You're aware that if you use FTTC again exactly the same thing will happen with the new ISP and they'll be completely unable to do anything to improve your latency, right?

If you need an ISP that has end to end control to ensure your latency isn't increased by line management your only option is to take an LLU service. Sky interleave and run line management, Be and O2 are going to be assimilated into Sky's packages in the not too distant future, your options are a service that resells TalkTalk Business or one that resells Cable and Wireless.

hmm maybe but at least i wont be paying over the odds for a third party service. as for cable and wireless or talk talk ...please i would rather use plusnet!

Edited by cssuk (Sat 11-May-13 14:11:36)

In reply to a post by cssuk:

hmm maybe but at least i wont be paying over the odds for a third party service. as for cable and wireless or talk talk ...please i would rather use plusnet!

What's wrong with the wholesale products of Cable and Wireless and TalkTalk Business?

tbh its not an option i would consider due to there own customer complaints nor is it something i want to discuss on this thread, this thread is about my unhappiness with Zen, perhaps you should try ti IGNITE the topic on your own thread

Hi,

There isn't an LLU option for FTTC; the closest option is GEA - but that still uses the Openreach FTTC cabinets and DSLAMs and therefore DLM, so no ISP has a means to control the specific configuration of a customer's line.

Even without LLU, via BT on ADSL/ADSL2+, we could opt out of interleaving - but sadly that isn't something available on FTTC.

regards,
Phil.

Edited by deleted (Mon 13-May-13 10:14:12)

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

You're aware that if you use FTTC again exactly the same thing will happen with the new ISP and they'll be completely unable to do anything to improve your latency, right?

If you need an ISP that has end to end control to ensure your latency isn't increased by line management your only option is to take an LLU service. Sky interleave and run line management, Be and O2 are going to be assimilated into Sky's packages in the not too distant future, your options are a service that resells TalkTalk Business or one that resells Cable and Wireless.

To confirm the above - at TalkTalk Business DLM is switched off by default on our LLU copper pair DSL lines. On our LLU lines (90%+ of the lines we provide) we have full manual control of all LLU options - interleaving off/on/amount of interleaving applied, hard-set SNR margins, etc. DLM can be activated if required, though from experience most lines perform better with it off.

As Phil says, on FTTC lines we don't have the same control options available as we go through Openreach DSLAMs in FTTC cabinets.

Sorry I wasn't clear, first paragraph did mention the gentleman taking FTTC again and that it didn't matter who it was from. Aware that VULA will be the closest to LLU available over FTTx.

you confident aaisp would fob him off also?

surely the right thing to do is zen open a support ticket to BTw.

stating line is unstable require investigation. Proof is that line is interleaved and interleaving is applied when line instability detected.

The debate here seems to be tho that zen are stating interleaving can be applied in a stable condition or they are stating line instability is not a fault.

I did read zens policy on faults in their t&c's and it scared me right off, its like a polar opposite to aaisp's policy.

Still waiting on zen's pricing for their own backhaul pricing (only reason I held of aaisp for now) but their fault policy will make it tough for me to sign up I think.

also as I understand flipping between different products reset's DLM without an engineer visit, so switch to 40/10 from 80/20 and DLM is reset.

Edited by Chrysalis (Sat 18-May-13 17:49:59)

yeah seems always the story DLM off = better.

What I think would be a reasonable policy is openreach allow DLM to be disabled, they provide an API for isp's to make changes and in return the isp's agree if they report a fault DLM has to be turned on first whilst fault investigated. That would be a compromise. As I think BT/openreach just utilise DLM to mitigate faults. Some people have FTTC service with very high interleaving levels applied so probably have running service on quite dodgy lines but DLM has in those instances possibly reduced the number of fault calls.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

yeah seems always the story DLM off = better.

What I think would be a reasonable policy is openreach allow DLM to be disabled, they provide an API for isp's to make changes and in return the isp's agree if they report a fault DLM has to be turned on first whilst fault investigated. That would be a compromise. As I think BT/openreach just utilise DLM to mitigate faults. Some people have FTTC service with very high interleaving levels applied so probably have running service on quite dodgy lines but DLM has in those instances possibly reduced the number of fault calls.

Funny you should mention this; when I worked at Zen we did some work with BT Wholesale that showed that around a third of the faults we submitted to BT Wholesale (BTW only, not BT Openreach via BTW) were legitimate requests to hard-set SNR margin (effectively turning DLM off) for unstable lines where DLM was setting the SNR margin too low for the line to remain stable.

We submitted to BTW that based on what we'd seen, if ISPs had the ability to manually hard-set SNR margin themselves for these particular lines we wouldn't need to raise faults to BTW on them to get SNR values changed, resulting in a far quicker fix for the customer and less work (and associated costs) for both ISPs and BTW. A tool was then released to ISPs enabling them to 'soft-set' SNR margin, but not hard-set it - if DLM decides the values set in the tool aren't suitable, DLM overides the SNR margin value set by the ISP, which again leads to the line being unstable necessitating a fault to be raised to BTW.