In reply to a post by Tacitus:

I'm not sure at what point moving to WBC would be a proposition - AFAIK it depends largely on the number of subscribers. Maybe Zen aren't large enough to move to WBC, but too big to move to another supplier given the problems that would be caused.

What I was really trying to get at is whether Zen have any more of BTs diagnostic tools available to them than do other BT Wholesale based suppliers who would be on WBMC on which BT appear to have removed any meaningful diagnostic tools.

Zen use both - I have lines on WBC & WBMC, from a EU point of view the lack of control & tools on either appears woefully poor when matched side by side with the level of tools and control the LLU providers offer.

Zen for example could talk to BE, Sky & TalkTalk who will all hand off from there own networks - all they need to do is put in the GBN and connect it to there existing core. That way there would be customer choice.

Lets remember Zen are a good ISP - I would guess people would stay with them if there was a way to bypass BT's systems and problems (See the threads about exchange slow downs etc, and the huge number of outage notices) I'd rather pay Zen and get someone elses LLU service happy knowing that I still call Zen if theres a problem, I still pay Zen, and Zen gain much greater control over my service settings.

BT are doing things with new tools, but there in no rush to role those out to the ISP's at the moment. I gather people like Zen, A&A and Enta are all working hard with BT to try and make things better all round, but this is a slow process and as been shown by both Enta & A&A they had to offer an alternate choice to there existing customer bases to stop them from leaving. (I know its not quite as cut & dry as that)

In reply to a post by IamQ:

Zen use both - I have lines on WBC & WBMC, from a EU point of view the lack of control & tools on either appears woefully poor when matched side by side with the level of tools and control the LLU providers offer.

I wasn't aware you could use both - I thought it was one or the other.

In reply to a post by IamQ:

Lets remember Zen are a good ISP - I would guess people would stay with them if there was a way to bypass BT's systems and problems (See the threads about exchange slow downs etc, and the huge number of outage notices) I'd rather pay Zen and get someone elses LLU service happy knowing that I still call Zen if theres a problem, I still pay Zen, and Zen gain much greater control over my service settings.

I agree they are a good ISP, but you could say much the same about NewNet/A&A/iDNet etc. All are being hampered by BT. Although I'm not with Zen they would be at the top of my list were I to move, since the LLU possibilities at my exchange are very limited. That may change if TT bring their wholesale Broadband product to the exchange as I wouldn't want to go fully LLU. It's debatable whether that would give my any significant improvement since it's the line that's the problem.

In reply to a post by IamQ:

......as been shown by both Enta & A&A they had to offer an alternate choice to there existing customer bases to stop them from leaving. (I know its not quite as cut & dry as that)

I think all the BT based ISPs are in the same boat

In reply to a post by Tacitus:

I agree they are a good ISP, but you could say much the same about NewNet/A&A/iDNet etc. All are being hampered by BT. Although I'm not with Zen they would be at the top of my list were I to move, since the LLU possibilities at my exchange are very limited. That may change if TT bring their wholesale Broadband product to the exchange as I wouldn't want to go fully LLU. It's debatable whether that would give my any significant improvement since it's the line that's the problem.

It depends - the line may have the same underlying problem by at least you won't always get bashed to death with an over aggressive DLM. (Not to be said the some LLU providers do there own DLM thing which can be almost as bad)

In reply to a post by IamQ:

......as been shown by both Enta & A&A they had to offer an alternate choice to there existing customer bases to stop them from leaving. (I know its not quite as cut & dry as that)

In reply to a post by Tacitus:

I think all the BT based ISPs are in the same boat

Indeed and this is why more of them are in talks with OLO's about using a non BTWS platforms.

Edited by IamQ (Sun 12-Jun-11 19:46:25)

We supply both. We have quite a few nodes over the country.

When it comes to WBC and WBMC the major difference is who has control over the direction the traffic can take. For WBC if a node drops we can redirect from Leeds to Manchester, or from One London link to the other, however with WBMC BTW are the ones to decide.

In reply to a post by Tacitus:

I think all the BT based ISPs are in the same boat

We are and we are not. It depends on how much the ISP wants to help BTW and OpenReach change and adapt to the current climate.

We deal with BTW on a daily basis along with other ISP's and help them understand why things are breaking and from an ISP point of vieq, how we would like to see things change.

Over the past 12months. new tools have become available, new methods for raising and fixing issues, new teams are now there for us, new ways to comunicate with BTW, all these things take time.

From a customer point of view this can be seen in a reduction of time it takes to fix a fault. Not always the quickest, however that is then upto the ISP to work on internally.

In reply to a post by Azzaka:

When it comes to WBC and WBMC the major difference is who has control over the direction the traffic can take. For WBC if a node drops we can redirect from Leeds to Manchester, or from One London link to the other, however with WBMC BTW are the ones to decide.

Thanks for the reply

With WBC don't you also get tools to check line quality to aid in fault diagnosis? IOW it's not just a matter of routing, you are able to identify line problems.

Also I'm curious as to who gets a WBMC or a WBC line. Are there any criteria or does the customer get what comes? If (say) I join Zen as an ordinary domestic customer, is there any way I would be able to tell which I'm on? For example I'm on vanilla max, so I'm guessing I would get the short end of whatever was on offer simply due to BT.

Righto Apologies all. I have been corrected.

The difference is right however my explanation was wrong. It should have been the following:

With WBC Nodes of which there is 20, the traffic is effectively Hard Steered. ie: It has to hit one of the nodes and this cannot differ. Once on the specific node we can then route the traffic to a gateway on that node.

WBMC however will hit the closet WBC node, however the route it takes will be chosen by BTW's systems and is not controlled by us in anyway. Again once it hits the WBC Node we can then steer the traffic to any one of our gateways on that node.

~amended gateways~

Kindest Regards,

Edited by deleted (Tue 14-Jun-11 11:53:38)

The tools we have are the same for WBMC and WBC.

As for knowing which you are on, this makes no differences to the packages, as long as you are connected to the 21CN platform.

When migrating from the 20CN platform to the 21CN platform, we will leave your line as an 8mb service as some modems will not use ADSL 2 or 2+ and some will also have adverse effects on the 21CN 2+ connections due to line length.

Once migrated and the customer is happy with the line, they can then migrate to the ADSL 2+ package via the customer portal. You will know if you are migrated to the 21CN as email will be sent advising this.

If you are a new customer and your exchange is 21CN enabled then you be automaticllay enabled for ADSL 2+. If your exhange is not 21CN enabled then you will be placed on the 20CN platform.

Hope this helps.

In reply to a post by Azzaka:

The tools we have are the same for WBMC and WBC.

Thanks for the informative reply.

However, I'm sorry to push you on this, but are the tools supplied by BT Wholesale as a result of you being able to supply connections via WBC? IOW other ISPs who for whatever reason (size?, no of subscribers?) are unable to supply connections via WBC, but are only able to do it via WBMC, will not have these tools available to them?

Edited by Tacitus (Tue 14-Jun-11 13:36:20)

I'm glad I looked on this forum - not been on here for years but the service I received from Zen today makes me feel the same as you. I am questioning why i pay a premium when Zen have to rely on BT to say whether the line works or not. Technical support just follow a script and are not interested on the fact I've had nearly a 33% sync drop.

I was told today the line works fine even when my Router says my connection is now 1600 and it has been 2400 for nearly a year - I was given the classic line of test your internal wiring, router etc even when told that I have just plugged the Billion 7800N (good router/ modem) into the master socket and I got the same connection speed. The technical support person just argued the point!!

You pay for a service to a company that clearly have no way of solving issues....so thinking a switching to a less premium product myself as I might as well pay less to a different company as they will be just a restricted as Zen

Just interesting to see so many posts on here about the same fact.