changes within minimum periods. I should probably give Zen a ring to find out what my options are.

I just phoned Zen Sales (extended opening until 8pm tonight) and was told the standalone price of Unlimited Fibre 2 is £35.40 per month including VAT - exactly the same as I was paying for Fibre Active.

Unsurprisingly, I asked to switch and now have a regrade order showing in the Customer Portal.

I'm on ADSL2+ at the moment. Fibre has just become available but I'm holding off upgrading until I come back from holiday. I was looking at moving to plusnet as they offer unlimited fibre while keeping the phone with BT. If I can now do this with Zen I'll do that instead. I wonder why a broadband only unlimited fibre option isn't listed on the page in the first message of this thread?

Will you be on a new 12 month contract? Zen T&C's seem to suggest that any FTTC re-grades require agreeing to a new 12 months minimum term.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Will you be on a new 12 month contract? Zen T&C's seem to suggest that any FTTC re-grades require agreeing to a new 12 months minimum term.

I didn't get complete clarity on that point, but am happy to commit to Zen for a further 12 months and assume I have bound myself to a further 12 month period.

If any Zen staff are reading, this thread would welcome some clarity.

In reply to a post by No_One:

I wonder why a broadband only unlimited fibre option isn't listed on the page in the first message of this thread?

I have no idea.

According to the Zen Order Tracker, my order is for:
Zen Fibre Regrade New Product: Unlimited Zen Fibre 2 Bundle: No

I presume "Bundle: No" indicates I'm not moving my phone line to Zen. Can anyone who has moved their phone line to Zen (or already has Zen phone service) confirm that this is shown as "Bundle: Yes"?

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Will you be on a new 12 month contract? Zen T&C's seem to suggest that any FTTC re-grades require agreeing to a new 12 months minimum term.

I didn't get complete clarity on that point, but am happy to commit to Zen for a further 12 months and assume I have bound myself to a further 12 month period.

If any Zen staff are reading, this thread would welcome some clarity.

In fact, the answer seems to be clear from my order history on the Zen customer portal. For some strange reason, the product details of a regraded product show against the original product you ordered (in my case, my September 2004 order for ADSL - Zen Home 1000, I think it was).

The portal confirms "Unlimited Zen Fibre 2" at £29.50/month (so £35.40 including VAT) and shows me as in contract until 07/01/2014, which is the date my original FTTC commitment ended (activation was on 08/01/2013). This indicates I did not take on a further 12 month commitment by changing to Unlimited Fibre 2.


Edit: two minutes after I posted this, the regrade order completed, and the 'in contract' date changed to 19/09/2014. This means I have taken on a new 12 month commitment by changing to the new tariff - though I was happy to do so.

Edited by deleted (Fri 20-Sep-13 21:36:44)

So you have now agreed to unlimited fibre broadband without line rental on a new 12 months term for £35.40 per month (same speeds and same price as you were paying previously) and gained unlimited usage whereas before it was limited to 100GB per month?

In reply to a post by 4M2:

So you have now agreed to unlimited fibre broadband without line rental on a new 12 months term for £35.40 per month (same speeds and same price as you were paying previously) and gained unlimited usage whereas before it was limited to 100GB per month?

Yes. Everything has stayed the same including my 80/20 sync speed (I'm close to the cabinet) other than no downstream usage cap (Zen never counted upstream usage towards any cap) and the new 12 month commitment.

Now that the regrade order is marked as complete, all mention of usage remaining for this month has disappeared from the "View service usage statistics" screen in the portal. I can still view and graph my usage, but the blue/yellow bar showing usage paid for and remaining this month has gone.

I'm a Zen customer for line rental and I also got the email from Zen this morning. When I saw the line rental charge when it's taken with FTTC I thought £15.44 for "cheap calls with no setup fee" was rather high since I only pay £11.22 for line rental on a 30 day minimum term. BTW. My broadband is with another provider.

ok so basically is a surcharge if dont move line, that sounds better.

anyone got a tbb graph on zen for last 2-3 days? so I can see how they looked during the ios7 madness.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

ok so basically is a surcharge if dont move line, that sounds better.

anyone got a tbb graph on zen for last 2-3 days? so I can see how they looked during the ios7 madness.

Here's my BQM graph for the 18th (the same date as in the news article). It shows no discernable effect of the iOS 7 launch whatsoever.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

I'm a Zen customer for line rental and I also got the email from Zen this morning. When I saw the line rental charge when it's taken with FTTC I thought £15.44 for "cheap calls with no setup fee" was rather high since I only pay £11.22 for line rental on a 30 day minimum term. BTW. My broadband is with another provider.

Yes, at face value it appears high; however, by taking the phone with broadband you get unlimited 80/20 broadband for £30 per month. The saving on broadband more than offsets the higher phone rental charge. I have both my broadband and phone with Zen and I was paying £35.40 per month for Fibre Active (100GB) and £12.12 per month for phone with CLID: that is, a total of £47.52 per month. I now pay £46.34 per month for unlimited internet and phone.

thanks, and I assume (if you was using it then) you didnt feel any affect on speeds, snappyness etc?

I'm certainly not criticising your choice of Zen for unlimited fibre broadband and line rental, but based on price for standalone, up to 76Mbps unlimited fibre broadband, Plusnet can do it for £22.49 (Market 2/3 �low cost area� exchange) and then one can take Zen line rental for £11.22 + 90p for caller display...

Edit: however the Zen Fibre Unlimited 2 package has free activation and includes a 12 month minimum term but Plusnet unlimited fibre BB without line rental has a £50 activation fee and it's on a 18 month minimum term

Edited by 4M2 (Sat 21-Sep-13 13:47:14)

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

thanks, and I assume (if you was using it then) you didnt feel any affect on speeds, snappyness etc?

Our Zen connection was in use on Wednesday evening, with no slow down or additional latency noted.

plusnet run a priority system however where proven this past week they can change traffic to different classifications on a whim and they had to squeeze ios traffic right down to preserve other traffic, even when they did that I see complaints on their forums of various performance issues from those nights and have had pm's on here from unhappy plusnet people as well.

Money isnt the only thing that matters for some of us.

The thing holding me back of zen at the moment is the 12 month contract, zen seem to think this isnt a long term contract, to me it is. It seems the FTTC market has made people all too accepting of anti competitive contract lengths, If I had a way to join zen and then leave quickly if there was something I didnt like I would have already signed up. I am also wary of their t&c's regarding faults where they make it clear they will just enforce openreach charges without much of a dispute against openreach. What I am considering at the moment is signing up a 2nd FTTC line to zen.

Edited by Chrysalis (Sat 21-Sep-13 17:41:58)

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

plusnet run a priority system however where proven this past week they can change traffic to different classifications on a whim and they had to squeeze ios traffic right down to preserve other traffic, even when they did that I see complaints on their forums of various performance issues from those nights and have had pm's on here from unhappy plusnet people as well.

I dislike this prioritisation - everyone is essentially paying a similar level, why should an iOS 7 update be slowed down for customer A, because customer B wants to watch iPlayer? I'd prefer all customers to be slowed down by the same amount. (I believe this is how other ISPs operate).

Money isnt the only thing that matters for some of us.

Yep.

The thing holding me back of zen at the moment is the 12 month contract, zen seem to think this isnt a long term contract, to me it is. It seems the FTTC market has made people all too accepting of anti competitive contract lengths, If I had a way to join zen and then leave quickly if there was something I didnt like I would have already signed up. I am also wary of their t&c's regarding faults where they make it clear they will just enforce openreach charges without much of a dispute against openreach. What I am considering at the moment is signing up a 2nd FTTC line to zen.

I think Openreach enforce a minimum 12 month contract on all FTTC connections - I'm happy its not 18 month like BT.

Very tempted by Zen when my 18months is up - even without IPv6.

I haven't experienced vdsl on my line either from Zen or Plusnet so the only thing that I can use as a comparison is price. What stuck me was the increased price of line rental if one took the FTTC service, I currently pay £11.22 (+ 90p for caller display) for line rental on a 30 day minimum term with Zen. If and when FTTC self install becomes available on my line (perhaps summer 2014) then I would be unwilling to accept an increase in the line rental charge, plus the fact that it would be packaged along with the broadband on a 12 month minimum term.

Actually I don't think it's unreasonable for an ISP to put FTTC on a 12 month minimum term but I do think that Zen could have offered BB only without the need for Zen line rental at an increased price and no longer on a 30 day minimum term in their recently announced deals.

Edited by 4M2 (Sat 21-Sep-13 18:12:55)

In reply to a post by jchamier:

I think Openreach enforce a minimum 12 month contract on all FTTC connections - I'm happy its not 18 month like BT.

12 months is the minimum rental period imposed by BT Openreach on the initial contact for an FTTC connection, and, I believe, on migration of an existing FTTC connection to a new ISP.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Actually I don't think it's unreasonable for an ISP to put FTTC on a 12 month minimum term but I do think that Zen could have offered BB only without the need for Zen line rental at an increased price and no longer on a 30 day minimum term in their recently announced deals.

I was able to take Unlimited Fibre 2 as a standalone broadband product at £29.50 per month (£35.40 including VAT) with a 12 month minimum period by talking to Zen sales, though I'm am existing Zen FTTC customer. What is not yet clear is whether Zen will offer the same deal to those who aren't existing Zen FTTC customers.

yeah it might be worth waiting a short time as I think theopenreach 12 month thing is on limited time.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

yeah it might be worth waiting a short time as I think theopenreach 12 month thing is on limited time.

Hopefully - I'm still stuck in contract with BT Infinity until next year anyhow.

For new connections not expecting the 12 months to drop, only the 12 month new term on migrations

I will migrate instead of new line if thats the case.

Edited by Chrysalis (Sun 22-Sep-13 13:16:15)

Does that mean in the future a migration from one FTTC provider to another FTTC provider will not require a 12 month minimum term with the new provider but a new FTTC provision will continue to have a 12 month minimum term?

That is what my take on what ofcom have said

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Does that mean in the future a migration from one FTTC provider to another FTTC provider will not require a 12 month minimum term with the new provider but a new FTTC provision will continue to have a 12 month minimum term?

This would seem to be a sensible and proportionate approach. Initial FTTC installation requires physical activity, so it seems reasonable to allow the imposition of a minimum period to allow for cost recovery. Migration from one FTTC ISP to another merely involves changing the configuration and updating the billing records, which is likely to be entirely automated in most cases.

What happens with a new FTTC provision then: Openreach presumably charge an ISP and then those costs are passed on to an end user by the ISP in the form of an activation fee (where applicable) and covered by a proportion of the broadband costs paid over a 12 months period by the end user?

The BT Openreach price lists for FTTx give details. End user ports have both a connection charge and a rental.

I haven't been following Ofcom's thinking, but I'd expect BT Openreach to argue that they need a 12 month minimum term on initial provision to recover the costs of installation and the expenditure required to make the port available for the end-user to subscribe to.

Thanks for the link

Looks like the connection is currently charged at £92 ex VAT by OR?

Think I'll wait and see if self install fibre and broadband only (no included line rental) is available on a 30 day minimum term before ordering a new provision.

ADSL2+ with a downstream throughput speed of 11Mbps is more than adequate for my needs at the moment

Can this also be delivered over an FTTP connection as OR won't roll out FTTC here.

Technically yes. Need to speak to Zen.

40/10 and 80/20 products from openreach are same price no matter whether fttc or fttp

The reason for my question is that a colleague had FTTP installed under trial conditions through Zen and was being charged in line with their FTTC tariff.

I was at the time a Zen customer (and still am for line rental) so asked sales whether the tariff would stay the same if I took it on and was told at the time the pricing structure was likely to be different but no detail could be provided at the time, I did not proceed with the order as really didn't want a nasty bill hike at some point after having coughed up the install fee and having the extra line plant installed.

However at the time they didn't have their own kit active in exchanges outside Greater Manchester and Yorkshire so presumably this now means it is being delivered via their own kit.

In reply to a post by AndrewW:

Just spoke to a very nice lady ad Zen, and there appears to be some misleading information about.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO MIGRATE YOUR LINE

Meh, not so much 'well done' as their website ("Fibre Optic Broadband & Phone Packages") is lying. And I'm not an existing Zen customer either so it's not much use to me if you have to be an existing customer.

Not sure exactly what you mean by your first point. but i believe on your 2nd point this offer will be availble to new customers soon. Zen just wanted to offer existing customers the first oppertunity to take advantage of the offer.

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by stuorguk:

Zen, if your reading this, add IPV6 support, and I will switch my account over to you.

Zen keep saying they're working towards offering IPv6, but see no reason to hurry to do so. However, the lack of IPv6 is becoming an increasingly glaring omission from an otherwise excellent offering.

The demand for IPv6 must be growing steadily, and the barriers receding. Now that pfSense 2.1 has been released, I'm ready for native IPv6. For now, I'm having to use a SixXS tunnel, with the extra overheads that entails (7ms extra latency and 20 bytes per packet for the protocol 41 6in4 encapsulation).

Hopefully Zen will start offering customers a native IPv6 /48 soon, allowing me to get rid of SixXS.

Totally agree with the IPv6 thing. I might switch to IDNET (as they only have a 1 month contract) for my IPv6 until Zen offer IPv6, then switch to Zen unlimited.

In reply to a post by AndrewW:

Not sure exactly what you mean by your first point. but i believe on your 2nd point this offer will be availble to new customers soon. Zen just wanted to offer existing customers the first oppertunity to take advantage of the offer.

Well, good, wake me up when it's available to new customers. And when they offer native IPv6. Then I'll switch to Zen.

Thank you for this, I've just moved my 200gb Pro to this.

Saves me some money, didn't bother Zen that much as I use on average around 110gb/month.

The Zen website has now gone fully live with online orders for new and existing customers.
We have updated our listings accordingly. The old fibre packages are now no longer listed.

The extra cost of voice line rental on business includes a 48 hour estimated fault fix time.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

The Zen website has now gone fully live with online orders for new and existing customers.
We have updated our listings accordingly. The old fibre packages are now no longer listed.

The extra cost of voice line rental on business includes a 48 hour estimated fault fix time.

How about you provide a broadband-only alternative where we just pay the extra that we would have paid for the Zen line rental? I'd be prepared to pay that as long as I don't have to switch my line over.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

How about you provide a broadband-only alternative where we just pay the extra that we would have paid for the Zen line rental? I'd be prepared to pay that as long as I don't have to switch my line over.

Give Zen sales a ring on 01706 902000. They were certainly happy to take orders from existing Zen customers for 'broadband only' FTTC on the new unlimited tariffs. They may be prepared to do the same for new customers, though it looks like they are only offering the older capped tariffs at a newly reduced price for 'broadband only' customers.

My phone line is with BT Retail. As an existing Zen FTTC customer, I was able to move to Unlimited Fibre 2 at £29.50/month plus VAT (£35.40/month including VAT).

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

How about you provide a broadband-only alternative where we just pay the extra that we would have paid for the Zen line rental? I'd be prepared to pay that as long as I don't have to switch my line over.

Give Zen sales a ring on 01706 902000. They were certainly happy to take orders from existing Zen customers for 'broadband only' FTTC on the new unlimited tariffs. They may be prepared to do the same for new customers, though it looks like they are only offering the older capped tariffs at a newly reduced price for 'broadband only' customers.

My phone line is with BT Retail. As an existing Zen FTTC customer, I was able to move to Unlimited Fibre 2 at £29.50/month plus VAT (£35.40/month including VAT).

As I've said before I'm not an existing Zen customer so that doesn't apply to me.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

In reply to a post by David_W:

Give Zen sales a ring on 01706 902000. They were certainly happy to take orders from existing Zen customers for 'broadband only' FTTC on the new unlimited tariffs. They may be prepared to do the same for new customers, though it looks like they are only offering the older capped tariffs at a newly reduced price for 'broadband only' customers.

As I've said before I'm not an existing Zen customer so that doesn't apply to me.

Zen sales have given you a definite 'no', then? If so, that's a shame.

I agree it was a bad move by Zen to offer FTTC as part of a line rental and broadband package for new customers. They could have increased the price a little for unlimited broadband only and kept the line rental separate at £11.22 if required.

Xilo/uno have no plans to do the same with FTTC but, of course, they don't do line rental, except as part of a TTB full LLU ADSL2+ resold deal.

Edited by 4M2 (Sat 28-Sep-13 13:25:10)

So, as an existing Zen ADSL customer I can get fibre unlimited and keep my line with BT. Is this something that can only be ordered by phone as I can't see any options for it online?

In reply to a post by No_One:

So, as an existing Zen ADSL customer I can get fibre unlimited and keep my line with BT. Is this something that can only be ordered by phone as I can't see any options for it online?

I'm not sure that has been established yet.


Existing Zen FTTx customers have been allowed to migrate to the unlimited products without moving their phone line to Zen. This involves paying more than the headline price, and can only be arranged by phoning Zen sales.

Those who aren't Zen customers are apparently required to move their phone line to Zen in order to obtain the new FTTx products.

I'm not sure anyone has asked yet about existing Zen ADSL customers who want to take one of the new fibre products without moving the phone to Zen. I suggest you given Zen sales a ring and ask.

I have to just noticed these new packages and was already thinking about moving my line to Zen. For me though, I'm on Zen Fibre Active on a 24 month contract (7 months in).

I would really like to move to the Unlimited Fibre 2 (home package) with the line rental. Does anyone know if Zen are allowing existing customers in contract to move over like this?

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

How about you provide a broadband-only alternative where we just pay the extra that we would have paid for the Zen line rental? I'd be prepared to pay that as long as I don't have to switch my line over.

Give Zen sales a ring on 01706 902000. They were certainly happy to take orders from existing Zen customers for 'broadband only' FTTC on the new unlimited tariffs.

ALL existing Zen customers or just existing fibre customers? What if I signed up for, say, Zen Active ADSL, for one month, and then asked to switch?

In reply to a post by gadago:

I have to just noticed these new packages and was already thinking about moving my line to Zen. For me though, I'm on Zen Fibre Active on a 24 month contract (7 months in).

I would really like to move to the Unlimited Fibre 2 (home package) with the line rental. Does anyone know if Zen are allowing existing customers in contract to move over like this?

There has been mention in Zen's own forum of early-termination fees in some circumstances when switching to the new products. I've covered this in more detail the new thread about unlimited FTTx without a phone line, though I appreciate you are intending to switch your phone line to Zen.

You may well have to pay some sort of fee because you took free install initially - the best thing is to ring Zen sales (01706 902000) and ask about your situation. They're open today (Sunday) until 1pm.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

How about you provide a broadband-only alternative where we just pay the extra that we would have paid for the Zen line rental? I'd be prepared to pay that as long as I don't have to switch my line over.

Give Zen sales a ring on 01706 902000. They were certainly happy to take orders from existing Zen customers for 'broadband only' FTTC on the new unlimited tariffs.

ALL existing Zen customers or just existing fibre customers? What if I signed up for, say, Zen Active ADSL, for one month, and then asked to switch?

Existing FTTx customers.

At the moment, no existing Zen ADSL customers have asked Zen sales about switching to Zen unlimited FTTx without a Zen phone line and reported back here, as I've mentioned in the new thread about Zen unlimited FTTx without a Zen phone line.

If Zen will allow existing ADSL customers to switch to unlimited FTTx without taking a Zen phone line, they may limit this to those who had Zen ADSL before the unlimited FTTx products were announced. As such, it's impossible to be certain you can go to unlimited FTTx without a Zen phone line via a new Zen ADSL connection for a month until someone tries it. However, if Zen refuse to allow those who had Zen ADSL before these packages were announced to take unlimited FTTx without a Zen phone line, you can be certain that going via a new Zen ADSL connection is a non-starter.

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by gadago:

I have to just noticed these new packages and was already thinking about moving my line to Zen. For me though, I'm on Zen Fibre Active on a 24 month contract (7 months in).

I would really like to move to the Unlimited Fibre 2 (home package) with the line rental. Does anyone know if Zen are allowing existing customers in contract to move over like this?

There has been mention in Zen's own forum of early-termination fees in some circumstances when switching to the new products. I've covered this in more detail the new thread about unlimited FTTx without a phone line, though I appreciate you are intending to switch your phone line to Zen.

You may well have to pay some sort of fee because you took free install initially - the best thing is to ring Zen sales (01706 902000) and ask about your situation. They're open today (Sunday) until 1pm.

Nope, sales are open Mon-Fri. Only technical support (0845 0589009) is open on weekends 9:00-17:00.

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Nope, sales are open Mon-Fri. Only technical support (0845 0589009) is open on weekends 9:00-17:00.

Usually that is the case, but on the Fibre and Phone packages page, it mentions extended opening hours at present - look at the top right.

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by jez9999:

Nope, sales are open Mon-Fri. Only technical support (0845 0589009) is open on weekends 9:00-17:00.

Usually that is the case, but on the Fibre and Phone packages page, it mentions extended opening hours at present - look at the top right.

Then that page is lying. I called them at about 12:00 on 01706 902000 and pressed 1 for sales. Got a message saying they were closed.

A definite 'yes' actually! You need to phone sales, but you can move your broadband service to unlimited fibre without moving your phone service.

Edited by jez9999 (Mon 30-Sep-13 17:05:26)

It's great news that new customers can have Zen unlimited FTTC without a Zen phone line if you phone Zen sales and ask.

It's understandable that Zen would rather sell phone and broadband packages, which seem to be becoming the industry norm, but their product portfolio would have felt rather 'thin' without good 'broadband only' packages.

Then that page is lying. I called them at about 12:00 on 01706 902000 and pressed 1 for sales. Got a message saying they were closed.

Hi there, I've just checked on this for you the 01706 902000 number for sales / customer services numbers are not open on sundays. Their extended hours are:

Monday to Friday: 9am - 8pm
Saturday: 9am - 1pm

I am under the impression there was a trial on another number with sunday hours as well though I don't know for certain if this is still in place it was however not for the sales and customers services number.

I think there was Sunday opening on the weekend after the initial announcement to existing customers (when the 'Order Now' buttons were an instruction to call sales on a special number). By the time we got to last Sunday (one week after), mention of Sunday opening had not been removed from the page. I posted that sales were open in good faith, mirroring what the web page said at the time.

The page now accords with the times you state, Aaron.