Terrible speeds - exchange congestion

So I've been with Zen for about 6 weeks now and the connection has been rubbish from day 1 but I gave the connection some time to do its DLM training etc. I logged a fault with Zen a few weeks ago and nothing seems to be happening about it. This is supposed to be an FTTC max speed connection...

They have followed it up with me and told me it's a known issue but they wont tell me what the issue actually is and apparently the engineers made some changes somewhere which seems to have made things worse and I've been told because its now Xmas that nothing more will get done now until the new year even thou i logged it about 10 days before xmas.........

The internet connection is basically unusable in the evenings due to the timeouts, packet loss and general rubbish speeds so It clearly seems to be an exchange/congestion issue so just wondering how much luck ppl have had getting anything similar resolved?

edit: I did find this thread and wonder if its related to the issues im having....
six months to fix throughput problem

Edited by deleted (Sat 30-Dec-17 22:30:56)

Have you some router stats you can post ?

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Have you some router stats you can post ?

these ones?

dsl stats

Summat not right there 46 meg downstream on 15db line attenuation.

Can you describe the set up of what�s connected how in your property ?

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Summat not right there 46 meg downstream on 15db line attenuation.

Can you describe the set up of what�s connected how in your property ?

Its just the supplied Fritz box, connected to the master socket. No phones or anything connected but I have no idea what the wiring is like. I also questioned them about the high attenuation but they didn't seem concerned.

Spent along time using vdsl back in New Zealand so know it reasonably well hence the post since I know somethings wrong but don't feel like they actually know the issue even thou they are saying they do.....

In reply to a post by Jekkyl:

Its just the supplied Fritz box

Reading this thread

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/unhappiness/4556600...

it may be that your Fritzbox is the cause of the low throughput, probably worth rolling back the firmware on the router to see what happens. Also if you can, try a different different router on your line (borrow one from family/friend/neighbour), this will at least confirm if the fritzbox is to blame in any way.

.... yep, and maybe borrow a corded phone and check the line for a dialling tone/noise.

I've used both fritz box 7490 and 3490 with Zen and not had any issues

Have a look at this software http://www.gmwsoftware.co.uk/

JD's auto speed tested, will test your connection at various intervals. I used this with Zen when I had high packet loss and low download speed that Zen denied existed.

Once I was able to show them the stats they did take the fault seriously, and did find a config fault on one of their gateways.

I agree tho that your downstream speed isn't right. Ive a 13dB line and get full 80 meg. Can you post up a pic of the Fritzbox spectrum?

In reply to a post by gregormac:

I've used both fritz box 7490 and 3490 with Zen and not had any issues

Have a look at this software http://www.gmwsoftware.co.uk/

JD's auto speed tested, will test your connection at various intervals. I used this with Zen when I had high packet loss and low download speed that Zen denied existed.

Once I was able to show them the stats they did take the fault seriously, and did find a config fault on one of their gateways.

I agree tho that your downstream speed isn't right. Ive a 13dB line and get full 80 meg. Can you post up a pic of the Fritzbox spectrum?

Will check that software out. Here's the spectrum
Spectrum

Im going to talk to them again tomorrow before starting to change the firmware etc as it does only really happen in the evenings. But that doesn't really explain the DSL stats.

Morning, Ok you have something odd happening in the lower frequencies. That its showing drop outs over the lower band but not into the higher points to something noisy on the line affecting only the lower frequencies which is very odd.

Do you have a filter connected or a VDSL faceplate? You say you have no phone connected. Do you know if there is any extension wires connected if you open up the socket? Can you take Pics of how its connected to the BT master socket and I'll be able to advise further

In reply to a post by gregormac:

Morning, Ok you have something odd happening in the lower frequencies. That its showing drop outs over the lower band but not into the higher points to something noisy on the line affecting only the lower frequencies which is very odd.

Do you have a filter connected or a VDSL faceplate? You say you have no phone connected. Do you know if there is any extension wires connected if you open up the socket? Can you take Pics of how its connected to the BT master socket and I'll be able to advise further

Its just a master socket with 2 connections and I plug the router into the top one. I've also taken the face off and connected into the test port and used the supplied filter which made no difference.
Ill take some photos when I get home, its a rental so I don't know the wiring or history unfortunately

Hi mate,
ok sounds more and more like there is a fault on the line, especially if you have plugged into the test port. That would rule out any internal wiring problems. Suggest that you get hold of a phone handset, plug it in and dial 17070. This is the open reach line test facility. Do the quiet line test and listen for any noise on the line.. I suspect there might well be.
Who is the voice line with? Some ISP's have online facilities to run the BT Fast test that would show if there was a problem in the line.

Phoneline and internet all with Zen. Ive finally got hold of someone who seems to have progressed it forward and they are moving me to another network as everything seems to be pointing to congestion

I'm glad they are doing something finally to try and resolve it but it is a shame its has taken almost a month to get to this point and another 10 business days for it to get processed...

Photos of the socket and internals below anyway

socket 1
Socket 2
Socket 3

Hi,

Ok a Mk 1 VDSl faceplate, old but not too bad and the wiring looks to be OK.

They will be moving you onto their own network Id suspect, but that wont address the low DSL stats. Id still try a phone and see if there is noise and rule that out.

In reply to a post by gregormac:

Hi,

Ok a Mk 1 VDSl faceplate, old but not too bad and the wiring looks to be OK.

They will be moving you onto their own network Id suspect, but that wont address the low DSL stats. Id still try a phone and see if there is noise and rule that out.

Yea I've ordered a cheap phone just to check the line. Is it worth replacing the faceplate?

So got a phone and did the quiet line test and couldn't hear anything obvious. Guess ill wait for the changeover and go from there.

I ran that speed tester software and the line and speeds all appear fine until about 4pm till approx 12pm.

Doesn't really explain the weird vdsl spectrum but....

Same here rubbish downloads evening time , day time 73 MBPS no problem then night time up until about midnight is way down

Download speed achieved during the test was - 25.04 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 40 Mbps-74.1 Mbps .
Additional Information:
IP Profile for your line is - 74.1 Mbps 74.1 Mbps
Max Achievable Speed

Upload speed achieved during the test was - 15.46Mbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 20 Mbps

This test was not conclusive and further testing is required.This might be useful for your Broadband Service Provider to investigate the fault.
If you wish to carry out further tests,please click on 'Continue' button.If not, please close the window using 'Exit' button and contact your ISP for further assistance with these results.

Day time

Edited by deezel (Mon 08-Jan-18 22:01:36)

£35-40 a month for this rubbish !!!!!!

Have you contacted our Technical Support team?

Yes , a while ago they asked me to do some speed tests which I did and not heard anything since
no problem day time but evening time is really slow at times

Are you out of contract? With mass market ISPs e.g. BT this type of congestion is virtually unheard of nowadays.

I'm no longer with BT, but when I was my speedtests were like this (on 55meg):
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/14716296064...
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/14770058691...
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/14796806831...
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/14833184342...

On Sky currently, no slowdowns either, but a bit of QOS on their Sky Q router.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Thu 11-Jan-18 22:21:23)

Do you have some sort of personal vendetta against small market ISP's ? Because this is one of many posts recently I've read by you spouting off [censored] about congestion not being an issue on mass market ISP's and how these small ISP's with such good reputation are pointless.

My area has many mass market isp's VM/Sky/BT All as it stand's have congestion at peak times.

The best out of the 3 being VM currently with Sky being alot better than BT.


Congestion can happen to any ISP at least with Zen he can speak to someone who can either provide a fix date or find the problem and or allow him to migrate to another ISP if not happy.


When this line was installed here I was on BT option 2. in peak times couldnt get more than 20Mbit many many many phonecalls later i decided to go down the CEO complaints office route and even they couldn't give a satisfactory fix date and allowed me to migrate to another ISP with no penalty and compensated me.



So as much as you are entitled to have you're own opinion I hope when other users who are not regulars on this forum actually do their own homework regarding this than take your advice cause simply it is utter garbage.

Maybe you should enquire about a weekend sales job with BT.

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

Are you out of contract? With mass market ISPs e.g. BT this type of congestion is virtually unheard of nowadays.

I'm no longer with BT, but when I was my speedtests were like this (on 55meg):
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/14716296064...
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/14770058691...
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/14796806831...
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/14833184342...

On Sky currently, no slowdowns either, but a bit of QOS on their Sky Q router.

If you send me a PM with your details I'll look into it for you.

No vendetta, just only see congestion posts recently on small ISPs, usually the same ISPs, having used a couple myself I also found them to be significantly worse.

Typical offenders are Zen, Post Office, Vodafone, SSE, Virginmedia. I avoid recommending these, I would recommend certain small providers, namely AAISP who to-date have always responded politely and resolved issues.

It's unlikely you have congestion on all of the major mass market ISPs in the same location, especially if you are referring to fibre. Due to network layout, congestion was more localised on ADSL/ADSL2+ than fibre (FTTC/FTTH).

For reference VM assign tickets and fix dates, as well as reducing the monthly cost.

BT will allow you to leave if you escalate the case and congestion is confirmed, as you experienced.

Due to the head-end exchanges on fibre, we see less cases of congestion on mass market fibre ISPs. It is more rare the congestion ends up very localised for long periods of time.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Fri 12-Jan-18 11:52:23)

I mean I reside in this location and use the internet in this location not quite sure what you mean by unlikely but I can say that within the last 12 months Sky/VM/BT have all had congestion in the area like I said with the worst being BT.

Majority is FTTC on the Sky/BT side. Which indeed has congestion. I could go into detail why this area has congestion on Sky and BT but i feel it would be a waste of my time.

Could you provide any factual statistics that 'we' see less congestion on mass market ISP's other than yet another personal statement which has no merit.

I'm very aware of the process VM have for fix dates and if you take a look around on their own forums some fix dates move rather often or don't happen for a very long time.

Again in my eyes your posts are very targeted at Zen and small number of providers discussed on here.

If you want a sample base of people having problems with mass market ISPs i suggest you take a look at the ISP forums cause it would seem you are oblivious to them if you are making such bold statements.

But more back to the point...

Congestion can happen on any ISP. Some of these small ISP like Zen/IDnet/AAISP provide a good support service and seriously lets just be honest here it's far easier to get something dealt with properly with these providers rather than the Mass Market ISP's.


I agree as of late I have seen alot of posts regarding Zen but if these users who have problems don't actively engage with their provider to sort such issue out then the problem isn't just the ISP. Take you're money elsewhere.

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

No vendetta, just only see congestion posts recently on small ISPs, usually the same ISPs, having used a couple myself I also found them to be significantly worse.

Typical offenders are Zen, Post Office, Vodafone, SSE, Virginmedia. I avoid recommending these, I would recommend certain small providers, namely AAISP who to-date have always responded politely and resolved issues.

It's unlikely you have congestion on all of the major mass market ISPs in the same location, especially if you are referring to fibre. Due to network layout, congestion was more localised on ADSL/ADSL2+ than fibre (FTTC/FTTH).

For reference VM assign tickets and fix dates, as well as reducing the monthly cost.

BT will allow you to leave if you escalate the case and congestion is confirmed, as you experienced.

Due to the head-end exchanges on fibre, we see less cases of congestion on mass market fibre ISPs. It is more rare the congestion ends up very localised for long periods of time.

I too feel much more confident with smaller ISPs actually trying to get to the bottom of issues, particularly those that are not clear line fault issues.

If you complain to mass market ISPs about single thread issues, you are much less likely to get any traction with them in my view.

I'm really not certain that the mass market ISPs are any better at managing bandwidth than the smaller ISPs either. Surely it's just a matter of scale.

I know Zen have had well publicised single thread speed issues, but for the most part these have been resolved by their Network Ops team and seem to down to equipment configuration rather than a fundamental congestion issue either at cabinets, the exchanges or the Zen backhaul.

Interestingly neither jdigz7 nor me get anything like your continuity of single thread performance, but neither of us see jumping to BT, Sky or Virgin as the way forward. As I am posting on the Zen board, I have to say I would rather go with Zen than any of the mass market players, despite this ongoing thread.

My single thread performance on mass market ISPs has been perfect, period. I have dealt with congestion on ISPs also, all mass market.

I post on BT Forums and Sky Forums, with 5000+ posts there also so I see the congestion issues and likewise often see them followed to completion. In terms of mass market ISP not dealing with congestion, definitely first level on the phone do little, but as the complaint escalates it is absolutely taken seriously.

Plenty of the "congestion" on BT is indeed not due to congestion, but rather the HomeHub 5 having throughput issues, with speeds fixing around 30Mbps. There are known issues on HH5A and HH5B worth exploring, which is something we do over on the BT Forums.

Perhaps my personal preference for Mass Market is my personal knowledge of who to escalate to, and hence I can get good results on those ISPs.

Where congestion is valid it often affects large numbers and is resolved quickly in my experience,

Nothing against small players, but absolutely seen too many cases where it has turned personal very quickly with these small providers, in ways unheard of with a bigger provider. That alone is enough to put me off.

Anyway, this is distracting from the OPs thread. My suggestion is to see if Zen can resolve, if not, move on.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Fri 12-Jan-18 14:00:01)

We're very happy to get to the bottom of the problem. If the OP provides me with some details I'll ensure we do everything possible to get the problem resolved.

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

No vendetta, just only see congestion posts recently on small ISPs, usually the same ISPs, having used a couple myself I also found them to be significantly worse.

Typical offenders are Zen, Post Office, Vodafone, SSE, Virginmedia. I avoid recommending these, I would recommend certain small providers, namely AAISP who to-date have always responded politely and resolved issues.

It's unlikely you have congestion on all of the major mass market ISPs in the same location, especially if you are referring to fibre. Due to network layout, congestion was more localised on ADSL/ADSL2+ than fibre (FTTC/FTTH).

For reference VM assign tickets and fix dates, as well as reducing the monthly cost.

BT will allow you to leave if you escalate the case and congestion is confirmed, as you experienced.

Due to the head-end exchanges on fibre, we see less cases of congestion on mass market fibre ISPs. It is more rare the congestion ends up very localised for long periods of time.

Not always true as if the mass market ISP uses BT WBMC then the SVLAN will stay the same even after migration, i know because it happened to me, at least Zen got my circuit moved to a different svlan , both zen and Plusnet used the same BT wholesale backhaul, the difference was that at least zen did something about it

Edited by tommy45 (Sat 13-Jan-18 02:15:53)

Issue got sorted , they changed my connection and all appears to be fixed now

Edited by deleted (Thu 18-Jan-18 19:04:12)

I for the most part agree with what you saying, even VM now seem to be taking congestion seriously as well.

The problem the small players have is I see like this.

1 - They not as cash rich, so wont have the cashflow to have too much excess capacity in cases where its expensive, meaning they more likely to react to congestion rather than upgrade before it happens.
2 - They dont have the benefit of having a massive customer base, the higher density of customers on a shared platform, the easier it is to contend the product without it been visible. e.g. 1000 customers on a gigabit uplink is preferable to 100 on a 100mbit uplink even tho they the same contention ratio. (also gives economy of scale)
3 - The large isps I think are more likely to attract the grannies etc. who pay for broadband but barely use it. Which again makes it easier to contend without it been visible.

I think revk mentioned AAISP have a high average utilisation per line compared to other isp's which doesnt surprise me one bit, but of course AAISP charge enough and apply a usage limit so they can manage it.

As you said one can gouge the severeness of an issue by checking public forums, the likes of BT and sky have a much bigger customer base than zen, but the level of cases dont reflect an equal level of congestion.

I got no idea what the issue is with zen, but I find it concerning as the issues go away, then come back, a user has reported a planned upgrade on his exchange is going to take several months, but zen did acknowledge the problem and are moving him to alternative backhaul.

Edited by Chrysalis (Sun 21-Jan-18 17:27:29)

Seen users on the BT forums moving from Zen to BT and commenting how surprised they are at the performance boost, it seems plenty of users on Zen struggle with streaming and comment their speedtest.net displayed good speeds - it's the age old single-threaded problem.

I am 100% not against small ISPs, but I have been on these forums from around 2005, and in that time I have seen time and time over the same story, an initially amazingly rated small ISP which everyone shouts and raves home about, over time it begins to display problems e.g. congestion, slower than usual CS response times, and in plenty of cases eventually the ISP sinks. I have seen users with small ISPs be left with no connection literally overnight, and cases of a once amazingly rated small ISP which doesn't respond to customer emails at all, or answer phone calls (I won't mention names, but a few of the old timers on here will absolutely know who).

I have also time and time over seen the personal nature small providers apply, to the extent they take offence and become incredibly rude / unhelpful, once that happens they do nothing to help. It takes one comment from a customer that changes the whole dynamic. There is little escalation at this stage, it's far too personal, whereas with a mass market BT, you can escalate to executive complaints and irrespective they will wipe the slate clean and do everything to get you sorted, assigning a complaints handler who does call back without a personal grudge.

I have done the small ISPs, at one point I had 2 lines and one of them was a smaller provider, to-date everyone in my home has defaulted for the mass-market WiFi commenting "it doesn't buffer" or something similar. Always hard to tell if others in the house are just bias to a bigger more known name, likely the case, but in the end I had 1 TalkTalk line and 1 BT Line, and I must say I had 76Mbps unlimited fibre, for £17.70 including the line rental & my single thread was perfect.

I now just use a sky connection, as the Sky Q is so expensive.

Must state I have experienced congestion on both Sky and Virginmedia, neither held me to contract and with a handful of calls I was able to go on my merry way. I would go back to either ISP, and in-fact am back on Sky.

According to Zen my fault is exchange congestion morning speeds fine after 6 pm really slow

Are you testing wired or wireless? The reason I ask is 2.4Ghz can become super congested at nights, I often get less than 20Mbps over it during evenings, and at 3AM can pull over 70Mbps+ on 2.4Ghz.

Your stats are not the typical congestion, as your X6 result is also bad, you normally see the x6 quite a bit faster, there are some extreme cases of congestion where this occurs - the single and multi thread both being slow and roughly the same speed. If indeed this is the case, I think Zen should fix ASAP or release you from contract.

How long left on your contract?

For fibre your latency is also a bit high, I would expect sub 20ms typically.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Sun 21-Jan-18 22:39:39)

Always use wired only use wireless 5 ghz for phone , latency is always high on TBB tester on speed test net it's always 12 to 14 ms

Anyway Zen is sorting it out , been with Zen a good few years now and always found them better than a few other isp's i have been with !