Zen over Cityfibre

Is it symmetrical? Vodafone ‘Gigafast’ currently is and looking to switch, but only get the options for 900 down 100 up via the Zen site (this area also has Openreach FTTP).

In reply to a post by Binary_Digit:

Is it symmetrical? Vodafone ‘Gigafast’ currently is and looking to switch, but only get the options for 900 down 100 up via the Zen site (this area also has Openreach FTTP).

Zen over CityFibre is definitely symmetrical.

Are you sure Cityfibre Gigafast is available via Zen in your area?
Its not a given, Zen only have a few areas at the moment, what town/city are you in?

This is a good point. Cityfibre have been on our estate for quite a while now, and using my address on the Zen site, it offers me the Cityfibre packages, but when you call to change, it's not actually available.

I'm in North Yorkshire on Zen 1gbit on cityfibre it's 940mbit up n down totally symmetrical to confirm.

CityFibre is available where I am in Aberdeen and I'm currently on VF 900/900 and comfortable receive it, Zens website shows the CityFibre packages as available to me, but the upload is advertised as the openreach style 900 down 100 up etc.

I assume this is a just a marketing things and the actual delivered service is symmetric but they just keep the advertising consistent between CF and OR areas?

In reply to a post by connormill:

I assume this is a just a marketing things and the actual delivered service is symmetric but they just keep the advertising consistent between CF and OR areas?

Pretty much yes.
Zen don't provide any asymmetric packages over CityFibre.

Zen is only available to part of Aberdeen I believe.
Some areas are still within the Vodafone exclusivity contract.

I have just spoken with Zen to place an order after registering interest for their Cityfibre service last year, they confirmed to me that they are not offering a symmetrical service over CF and that the speeds are aligned with the Openreach FTTP packages. I pushed on this point with the rep who was confident that the service was not symmetrical and a 900/100 service and that this decision was made after the trial cities.

As such I've not proceeded with the order; as I already have the Openreach 900/120 package.

@J0hn83 - are you sure your information is correct for all locations and now that the CityFibre packages are available nationwide?

Yes. It will be symmetrical. 110%

Zen do not know their [censored] from their elbow I'm afraid. There are identical threads on here where Zen have told users it will be 110Mb/s upload and it was 900Mb/s+.

Thanks j0hn83 - I guess I will try call them again and try to get through to someone who can confirm this!

In reply to a post by trillium:

Thanks j0hn83 - I guess I will try call them again and try to get through to someone who can confirm this!

I would definitely press the issue if that's the service you want.

I received a very helpful reply from Ajays, a member of Zen staff on these forums.
He's confirmed it's symmetrical and the reasons for the advertising the lower upstream rates.

Hi John, thanks for reaching out.

This is all linked to our obligations as a signatory of Ofcom's speeds code of practice.

Ofcom require Zen to advertise speeds based on the results of speeds tests run under a set of defined principles.

Along with TalkTalk, Zen are the only signatories using City Fibre's network.

Before we're allowed to advertise the increased upload speeds we need to connect and measure the speeds from a panel of test customers. The panel needs to be sufficiently large that it is statistically representative for each of the different speed packages we offer and so that it takes into account any differences between cities.

Our CPE doesn't have an Ofcom approved speed testing service built in, so we use SamKnows white boxes to gather the evidence we need to provide to Ofcom.

In the meantime the speed test data we have is based on Openreach FTTP. Hence the speeds you see on our website and that our sales teams are obliged to provide.

So, in summary, customer's upload speeds are not capped at the Openreach profile rates. But until we have the appropriate evidence to back clams of higher upload speeds, we are continuing to advertise a single set of profiles across both networks. Better to under promise and over deliver than the other way around.

I hope that all makes sense. And believe me it's quite frustrating that we can not shout about the higher upload speeds in the way we'd like to.

Best regards,

Andrew

Thanks j0hn83,

I've reached out to Ajays to see if he can connect me with someone in Sales who can help.

I would also like to thank you for posting this response.
City Fiber have just gone live where I am and I have been talking to Zen sales on the phone today who insisted it was capped to 100M up (even when I tried to suggest other ISPs were all offering 900/900) They failed to mention the "marketing" and ofcom stuff.

Zen were my preferred ISP and the above was putting me off somewhat - although to be fair, the lack of clarity or or inability to explain is also quite of putting so I'm still not sure if Zen is the right place for me - but at least I have a little more confidence in what I have read elsewhere!

Hi Philg,

I have placed an order with Zen following on from the above, I'll be sure to reply with my experience once my service goes live (engineers fitted the ONT today, but unfortunately I have some blocked ducting so I'm waiting a follow on appointment).

Cheers.

Thanks - that would be really useful!

Ended up not going with them as to move to them, CityFibre has no method of migration between ISPs, so would involve cancelling the Vodafone Cityfibre connection, waiting several days without broadband whilst it clears on their system, then order Zen and get the first available ‘install’ day.. it sounded ridiculous so had it escalated but got the same answer.

I did however sign up another family member with Zen and it is symmetrical, 900/900. Just they as mentioned above don’t have enough Ofcom data to claim otherwise.

Just another year and the new ‘one touch switch’ process comes into force from Ofcom:

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/09/ofcom-...

However agreed, it’s pretty shambolic that CF don’t have a properly vetted/tested internal process to seamlessly switch between their own serving ISP’s now.

My most recent ISP swap on Openreach FTTP, I had a grand total of 12 seconds of downtime….

Edited by Pheasant (Mon 24-Jan-22 23:42:18)

This is both reasonable (in terms of Zen following the advertising rules) and at the same time silly (in terms of matters of fact).

IMHO, I can understand that Zen cannot advertise the service as symmetrical in a Sales context.
However if escalated to pre-sale support as a technical query it should then be ok to provide answers containing only factual statements and clarifications about how the service is implemented, since it is not a matter of opinion nor about averages of percentages of the existing customer base.

Edited by prlzx (Tue 25-Jan-22 00:24:29)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

I received a very helpful reply from Ajays, a member of Zen staff on these forums.
He's confirmed it's symmetrical and the reasons for the advertising the lower upstream rates.

Hi John, thanks for reaching out.

This is all linked to our obligations as a signatory of Ofcom's speeds code of practice.

Ofcom require Zen to advertise speeds based on the results of speeds tests run under a set of defined principles.

Along with TalkTalk, Zen are the only signatories using City Fibre's network.

Before we're allowed to advertise the increased upload speeds we need to connect and measure the speeds from a panel of test customers. The panel needs to be sufficiently large that it is statistically representative for each of the different speed packages we offer and so that it takes into account any differences between cities.

Our CPE doesn't have an Ofcom approved speed testing service built in, so we use SamKnows white boxes to gather the evidence we need to provide to Ofcom.

In the meantime the speed test data we have is based on Openreach FTTP. Hence the speeds you see on our website and that our sales teams are obliged to provide.

So, in summary, customer's upload speeds are not capped at the Openreach profile rates. But until we have the appropriate evidence to back clams of higher upload speeds, we are continuing to advertise a single set of profiles across both networks. Better to under promise and over deliver than the other way around.

I hope that all makes sense. And believe me it's quite frustrating that we can not shout about the higher upload speeds in the way we'd like to.

Best regards,

Andrew

Ok thats good to know, shows the ofcom stuff is a bit flawed as well, I will edit my post in the other thread.

Hi philg,

My order has been completed. I had some delays as there was a collapsed duct between the street and my house which needed to be dug out; the civil works team that do this are working to around a month lead time in my area.

Nevertheless, my service is now live and so far I am happy;

The speeds are symmetrical, my latency to London (from Leeds) has increased ever so slightly compared to previous BT FTTP (~4ms) and all of this seems stable from my ~24 hours since going live.

https://imgur.com/B2Rj8mN shows hourly latency and throughput tests which I plan to run for a week or so to make things are stable and as expected.

Thanks for the update.
Ive actually ordered with Giganet for now - they have short contracts (in fact I could have gone for a monthly contract (although I chose yearly). Simply put they were cheaper and answered my rather techy questions directed to them quicker and better than Zen did (which was a little surprising).

But installation hasn't happened yet, they suggest it will be in the next few weeks but if not I may end up changing my mind on ISP - there are more available to order from now (initially it was just giganet and zen that cityfibre announced)

My installation was on Thursday.
Two men (and two vans) from Kelly Communications, on behalf of
CityFibre acting for Zen, arrived at 15.00.
They rodded through the BT duct from the house to the BT chamber,
there was some muck in it but they got through. Then they installed a
CF mini-microduct in the BT duct and connected it to an existing microduct
running from the camber to the adjoining CF cabinet installed last
year. At the house end a short length of brown duct, external grade
presumably, was attached to the mini-microduct and run to a junction box
mounted on the wall, after which a fibre was blown through.
To get the service to the back of the house where it was needed
required a 25m cable, but they were supplied in 20 or 30m lengths, so
5m had to be 'lost.'
I didn't see the ONT being installed. I'd have preferred it to have
been next to, or over, the cable inlet but the guy obviously thought
he was being helpful by putting it next to the ethernet outlets. At
least there's now a desk hiding the cable run along the skirting.
It took just short of two hours and was the eighth install they'd done
that day. They were pleased that they'd been able to use the BT duct,
otherwise they would have had to have trenched the block-paved drive.
Apparently there's a larger external wall box being released but I
don't know if it's large enough to lose another 5m of cable.
The installers were very happy for me to photograph what they were doing. I'm sorry that I missed the connection being made in the CF cabinet.
Download some pics from
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkhvgPvXD0_1ouktMVtodRRD_XNI5g?e...
When first connected the download speed was 1Gb, instead of the 300Mbs that I'd ordered, but when I ran a speed test later the download was 300Mbs.
I also worked out how to connect my Asus DSL-AX82U in preference to the Tecnicolor DGA4134 provided by Zen.

In reply to a post by ParksidePeter:

I also worked out how to connect my Asus DSL-AX82U in preference to the Tecnicolor DGA4134 provided by Zen.

Was that simply a PPPoE based authentication?

Enjoy the new connection and thanks for posting pics of the install.

In reply to a post by ParksidePeter:

I also worked out how to connect my Asus DSL-AX82U in preference to the Tecnicolor DGA4134 provided by Zen.

I thought Zen were using FritzBox now or was that a limited offer when I renewed my VDSL?

Never been a fan of Technicolor, not that I'd use it as a router but the FritzBox I was able to flash OpenWRT on and use as a WiFi Access Point.

Screenshots of my Asus configuration should be self explanatory, download from https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkhvgPvXD0_1ouoyxMOtn3WtR2bpaA?e...
Might help in configuring other makers' devices too.

Zen sent me the Technicolor router a couple of weeks ago so presumably it's now the standard issue.
The interface is not of the best so I can see why you are not keen but it's probably quite competent for most users. Its wifi is the latest variant. I had an Asus mesh configured and didn't want to start again with that.

I believe they've had trouble with supply of Fritz, so the Technicolor is a substitute.

They sent me a Technicolor. Works OK as a broadband router - haven't tried the wifi.

But ... the documentation is sorely lacking

Thanks for the update 🙏

Just for informational purposes, Zen over Cityfibre is not symmetrical everywhere.

We've had two lines installed in separate premises in Eastbourne and the gigabit line is limited to 120mbps upload, whilst the 300mbps download line is limited to 50mbps upload.

These are not business lines, they are residential, so I don't know if that would make a difference.

This is plenty fast for us, but is obviously asymmetrical.

(I have run dozens of speed tests at speedtest.net to verify this and every time each one has come out limited to the above numbers.)

Edited by soilcandidate (Thu 31-Mar-22 15:45:55)

Hi soilcandidate,

I'd encourage you to reach out to Zen Support, I read that there have been some issues on the openreach network where incorrect profiles had been set causing unexpected speeds - I wonder if this is spanning into the CityFibre delivered service as well?

FWIW - My service has been rock solid and I'm really pleased I made the switch over.

That's definitely a mistake on Zens part. Ajays has already confirmed that is is symmetrical everywhere on the Cityfibre network.

I would reach out to Zen about this as something is configured incorrectly.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

That's definitely a mistake on Zens part. Ajays has already confirmed that is is symmetrical everywhere on the Cityfibre network.

I would reach out to Zen about this as something is configured incorrectly.

Current result of my desktop speedtest: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkhvgPvXD0_1pIErd9uVWP4Cxi9png?e...
(308.71 Mbps download/934.87 Mbps upload for those who don't want to click on the link.)
Zen over CityFibre.

Looks like you've got some issues there to resolve on your DL. Was this a wireless or wired test?

Where are you based? You're either in Scotland or suffering from the Zen 'route me around Manchester and the moon' ping of death...

Hi Pheasant, see my other post regarding the tests. All tests on wired (Cat5e cables that have been tested in the past, and worked for well over a year, all runs 10 mtrs or less, and as you know Cat5e specified for Gigabit up to 100 Mtrs)

Not in Scotland, but in Cheshire, about 20 miles from Manchester, but perversely, traceroute's seem to go through London? !

steve@Steves-Mac-mini ~ % traceroute dns.google
traceroute: Warning: dns.google has multiple addresses; using 8.8.8.8
traceroute to dns.google (8.8.8.8), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets
1 192.168.1.1 (192.168.1.1) 0.628 ms 0.291 ms 0.185 ms
2 lo0-0.bng5.thn-lon.zen.net.uk (51.148.77.133) 11.134 ms 10.366 ms 10.311 ms
3 lag-15.p1.thn-lon.zen.net.uk (51.148.73.98) 10.568 ms 10.519 ms
lag-15.p2.thn-lon.zen.net.uk (51.148.73.100) 10.438 ms
4 lag-2.br2.thn-lon.zen.net.uk (51.148.73.155) 10.639 ms 10.615 ms
lag-1.br2.ixn-lon.zen.net.uk (51.148.73.169) 10.223 ms
5 72.14.217.190 (72.14.217.190) 10.213 ms 10.148 ms 9.968 ms
6 * 74.125.242.97 (74.125.242.97) 11.775 ms *
7 dns.google (8.8.8.8) 10.186 ms
142.251.54.33 (142.251.54.33) 10.276 ms
dns.google (8.8.8.8) 10.128 ms

(Above is through my Apple Time capsule router)

And, I think the resolution of issues is down to Zen, not me !!! All problems happened immediately after my (unrequested) GEA migration at 03:15am on 20th March - I changed nothing !

Steve

Are you Zen over Openreach or Cityfibre?

Yes, good point! I am somehow on the wrong thread! I am on Zen.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Looks like you've got some issues there to resolve on your DL. Was this a wireless or wired test?

Where are you based? You're either in Scotland or suffering from the Zen 'route me around Manchester and the moon' ping of death...

The download is correct. That's what I'm paying for. The upload is wrong, but if I run the same (Ookla) Speedtest from my Asus DSL- AX82U router I get a very different result: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkhvgPvXD0_1pJESI-jk-1b37FTH_w?e...
The Ping has now dropped to 11.
I ran a trial with the Zen-provided Technicolor router and got a slightly different answer: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkhvgPvXD0_1pJEQbgQkxLAcnCMzVA?e...
All tests via a wired connection btw. The Technicolor also says that the download speed is 1000Mbps.

In reply to a post by ParksidePeter:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Looks like you've got some issues there to resolve on your DL. Was this a wireless or wired test?

Where are you based? You're either in Scotland or suffering from the Zen 'route me around Manchester and the moon' ping of death...

The download is correct. That's what I'm paying for. The upload is wrong, but if I run the same (Ookla) Speedtest from my Asus DSL- AX82U router I get a very different result: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkhvgPvXD0_1pJESI-jk-1b37FTH_w?e...
The Ping has now dropped to 11.
I ran a trial with the Zen-provided Technicolor router and got a slightly different answer: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkhvgPvXD0_1pJEQbgQkxLAcnCMzVA?e...
All tests via a wired connection btw. The Technicolor also says that the download speed is 1000Mbps.

The ping issue is recognised by the Zen core network design team. There is a recent post here from another thread about it.

The speed profile issue, looks to be related to an incorrect profile being applied to your account by Zen. I don’t think it’s end user equipment related. Again best following that up with Zen directly to resolve.

In reply to a post by SteveBushell999:

Yes, good point! I am somehow on the wrong thread! I am on Zen.

😂 I was wondering

The speed profile issue, looks to be related to an incorrect profile being applied to your account by Zen. I don’t think it’s end user equipment related. Again best following that up with Zen directly to resolve.


I rebooted the ONT between the first and the second test, which must explain the change in Ping speed. I'll try rebooting it again later.

Thanks trillium, I will do so and see what they say. Though the service was advertised as having these upload speeds...

The tech support guy said the following:

"We used to offer symmetrical speeds but now via city fibre we are only able to get limited amount of the upload speed and I believe our networks team have amended profiles for the upload because customers were not getting those upload speeds."

So it looks like we're asymmetrical for the time being at least.

Edited by soilcandidate (Mon 18-Apr-22 14:41:59)

Hi, our CityFibre connections are advertised as asymmetric for the reasons mentioned earlier in this thread. But are in fact delivered as a symmetric service.

If you think an incorrect profile may have been applied to your connection feel free to drop me a private message and I'll look into it for you.

Thank you ajays, I will send you a private message.

Just to say publicly, ajays was able to sort my issue. Gone from 125mbps hard limit upload to over 900mbps on our gigabit connection. Yet to check the 300/50 connection as I'm at work, but I'm confident he'll have sorted that too.

So others were correct, there seems to be no need for the connection not to be symmetrical.

Many thanks to him.